Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
12/6/2019 7:27:02 PM
Posted: 5/22/2003 9:31:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 10:32:02 PM EST by obershutze916]
Below are the results of the 7.62 X 39 accuracy tests that RS39 and I performed over the last couple of months. All groups were shot at 50 yards to cut down on walking time in changing targets. Enjoy.

S&B

MAK 90 - 4.5"
Norinco Hunter - 5"
SAR 1 - 3.25"
SAR 1 - 2.75"
Average = 3.875"



Yugo 87 -

MAK 90 - 3.375"

Note that this round was also fired from an SAR 1 but the rifle really did not like the ammo and grouped over 8 inches.


95 Bosnian

Norinco Hunter - 3.125"
SAR 1 - 2"
SAR 1 - 2.75"
Average = 2.625"


77 Yugo.

SAR 1 - 2.25"
SAR 1 - 3.125"
Norinco hunter - 2"
MAK 90 - 2.75"
Average = 2.53"



Norinco Steel core

MAK 90 - 4"
SAR 1 - 2"
SAR 1 - 3.625"
Average = 3.208"



East German

MAK 90 - 4.5"
SAR 1 - 1.75"
SAR 1 - 2.437"
Norinco Hunter 2"
Average = 2.672"



Wolf FMJ

MAK 90* - 7.875"
SAR 1 - 2.5"
SAR 1* - 5"
SAR 1 - 7.25"
Average = 5.656"
* Note, the MAK 90 turned in a 3" group if reduced to 4 shots with a flyer, and the noted SAR 1 shot a 2.75" group if only four shots were counted. This supports our testing that the Wolf FMJ appears to shoot poorly and inconsistanly.



WOLF HP

MAK 90 - 7.25"
SAR 1 - 2.75"
SAR 1 - 2.5"
Norinco hunter - 3.875"
Average = 4.09"

Note, the MAK 90 shot a 4.125" group if only 4 shots were counted, and the first SAR 1 shot a 1.875" group if only 4 shots were counted. Although better than the FMJ, the Wolf brand showed more in inconsistancies than other brands.



WOLF 154gr SP

Norinco Hunter - 6"
MAK 90 - 3.125"
SAR 1 - 2.875"
SAR 1 - 2.5"
Average = 3.625"
Note the Norinco Hunter shot a 5" group if only four shots are counted. Also of note, in one SAR, the group printed very high on the target, and the other SAR, the group printed very low on the target. groups were similar, but POI was about 8 inches different between the two rifles. This round seams to be the saving grace for Wolf ammo.


Barnaul HP

MAK 90 - 3.625"
SAR 1 - 1.25"
SAR 1 - 2"
Norinco hunter - 2.375"
Average = 2.31"

Note, the first SAR 1 shot a .625" group if only 4 shots are counted.


Barnaul FMJ

MAK 90 - 2.125"
SAR 1 - 1.25"
SAR 1 - 1.75"
SAR 1 - 2.25"
Average = 1.84"

I think we have a keeper here folks.


Barnaul SP

Norinco Hunter - 2.5"
SAR 1 - 1.5"
SAR 1 - 2"
SAR 1 - 2.5"
Average = 2.125"

Note on this ammo. We also tested the Brown Bear ammo (also a 125 grain SP) that is made by Barnaul. I have lost the data in the shuffel here, but it shot about 25% larger groups. this made us think about what the BB line really is. It shot well, but not as well as the "same" ammo in the Barnaul box. We wonder if this is ammo that does not meet the quality standards to put into their own boxes or if it is something else. It could have just been a variation in lots as well, but was signifcant enough to note.


Siver Bear match (Barnaul)

MAK 90 - 1.125"
SAR 1 - 2.312"
SAR 1 - 2.875"
SAR 1 - 2.125"
Average = 2.11"
Note that the first SAR 1 shot a four shot group of 1.75", and the second shot a four shot group of 1.625". While over all fine groups. A little more consistancy would have made this the best of all groups averaging under 2".


Klimovsk

MAK 90 - 4.75"
SAR 1 - 2.875"
SAR 1 - 4.25"
SAR 1 - 2.5"
Average = 3.59"
Note that the MAK 90 shot a 4 shot group of 1.625", and the second SAR 1 shot a 4 shot group of 2". Again, flyers opened up the groups consistantly.


Uly FMJ

SAR 1 - 2.375"
SAR 1 - 2.438"
Average - 2.41"

This type of ammo was not tested in the first round as I did not realize I had cases of it until the second round of testing. It did seam to very consistant ammo.


Uly HP

SAR 1 - 2.25"
SAR 1 - 2.25"
Average = 2.25"

Only one round of testing for the same reasons as above. The second SAR put a four shot group into 1.125". Still a consistant brand of ammo.


South African

SAR 1 - 3"
SAR 1 - 3"
Average = 3"


Lapua

SAR 1 - 3.5"
SAR 1 - 2.25"
SAR 1 - 2"
SAR 1 - 1.688"
Average = 2.36"

Note that the first SAR had a 4 shot group of 2.25", and the third one had a 4 shot group of 1". Very fine ammo, but no better than MUCH cheap Russian ammo for the AK.


Federal American Eagle FMJ

SAR 1 - 2.25"
SAR 1 - 1.75"
Average = 2"

Remington SP

SAR 1 - 3.625"
SAR 1 - 3.875"
Average = 3.75"

Winchester Super X SP

SAR 1 - 2.4375"
SAR 1 - 1.375"
Average = 1.91" (rounded)

I am still in denial about this one. I refuse to belive that Crapchester shot this well.

[Al Gore] I want a recount, or three or four [/Al Gore]

Cheetah

SAR 1 - 1.5"
SAR 1 - 2.875"
Average = 2.18"

We were limited in our testing of this round by the amount on hand, but it appeared to be a promising round.
Special thenks to Njogi for the donation of this ammo.

This is it guys. It was hard work but someone had to do it.

The first round of 5.45 accuracy testing is done, with the second round scheduled after Bulletfest.

We hope this is helpfull to all of you.




Link Posted: 5/22/2003 11:02:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 11:07:43 AM EST by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 11:23:34 AM EST
Must waste all junk Wolf ammo while at Bulletfest.

Accuracy test afterwards yes. Unless someone would like to walk out and reset the targets for us every 1.1 seconds!

The Hunter was a strange rifle. It had a 20 Inch barrel, but the way the trigger cam back so your finger could reach it reminded me of a medievil crossbow. I liked the peep sights, but they were way too large. The SAR rifles were ergonomicly much better IMO.

Link Posted: 5/22/2003 11:27:05 AM EST


The Romanians were kicking in Mao's penis! I bet Mao is currently killing all the employees at Norinco as I type. Perhaps barrel wear had something to do with it? Obe916, how many rounds were put through each gun before each test? Also, what was the cleaning routine before and after each test?

Barnual wins hands down unless you want to pay out the ass for Winchester. I wonder if that round is made by IMI, like the Q3131A. Winchester doesn't make all their brass and bullets in Alton, IL any more due to capacity.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 11:33:25 AM EST
Definitely not a good advertisement for Norinco products!

Interesting stats though, thanks for the report.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 11:41:27 AM EST
Thanks for the info.!
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 11:56:11 AM EST
Interesting, good info though. Supported or offhand? Any modifications to the rifles?

For stock guns that seems about par for the course in my experiences, my Red Star triggers have, however, given me that kind of accuracy at 100-150m from similar weapons, namely a MAK90 and a SAR1.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 12:21:24 PM EST
What? Wolf inconsistant? the test was flawed!!!! kidding!
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 1:00:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 1:02:17 PM EST by obershutze916]
Honestly I was surprised by the poor performance of WOLF. After all, it is made at Tula. They have been around a long time. Besides, all commie ammo is the same right??? Guess not.

The rifles were shot from a cheap rest from a table.

The Norinco Hunter was stock as far as I know, and its performance, I think was due to its' modifications to the "Hunter" configureation.

One SAR had and RSA trigger group in it, but has less than 10 rounds through it at the time of the testing. It did have a problem with an out of spec trigger pin hole causeing the trigger to become inconsistant with a different pull each time. I know it had an effect on the groups, and I had a lot of called flyers.

The MAK 90 is used but with less than 2K rounds. The trigger is a mix of the best parts I took out of the SAR rifles. Not as nice as the origional trigger, but nice.

I am not quite sure on the specs on RS39's SAR.As far as number of rounds fired, I have no idea, but the tests show about 2/3 of the targets.

More background info later....... time to feed the brat.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 1:36:23 PM EST
Personally knowing both Ober and RS39, all I gotta know is who has barnaul in stock. Bulletfest is coming and never let it be daid that I don't feed my rifles the best?
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 3:21:26 PM EST
Themao, I don't know about RS39, but my cleaning consist of a toal complete take down and cleaning of every part I can take out after each shooting. Yes, I know its an AK, but it's how I was trained.

I was surprised at how picky the MAK 90 was with ammo. A few types I couldn't even keep on paper, other types shot realitivly well. My SAR was a little picky, but not having been broken in might have had a little to do with that.

Shotar, I know that the Ammo store here in Canton should be getting in Barnaul HP very soon, and Dans Ammo www.dansammo.com has it in stock. $48 / 500 shipped.

I would have liked to clean the rifles half way through the second round of tests, but we were out there long enough. RS39 probably would have shot me if I had spent 45 minutes cleaning my rifle.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 5:15:32 PM EST

77 Yugo.

SAR 1 - 2.25"
SAR 1 - 3.125"
Norinco hunter - 2"
MAK 90 - 2.75"
Average = 4.53"



Something is not quite right with this one...

The average is larger than any of the components.

Great info. Thanks for the tests. I'm eagerly awaiting the 5.45 tests.

Kent
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 5:19:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 6:41:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/22/2003 6:43:04 PM EST by njogi]
Great Work and Thanks for test work! Ob916 and RS39.

Ob916 .. Are you going to pin the data in the Ammunition Section ?

Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:36:57 PM EST
Interesting that the Mak-90 shot both the best (1.125) and worst (7.875).
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:48:13 PM EST
That is some awsome info.

Thanks for taking the time to give us this great data.

I am sure it was hard duty, and you hated every minute of it!
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 10:36:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Green_Canoe:

77 Yugo.

SAR 1 - 2.25"
SAR 1 - 3.125"
Norinco hunter - 2"
MAK 90 - 2.75"
Average = 4.53"



Something is not quite right with this one...

The average is larger than any of the components.



Fixed. Oops.

Njogi, I will put this up in the ammo section once it has run its course here. Again thanks for the ammo. Despite my admited bias towards it. It did shoot very well.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 2:48:18 AM EST
Over a few sessions we hopefully averaged out any key variations in our shooting skills. 50 yds helped not only with target set time, but kept this more of an ammo test and less of a vision test. The Norinco Hunter is not represented in all tests because the person who sold it to me last year asked for it back as part of a HKG3 clone deal. Playing with the screw tension for the full-size handguard over the gas tube and bbl below would have probably helped harmonics. We suspect that variation in headspace may be the cause of the SARs occasionally different behavior, but that measurement will have to wait.

There is a strong case for Russian ammo all coming with powder from the same plants, steel from the same plants, and staff from the same training schools. But the potential for variation in equipment setup and maintainence in real, so quality control may be the reason for the differences.
And the Western ammo was a big surprise; too bad it is so much more expensive.

I'd guess that my SAR1 has 8000 rnds thru it. I do not save my box tops.

And cleaning the guns part-way thru does not represent real-world AK conditions. I may be German, but I am not that anal. That Austrian guy must have grown up too close to Switzerland, or his French border wife is training him to be difficult

Link Posted: 5/23/2003 3:32:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 3:54:29 PM EST
I agree with RS39, I am more into real world tests than nice clean lab teast. It would have proved little to allow for full barrel cooling and a full cleaning between changing ammo types.

We didn't have to invade Minerva, all the French in town heard the shooting and came out to us and surrendered!

Bob you are invited for the 5.45 testing, first round already shows interesting results. Don't worry, your Russian ammo is safe. RotDorn has already sent me some of his. I guess we know who the good staff member is around here.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 4:09:04 PM EST
You already do the farming for us and let us hunt on your land, so why invade? Although we do fly black RC helicopters there to keep folks nervous

I should add that we were very consistent in rotating guns with every group shot for consistent bbl temps.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 6:02:12 PM EST
Gentlemen: I'm impressed and offer my compliments. Time to burn lacquer.
Whats the difference between S. African and Cheetah?
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 8:45:26 PM EST
The South African is 1988 Dated Ammo that came is clear Battle Packs probably packed by Denel, yet Boxes are Trapozoid boxes like the 5.56 SA , yet have nothing labeled on the white Sticky. The Cheetah is 1997 Dated Ammo packed in Commercial Boxes of 40 rnds, in 1440 rnd Wooden Crates. The Cheetah is made in Zimbabwe by Zimbabwe Defence Industries, using Norinco Machinery. Cheetah groups better in my AR 7.62 Upper. On the AKs the results publish shows that too.

Both function good, both are Berdan Primed and both have sealed primers, Green on SA and Red on Zimb.

Cheetah is still available and SA is rare find now.

Seriously, I prefer these brass Ammo on AR because the primers are not as hard as on the Wolf, and hence the Russian Ammo requires 2nd Hit on my Ar..
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:35:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/23/2003 10:54:36 PM EST by msh]
Well done. You've done all he kind of stuff I think about doing but never get to it when at the range. 50 yards was a good choice.
That dang Wolf, my flyers flew farther, but such a lovely bullet for an AK, sleek, boat tailed and made to tumble.
Link Posted: 5/28/2003 3:17:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By obershutze916:

I was surprised at how picky the MAK 90 was with ammo. A few types I couldn't even keep on paper, other types shot realitivly well. My SAR was a little picky, but not having been broken in might have had a little to do with that.




I'm not surprised. I once owned two Mak-90s and sold them due to lousy accuracy. My own experience agrees with yours w.r.t. the SAR-1 and by extension the WASR-10. I have a WASR-10 hi-cap that is the most accurate AK that I own, with consistent 1.5 MOA using Barnaul and Silver Bear Match.

Nice work on the report, good info, and I appreciate your sharing the data.

Noah
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 9:37:15 PM EST
Very informative...thank you for your time and effort to compile this.
It will be very useful in about 2 weeks time for me.

Again, thanks,

Y-
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 2:33:37 AM EST
Y- Glad you like it. We also started the 5.45, but with just one Bulgy 74 kit build. A very nice gun but not enough potential variation in bbl and headspacing to start publishing results. We'll get a few SAR2s at least added to round 2, and I'd like to toss a Krink in the mix for a SBR comparison.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 7:35:08 AM EST
Great job OBERSHUTZE916, you replied to my question on Parallax Bills site. Thank you very much for this info, I have an ex.cond. Yugo SKS and a SAR-1 and a WASR-10 Hi-Cap that all need a good shootin'....Thanks again!
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 9:38:52 AM EST
No problem, it was tough work, but RS39 and I took one for the team.
Link Posted: 9/2/2003 10:36:54 AM EST
You can get Barnaul 7.62 x 39 ammo at sportsmansguide.com. They only have the JHP and SP though. They have the best prices on ammo that I have found so far as while.
Link Posted: 12/30/2003 3:24:56 PM EST
www.midwayusa
has it for 41.67 per 500rds plus shipping,all bullet types.
Link Posted: 2/21/2004 1:07:25 PM EST
I got 500-rds of Barnaul 123-grain for $47 off SOG...

That is some good ammo, and great ammo for the price. Shoots really well, nice groupings.
Link Posted: 3/5/2004 11:05:41 AM EST
very informative,thanx
Link Posted: 4/10/2004 7:10:43 AM EST
Thank You
Link Posted: 4/25/2004 11:10:27 AM EST
Very informative -- Been getting Barnual at Dan's here locally and I saw that AIM has Uly at $69/1000 for the next few days, which is awesome compared to most who are charging about the same for 500 to 700 rounds depending.

A762x39Russ Russian 7.62x39 124grn Hollow Point


New Production, Russian, Sapsan, 7.62x39 Ammunition! 124grn, Hollow Point, Steel case, and Non-Corrosive. 2,330fps. Packaged 20rds/box, 1,000rds/case. Sold as 1,000rd case only.
SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY OFFER! Offer good thru 04/28/04 only. Normally $69.95ea while supplies last.


Introductory Offer! 1,000rd case: $65.00
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:11:41 AM EST
Just shot some of the Silver Bear 123gr "Match". I was zeroing a PK-AV on an SA85M. Shot a 3" group at 100 yds. Best group I've ever got out of a 7.62X39 AK. Only shot 100 rds, but I bought a case. Price was about $95.00/1000 from Ammunition Store including shipping from OH to MI.
Seems like good ammo.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 1:13:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 1:15:16 PM EST by emm]
So, it looks like the 7.62 x 39 doesn't come close to being as accurate as the AR 15 in 5.56?
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 1:33:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By emm:
So, it looks like the 7.62 x 39 doesn't come close to being as accurate as the AR 15 in 5.56?



Really? It's hard to make a cartridge that has the trajectory of a rainbow shoot accurately past 300 yards.

7.62x39 wasn't made (obviously) to compete with the .223. It was made to put lead out there quickly and put joules on target.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 4:34:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/6/2004 6:07:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By WildWes:
Definitely not a good advertisement for Norinco products!

Interesting stats though, thanks for the report.



Or wolf, but we already knew wolf was crap to begin with, thats why its so much fun to bumpfire, you dont plan on hitting anything with it anyways.
Link Posted: 11/18/2004 10:20:57 PM EST
Will have some comparison with Barnaul (blue box) and Magtech FMJ later this month
Link Posted: 11/19/2004 1:53:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/16/2005 10:47:49 AM EST
Next round ask around for diferent brands of ammo that you dont have and i will contribute.

Robotizing,
Link Posted: 2/23/2005 1:24:42 AM EST
Very good page.
Link Posted: 2/26/2005 4:05:11 AM EST
The Silver Bear Match that I have says that is was made in the Ulyanovsk Machine Tool Plant.

How would this stuff compare with the Silver Bear Match made by Barnaul?
Link Posted: 2/28/2005 3:48:17 PM EST
The Ulyanovsk made Match Silver Bear has the nipple on the end of the bullet, right? Barnaul doesn't make such a bullet nor do they plan to.

No comparison.

Y-
Top Top