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Posted: 1/18/2008 7:33:17 AM EST
I'm preparing to home manganese phosphate my new Yugo barrel for my kit, and mostly have used the 2 following links for my info (two threads from same site):
Home brew parkerizing
Manganese phosphate finishing
In the links you will see a picture of Jasco etching phosphoric acid someone has used.

After some hesitation (because it looked soapy in the bottle) I picked up this at my local Home Depot:
http://www.scottgreene.net/mypics/firearms/parkerizing%202.jpg
It's less than $15.

This was just a 1st experiment, so I did very rough approximations but put a small amount (less than 1/2 oz) of the above etching liquid in about 1/2 quart of tap water, added a dime-size piece of steel wool, about 2 teaspoons of manganese dioxide powder (pottery supply shop) in a stainless pot, and heated to 175-185 degrees.

I did varying levels of metal prep on stuff I had lying around, and put each into the pot about 20 minutes each, or until they stopped fizzing. The liquid first fizzes the steel wool until it reaches some saturation, and some recommend you season it further with small metal pieces before you put your best metal in. That seems right because although the first things I put in were the best-prepared with degreasing and bead blasting, it was the later peices that were progressively darker.

Below on the left are three nails. The first (left) one is how they started. The second was bead blasted prior to parkerization. The third I only sprayed with carb cleaner and wiped with paper towel prior to manganese parking. The middle nail is darker here because the zinc or rust on the right-hand one converted to blue-green powder, almost the green cosmoline finish some people strive for.

http://www.scottgreene.net/mypics/firearms/parkerizing%201.jpg

The pry bar on the left and the needle-nose pliers were both bead-blasted, and they were the first peices in. In spite of their better prep, they came out lighter than the wirecutters, which I very briefly blasted. They were the last in and came out much darker. All tools were rusted bright steel prior to this. Sfter a hot water rinse, I wiped on a light oil and then wiped off the excess.

This was a sloppy first go just to see if the $12 etching liquid was capable of this, and I'm fairly impressed with the result. It probably took me 90 minutes total and cost $15. A bit cheaper than the $250 kit I was considering, and that bottle of liquid is enough for 128 gallons of manganese phosphating liquid!
Link Posted: 1/18/2008 7:56:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/18/2008 7:59:22 AM EST by Rob72]
I wish you hadn't shown me that. I'm really tempted to go strip the Lauercoat I applied over blue, and re-do. sigh......hey
Link Posted: 1/18/2008 8:30:01 AM EST
Great job. I've really been wanting to try home parkerizing but was always afraid it'd be a waste of money, but you've proven me wrong.

What about the sandblaster? Thats another cost. Are there any cheap chinese made sandblasters that I can find for this purpose exclusively?
Link Posted: 1/18/2008 8:43:32 AM EST
I already had an air compressor, so I just needed to buy the blasting cabinet (it comes with the blasting gun). It was $100 at Harbor Freight, plus the return trip for exchange because it was broken, plus $10 in silicon (so far) to fix the sand leaks.
Link Posted: 1/18/2008 9:19:57 AM EST
What does a cheap compressor run for?
Link Posted: 1/19/2008 6:58:41 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By kingfish:
What does a cheap compressor run for?


Probably $200. Some say you don't need to blast first, but most seem to recommend it.
Link Posted: 1/19/2008 12:43:20 PM EST
So the Klean strip prep and etch was your phosphoric acid componet in the mix?
Link Posted: 1/19/2008 5:22:52 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By OPFORMark:
So the Klean strip prep and etch was your phosphoric acid componet in the mix?


Yes. About $12/gallon, and it only takes 1oz for each gallon of water.
Link Posted: 1/21/2008 2:33:16 PM EST
Yesterday I used the above recipe on the new/white Yugo barrel. I was worried for a while after I put the barrel in because it didn't bubble much at all.

I wiped the barrel with mineral spirits once then bead blasted once. Color match is good.

BTW, foam earplugs work fine (the stiff yellow cylindrical ones) to plug the ends of the barrel while phosphating. The solution penetrated them less than 1/4 inch. You can cover the gas port by wrapping with a strip of duct tape while phosphating, too.

http://www.scottgreene.net/mypics/firearms/Parkerizing%203.JPG
Link Posted: 1/26/2008 9:47:56 AM EST
Good results. I have had a difficult time locating the manganese phosphate locally.

buckmeister
Link Posted: 1/26/2008 9:52:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By buckmeister:
Good results. I have had a difficult time locating the manganese phosphate locally.

buckmeister


I got mine from a local pottery supply. Took some time searching the phone book and had to call a few places before I got a number for a place that carried it, but it was indeed available locally.

Link Posted: 1/26/2008 10:35:41 PM EST
Manganese dioxide is also the main ingredient in alkaline batteries. When I did a google search on it, I found a youtube video of how to take it out.
Link Posted: 1/27/2008 3:39:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/27/2008 3:40:19 AM EST by LonghunterCO]
What are you using for your parkerizing tank?

Great job by the way.
Link Posted: 1/27/2008 10:19:33 PM EST
A junk store had a number of old food-service trays. I got a wide heavy-gauge dented one with lid for $20, and a long one just perfect for AK barrels for about $5. With the small one, one gallon is plenty to cover the barrel. I cut up a chromed coat-hanger to suspend the barrel.
Link Posted: 1/28/2008 7:31:28 AM EST
I got a lb of Manganese Dioxide from the local pottery supply for $5. Its used as a glaze for ceramics. Worth calling around to local pottery places. cause for $5 I got an entire ziploc bag full, which is more than you'll probly ever need.
Link Posted: 1/29/2008 8:28:06 AM EST
i have an old stainless soda keg i cut(cut off wheel on a grinder) in half, vertical and horizontal to make trough out of, overlapped the two ends and welded (stick) stainless rods , cut some wood blocks out for keg to set on, cut piece of plywood out for a top(lid) drilled hole in one end for temp gauge(turkey thermometer) , i heat it with a weed burner(big blow torch) from harbor freight less than 30 bucks uses propane tank , as for soda keg it is long enough, side folder do not fit well in it important to keep everything submerged all the time,it works have finished numerous arms with it
Link Posted: 2/2/2008 9:01:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/2/2008 9:22:02 AM EST by pyroclayman]
I only have one local hardware store (Ace) and the big box stores (Home Depot, Lowes) are a 60 mile round trip.

But I found a product at my Ace store that mighe (hope) work. It's "Skyco OSPHO" says it "stops rust, prpares rusted suraces for painting, WARNING contains PHOSPHORIC ACID" Unfortunatley it does not say how much. think I'll start fooling around with it today.

P

Ok, back with an edit after doing some searching on this product, and some thoughts. This stuff, according to the MSDS sheet is 75%. Was the percentage mentioned on the product at the top of this thread? I don't remember seeing that. I wonder if I should go with the same mix, 1/2 oz per quart h20.

Oh here is a thought. I have used Shooters Solutions products with great results. It's kinda spendy though, at least for me.

The Shooters Solutions guy brags that his product is superiour for several reasons, one of them being that his so lutions contain Nickel.

I'm no metalurgist or chemist, but it sounds reasonable, since we know nickel is harder than kelseys nuts, and corrosion resistant, right?

Well, most of us that are trying home brew parking are aquiring our manganese at a pottery supply store. I happen to be a potter by trade. (shooter and hobby gunbuilder/smith by obsession)

So I have the mang. But what I'd bet not to many guys (other than potters) is that nickle is also a common pottery chemical. (we use both the manganese and nickel in glaze formulation)

Nickel comes (as far as I know) in either nickel oxide, or carbonate. (I think, I use oxide, and have it on hand)

I'm pretty sure that the owner of Shooters Solutions is not going to tell us how he is introducing the Nickel into his product, but I don't see what it could hurt to give it shot. Thing is, I'll have no waw to tell if it's working, if you see what I mean. How would I know if the coating has a nickel componet being transferred?

Any thoughts?P
Link Posted: 2/21/2008 5:18:17 PM EST
how do you keep your parts from having marks on them from when you hang them in the solution?
Link Posted: 2/22/2008 8:36:59 AM EST
Taggage.
Link Posted: 2/26/2008 2:32:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By pyroclayman:
Oh here is a thought. I have used Shooters Solutions products with great results. It's kinda spendy though, at least for me.

The Shooters Solutions guy brags that his product is superiour for several reasons, one of them being that his so lutions contain Nickel.

I'm no metalurgist or chemist, but it sounds reasonable, since we know nickel is harder than kelseys nuts, and corrosion resistant, right?

Well, most of us that are trying home brew parking are aquiring our manganese at a pottery supply store. I happen to be a potter by trade. (shooter and hobby gunbuilder/smith by obsession)

So I have the mang. But what I'd bet not to many guys (other than potters) is that nickle is also a common pottery chemical. (we use both the manganese and nickel in glaze formulation)

Nickel comes (as far as I know) in either nickel oxide, or carbonate. (I think, I use oxide, and have it on hand)

I'm pretty sure that the owner of Shooters Solutions is not going to tell us how he is introducing the Nickel into his product, but I don't see what it could hurt to give it shot. Thing is, I'll have no waw to tell if it's working, if you see what I mean. How would I know if the coating has a nickel componet being transferred?

Any thoughts?P



Well guys? Is it Nickel carbonate or nickel oxide???

Anyone know? And, how much to add?
Link Posted: 2/26/2008 3:54:02 PM EST
.
Link Posted: 2/26/2008 7:30:16 PM EST
It seems to me that anyone selling the chemicals MUST make claims that theirs are superior, because good/true phosphating is $15 for a hundred gallons. When I was looking into this, I saw mention of zinc, manganese, and iron phosphating but not nickel. I thought about experimenting with copper or aluminum in the solution.

I bought the ACE hardware phosphoric wash but immediately let a friend take it to use on a rusty iron stove. I think the solutions are equivalent, and I know people have used the ACE stuff at similar ratios.

To suspend parts, I used some slightly heavy gauge chromed wire clothes hangers from Wal Mart. Cut and bent them so they span across the tray and form a hanging "V."

Sorry for the late reply.
Link Posted: 2/27/2008 10:17:20 AM EST
i just let my parts rest on bottom but turn them every now and then park gets in nooks and crannys real good but do move front forearm keeper around also and if underfolder is installed move it to open or closed position and diff angles
Link Posted: 2/27/2008 6:37:29 PM EST
The nickel is added as a grain size modifier. The phosphate coating on the steel has a finer grain than without. Calcium salts are also used for this purpose. Nickel nitrate and nickel chloride are the typical salts used for nickel-modified phosphate. The phosphating solutions (i.e. parkerizing solutions) typically have a lot of nitrate added in the form of potassium or sodium nitrate. I'd be willing to bet that the Shooter Solutions guy buys professional chemicals by the barrel, and repackages it. You can buy this stuff from anyone who sells chemicals to plating shops.


Link Posted: 3/1/2008 9:40:33 AM EST
astronwolf - out-f'n-standing! I appreciate the insites; are you a chemist by trade. Thanks again.

CBR
Link Posted: 3/1/2008 12:56:33 PM EST
No CBR, I'm not a chemist. But I work with platers, and I have to understand what it is they are doing, chemically, in order to be a better sewer cop. Modern phosphate coatings have moved beyond simple phosphoric acid, manganese-or-zinc oxide, and steel wool mixtures. They add a lot of extra stuff to control the grain size of the phosphate coating, enhance the anti-corrosion properties of the phosphate coating, and keep the acid from eating away your parts.

Cooking up one's own formula appeals to us DIY guys, but it's way easier just to buy the stuff ready made. You get a superior product. $20-40 worth of product will do a bunch of AKs.

-W
Link Posted: 3/2/2008 5:04:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By astronwolf:
No CBR, I'm not a chemist. But I work with platers, and I have to understand what it is they are doing, chemically, in order to be a better sewer cop. Modern phosphate coatings have moved beyond simple phosphoric acid, manganese-or-zinc oxide, and steel wool mixtures. They add a lot of extra stuff to control the grain size of the phosphate coating, enhance the anti-corrosion properties of the phosphate coating, and keep the acid from eating away your parts.

Cooking up one's own formula appeals to us DIY guys, but it's way easier just to buy the stuff ready made. You get a superior product. $20-40 worth of product will do a bunch of AKs.

-W
you'll let us know when 20-40 dollar product becomes available ok
Link Posted: 3/2/2008 11:36:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By dmrodco:
you'll let us know when 20-40 dollar product becomes available ok




Well, without even really trying, I managed to find this one:

www.mg34.com/Parkerizing.html

Link Posted: 3/2/2008 4:30:54 PM EST
Is the park solution reusable or do you trash it after each use?
Link Posted: 3/2/2008 5:10:33 PM EST
Park is reusable...don't throw it away...it states so in the link provided above...
Link Posted: 3/3/2008 7:37:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By astronwolf:

Originally Posted By dmrodco:
you'll let us know when 20-40 dollar product becomes available ok




Well, without even really trying, I managed to find this one:

www.mg34.com/Parkerizing.html


when I run out of the 150 gallons I got for 35 bucks MAYBE I will try your link
Link Posted: 3/3/2008 9:06:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/3/2008 9:09:49 AM EST by CBR900]

Originally Posted By dmrodco:

Originally Posted By astronwolf:

Originally Posted By dmrodco:
you'll let us know when 20-40 dollar product becomes available ok




Well, without even really trying, I managed to find this one:

www.mg34.com/Parkerizing.html


when I run out of the 150 gallons I got for 35 bucks MAYBE I will try your link


Astronwolf - hey thanks again. I appreciate your advice BOTH as to the DIY route and to the use of a commercial product. I have been using the Palmetto balck park which is featured on BlindHogg's site (pith pictorial guide to use) for only $20 per quart and it would do many many guns for that price:

http://www.blindhogg.com/parkerizing.html

But he is going out of business. I also want to be able to mix my own - though you are right to caution about some DIY solutions eating too much of the steel away as I tried it on a piece of cut up barrel and the etching was - quite severe. The search for the perfect DIY solution goes on - thanks again for your valuable insights - I appreciate it.

dmrodco - nevermind. saw other post. to each his own.
Regards,

CBR
Link Posted: 3/12/2008 4:20:34 AM EST
this country was founded upon do it yourself men, don't be afraid to try, only thing to it, is put your hands on it ,just about everything can be undone ,maybe a little more work, but at least your learning something
Link Posted: 3/16/2008 11:06:28 AM EST
tried it this weekend and it worked awesome. really happy with results
Link Posted: 3/16/2008 5:43:04 PM EST
I parked two kits this weekend for the first time with the DYI setup this weekend. I'll post pics on another thread. Worked great!
Link Posted: 3/22/2008 7:48:55 PM EST
well I tried your idea with the klean strip and found it worked real good.the parts came out perfectly black and/or grey.I used the insides of a D size battery,just the black powder(manganese dioxide) some steel wool and the klean strip and water..the only twister is the receivers,mine I rolled turn out grey.but no biggy if ya put a finish on them or pre-dip before parking..

Link Posted: 4/1/2008 12:38:52 PM EST
FWIW, PetSmart has 16 quart stainless, deep pet bowls for $17. Five quart ones are about $6. Big enough for all but the barrel. I may try hammering a spout into one.
Link Posted: 4/1/2008 1:21:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/1/2008 1:23:56 PM EST by Dings]
try these,they are stainless steel fish poaching pans and only cost about 25 bucks new or you can find one on e bay or other places for 10 more or less,they have a full length removable "parts" tray.they are 18 inch and will fit a pulled barrel easily.they are 6 inches deepand like 6" wide.



Link Posted: 4/9/2008 6:15:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dings:
try these,they are stainless steel fish poaching pans and only cost about 25 bucks new or you can find one on e bay or other places for 10 more or less,they have a full length removable "parts" tray.they are 18 inch and will fit a pulled barrel easily.they are 6 inches deepand like 6" wide.

i153.photobucket.com/albums/s215/M-70AB2/fish.jpg



That should work.. Just make sure its flat-bottom stainless.
Link Posted: 4/9/2008 7:40:38 AM EST
tag
Link Posted: 4/10/2008 8:18:21 AM EST
I'm having trouble spending $20 - $30 on a pan to do my boiling. Would a $.99 foil roasting pan work? I doubt it would handle the heat, but I thought I would ask...
Link Posted: 4/10/2008 5:28:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By NapTown:
I'm having trouble spending $20 - $30 on a pan to do my boiling. Would a $.99 foil roasting pan work? I doubt it would handle the heat, but I thought I would ask...

It might not handle the heat, but it definitely won't handle the acid. Hot phosphoric acid will eat up a aluminum foil roaster pan very quickly, and spoil the chemistry of your bath. Don't use aluminum.

Been poking around the net, and I found numerous "free patents" online describing various phosphating solutions. You will not find the formulas for "the good stuff," like Parker Rustproof phosphating baths, but you can get some idea that modern phosphating solutions have gone way beyond phosphoric acid, zinc oxide, and steel wool. Some of you guys seem to want to get into this stuff, so here you go. Have at it.

Common ingredients:
Water
Phosphoric acid
Zinc oxide
Nickel oxide
Manganese dioxide
Nitrates, nitrites, chlorates, fluorides, formates - accelerators and oxidizers

Not all of these end up in all zinc phosphating baths. Professional phosphaters pay close attention to the Total Acid - Free Acid Ratio of their baths.

Conversion Coatings

Example of a patent

Happy experimenting!

Link Posted: 4/15/2008 9:48:45 AM EST
THANKS! Valuable info there.
Link Posted: 4/15/2008 10:30:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By astronwolf:
but you can get some idea that modern phosphating solutions have gone way beyond phosphoric acid, zinc oxide, and steel wool. Some of you guys seem to want to get into this stuff, so here you go.

I certainly agree, but as a base for Teflon/Moly spray coat, do you see any drawbacks...? TIA!
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 6:55:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/17/2008 6:59:29 AM EST by turbosc20]
I played with some Muriatic acid today...



Sanding the old finish off a stripper clip


~15 mins later


Got the manganese dioxide out of an D alkaline battery. About 3 regular size spoon full, 2 cups of water and added a small piece of steel wool.

My setup:
Stainless steel pan and a bbq grill.

Link Posted: 4/20/2008 7:16:29 AM EST
I did my third batch with this, but this time after an hour of initial 185 degree phosp, water, manganese dioxide, and steel wool in one pot, I let the solution settle and poured off the liquid into my phosphating pan. I then reheated and put things in for 30 minutes. I seemed to worry less about turning things because there was not a lot of solids, but some stuff did precipitate out of the water. I then put a cold-blue onto the finished gray pieces until they were the dark shade I wanted. Worked well with the multiple additions (about 5) of cold blue getting just what I wanted.
Link Posted: 4/22/2008 11:42:54 AM EST
I did re- use my very last batch of commercial park; after sitting in the basement for over a year, that previously-used batch had the same problem: a lot of solids had precipitated out of solution. Looked like light brown flakes of who knows what.

BUT - the solution worked just fine; a frined came over with an old Springfield & the parts parked great.
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 5:31:32 AM EST
Hey guys, got a question for you park people.

I assembled some kits this winter and everyone said use moly resin as the finish. .. nothing bout parking under it first. Well of course all of the original parts such as the barrels and the side fold stocks were parked already, and the finish is holding well on those. The issue is on the reciever the finish is chipping and wearing by the selector. I want to refinish the recievers to fix this issue.

My question is, can i remove the moly resin, and put the whole gun in the park tank ( minus the internals and wood of course) ? Im just wanting to make sure that the parts that are already parked like the stocks and barrels will not be harmed by being placed in the park solution. I really dont want to have to pull the trunnions and barrels so that i can park just the recievers. What are your guys thoughs?

Pat
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 2:37:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/23/2008 9:50:29 PM EST by Cdog]
I opened up a Energizer Akaline battery and the paste inside is a gray/silver/green color. Or is it the black chalk stuff that wraps around the core? Is this the Manganese Dioxide I need?
Link Posted: 4/23/2008 4:00:03 PM EST
Is everyone sandblasting their parts before parking? Or is degreasing and hand sanding good enough? Whats the least amount of prep work anyone has gotten away with? Damn, I dont have a sandblaster or compressor.
Link Posted: 4/24/2008 4:08:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By kingfish:
Is everyone sandblasting their parts before parking? Or is degreasing and hand sanding good enough? Whats the least amount of prep work anyone has gotten away with? Damn, I dont have a sandblaster or compressor.


It is a good idea. Glass bead blasting actually "activates" or exposes the surface of the steel to the park solution.

Blasting with oxide, or even Home Depot playground sand and a $20 Harbor Freight blasting gun ( assuming you have a compressor) will work. Wear a respirator, but you can even blast parts in your driveway and then hose the sand into the gutter afterwards.

Degrease the metal as best you can. Then, do it AGAIN. Then park.
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