I am thinking about purchasing a .308 caliber rifle for distance shooting, but in the interest of consolidating calibers, I am re-thinking that and considering getting a rifle in 5.56.  I am looking at target and hunting possibilities.  Any thoughts besides get them both?

Depends on the range you plan to shoot and the platform, i.e. AR or bolt action.
















 

Ive shot my target 223,s for several yrs. Ive develope,d loads for all 4 of my targets 223 and love all of them. But when I got the bug to go bigger in the target rifle, I chose 308. Im glad I did. lots of diff. projectiles to choose from, and not "that" expensive.
thruth be known, If I had more of my shooting buds own some good 223 target rifles like i do, I think we,d be shooting the 223 more, but seeing as how they all  have 308...well...I just jump,d on there band wagon and have been spending money ever since. its fun, addictive,but a little more pricey to reload for the 308 as opposed to 223.

so...I think youll be happy if you had them both.

ar-15 platform for the 223 imo is the way to go....
but for the 308?..its up to you to decide wether its a bolt or semi

imo...i love semi

your distance is needed...

the king of 1000y bench rest is 6mm and 6.5mm guns,, like a 260, 6.5 creedmore 6.5 will stay super sonic to 1400+

most 223 is only SS to 800y or less, same for 168 308.. u need 175gr+ to push 1k in 308 well...

338 even if you load it is 4 to 8$ per shot.. store bought can be 20+ per shot.. look on midway..  and unless you are shooting 1700+ and elk, no point...

Good advice here.
I just shot the Mammoth sniper challenge then judged the Super squad that included several top 10 teams. I learned alot about long range shooting. The 6.5 rounds kicked butt, the flatter trajectory made it easier to hit targets at 700-850 yards. I would look at the 6.5 Creedmore round from Hornady. I have not seen a big name ammo company produce 260 yet.

I just bought a 338 and plan to load from day one. I'm curious how you got to $4 to $8 per round. Lapua is about $2.60 for the brass, but you should be able to get about 10 to 12 loads from that. Lapua Scenars are going to run about 0.70 per pill, SMKs are cheaper. A primer is a primer, about 3 cents. I figure I'll be able to get about 75 rounds out of a pound of powder. so I'm coming up with about $1.36 per loaded round. (If I work for free)

Just curious because if it's that expensive I'm going to be in big trouble with the Mrs.

add in the meds you will need to take after shooting 100 rounds at a match :)

7mm is also a good bullet to go with when shooting far.  Lots of projectiles to choose from and I have been told that the 7mm usually has a better bc than 7.62mm bullets of similar shape and mass.

If you are attempting to learn long distance shooting, go with .308.    You will have plenty of brass & ammo sources, the barrel will last a long time, and although completely competent out to 1000 Yards, it is still going to give you the "wind education"   that you need as a newer shooter.  

After you cut your teeth on it, and figure out if it's for you or not, you can easily rebarrel the gun to any other short action caliber if you intend to compete and such.  

Or get into a second gun as interest, time, and finances permit.   The more you are around people shooting this sport, the more equipment you will see and the more you will learn.  

Most people's second precision rifle is nothing like their first one.  

––Fargo007

I could have done without the continued wind education and frustration .308 put me through.  I already had enough trigger time with it through M24's, and our transition ranges had a double-wide E-type twins at 900m, just so we could get hits in realistic conditions.

After having shot .308 precision rifles for the past 17 years, I consider it a 600m cartridge in dicey wind conditions, if we're talking 1st-round hits.  I've made a few good 1st-round hits at distances from 1000-1100yds, but they were in perfect conditions.

I'm a big fan of the .260 Rem, which is my go-to long-range gun now, in an auto-loader no less.  I had the guys at GA Precision build it up for me, and it's a laser beam.  I honestly wish I had never purchased 2 of the 3 .308's that I had before that.  The one exception was the one I had GAP build for me before the .260 Rem, as it's a shooter as well.

.338 is a bit much to jump into, cost-wise.  I've shot it 3 days a week, from 0900-1700, and I love the cartridge, especially when shooting it on someone else's dime.  When you load for it, you can see your powder measure drop with each charge thrown, so it will hit your pocket hard every time you pull the trigger.  I've seen guys shoot 1/3 MOA groups with it from 1400m, in the blowing wind and rain...no BS, and that was with the Finnish Army Lapua lock base bullets, not even Scenars.

I put a .338 300gr SMK through a 2" hole on one of the steel contraption targets at Boomer Shoot last year, up in the mountains of Northern Idaho, which was fun.

I have no problems recommending people jump into the .260 Rem right off the bat.  You still will need to compensate for wind at distance, just much less than with a .308, and your hit probability goes way up in comparison to the .308.

I chose .260 Rem over 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5x47 Lapua because of brass availability.  The other two have only one source of brass, whereas .260 Rem has Lapua, Norma, Nosler, Remington, and I even saw Sako brass in Finland this winter.  It's also very easy to size .260 Rem brass from 7mm-08 Winchester brass, which is how I started out before Lapua came on-board.  

For those that don't know, the 6.5 Creedmoor is Hornady's 30 TC necked down to .264".  The 30 TC was Hornady's answer to .308 Winchester, only with a 1.920" case length and a 30 degree shoulder, while the .308 Winchester has a 2.015" case length, and 20 degree shoulder.  The decreased case volume and shoulder angle are supposed to work together to generate more efficiency, according to Hornady.  Performance between .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor, and 6.5x47 Lapua are on-par with each other, although the Lapua can handle some pretty insane pressures since it has a shorter powder column and a small rifle primer.

I've had good brass life with my .260 Rem using the Winchester 7mm-08 brass, especially for an auto-loader that I push pretty hard.

Great post LRRP.

I will chuck this in here in the hopes that someone new to the arena of “Long Range Shooting” will get something out of it:

When the question comes up, “which round for long range?”, then there also has to be another series of questions asked which can include:

What distance are you calling “long range”?
You are best off when the round makes it to the target at above supersonic speed. Many bullets will have stability issues and resulting loss of accuracy when they transition out of supersonic flight. Some bullets will maintain their stability as they transition, but that can be a risky proposition to rely on unless you really know the ballistic performance of a given bullet. If you run through the ballistic numbers for any given round it is easy to figure out at what distance that round will drop below supersonic speeds.
Examples: .223 = 600 yds / .308 = 1,000 yds / .260 = 1,300 yds / .338 LM = 1,800 yds
(*note – exact distance will vary, and depends on the specific load)

What are you shooting at, 2 legs, 4 legs, or paper?
A hunter may have the option to purchase any ammo off the shelf or may even be able to handload their ammo, but they must insure that the round they choose is effective on the game they are hunting. A competitive shooter will ultimately be limited by the accuracy potential of the round they choose. The bullet must be optimal for the application, and the round pushing the bullet must be able to get optimal performance out of it.
Examples: a 100 yard Benchrest Shooter can have great success with a 6mm round, but a Hunter would not be able to effectively use that round on Medium-Large game.

What is your shooting application, LE or Military, hunting, competitive shooting?
Your application can be the critical deciding factor, or it may leave you with many options.  A Military or LE Sniper will be limited by the ammo that they have access to, so they must plan accordingly. A hunter may have local laws regulating which caliber they can use for a given animal. A competitive shooter may have significant limited factors such as the weight of the rifle, caliber restrictions, or allowable options on the rifle.
Examples: Most LE Sniper must shoot factory ammo due to liability issues, so they must pick a caliber that has top quality factory loaded match ammo available.  

Do you need a factory rifle, or is a custom build an option?
Some calibers like a .308 have many factory rifle options, some have almost none like some of the 6.5 calibers, and some are only available as a custom build like the .300 Hulk. You also have to check because some calibers will have factory rifles available, but they are not really built for precision long range shooting.
Examples: .223 and .308, have factory options well into the double digits, a .260 has factory options only in the single digits.

Do you need factory ammo, or can you reload your own?
Just like the rifles above, some calibers have factory loads available in the double digits, some have factory loads in the single digits, and some are only available as a handload. If you are looking at going the route of handloading, then you also need to look at the availability and cost of the reloading components.

What do your finances look like for the rifle & ammo?
Rifles can run from as little as $500 to as much as $5,000. Ammo can run from pennies per round to $5 per round. The only way you can get better shooting is to practice, and the only way you can practice is if you can afford the ammo to shoot!

Is barrel life a deciding factor?
Some “overbore” calibers can burn out the throat in a barrel and start to seriously impact accuracy in as few as 800-1,000 rounds. Some calibers can run round counts above 3,000 rounds before barrel wear and accuracy become an issue.

Is recoil a deciding factor?
Some of the magnum calibers are best of with some type of recoil management such as a brake or suppressor. This is important to consider because in many applications such as hunting or competitive shooting, a brake or suppressor will not be allowed.


Unfortunately as they say, “there is no free lunch”, and if you really want to figure out which particular rifle and ammo combo is best for you, then you really need to ask the questions and do your homework to make sure you get the right answers for what will work best for your given situation.

Not sure if anyone will make it through all of that, but if they do, hopefully it will help!

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

Take a look at the .260 Remington.

I'm interested LRRPF52:  what type auto loader are you shooting .260 through?

Not sure why 7mm is so overlooked by new long range shooters.  I figured because it is an older cartridge and the assumption is that newer is better.  Both the 7mm Rem Mag and 7mm-08 for both long range target or long range hunting are proven successful cartridges.  Best of all, components are easy to comeby and fairly priced.

I was playing with both .308 and .270 Win at distance today. We had a vigorous crosswind. At a measured 425 yard, the .308 with 147 gr FMJ's was hard to hit with due to drift. The .270, with 130 gr Accubonds was not as wind sensitive. 200 yard shots were effortless, the 425 yard shots a no brainer. I was able to connect on humanoid size/shape steel plate at a measured 975 yards. I'm begining to think my .308 is going to gather a bit of dust in the near future...

Really?? I don't think you've got a very fair comparison here. You've got a bullet on the heavier end of .270's which is better made vs. the bottom of the barrel .308... Run a 168 or 175gr nosler or sierra out of the .308 then tell me it won't keep up. Not saying the .270 won't get the job done just as well, just trying to compare apples to apples.

Would also be curious what .308 147 FMJ ammo that you were shooting? Unless it was a handload that you built for the rifle, the off the shelf / surplus stuff is usually 1-2 MOA at best, and I have seen some stuff that was 2-3 MOA at best. Not to mention the BC on a 147 FMJ is poor compared to other options. Per above, if distance and wind are the concern, then with a .308 you need a good match load with a 175-180 grain bullet (AMAX, SMK, VLD).

Don't get me wrong, comparing something like a .270 with a 135 SMK and a .308 with a 175 SMK, the .270 will have about a 1 MOA advantage in wind drift.

No question that the 6.5mm, 6.8mm, and 7mm bullets and loads can easily out perform a .308.

Bryan Litz does a good job explaining why a .30 cal is not really optimal until you get into the real heavy bullets (220-240 grain), which of course you need a big magnum to drive.
http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/30cal_fullVersion.pdf

I wouldn’t put a .308 in the “worthless / useless category”, but it is easily outperformed by a number of other rounds.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

In terms of the 7mms,

You can also add the .284 on the low end, it has been used by a number of shooters to set world records.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html

On the top end you can add the 7mm WSM, a lot of F-Class and Tactical Shooters are running them.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek071/

You just have to watch with the 7mms because they need to be pushed hard to take full advantage of the BCs, and that can come with recoil and barrel life issues.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

I use remington 700 .300 winchester magnum bolt rilfe for 600-1500 yards. I have not had a chance to shoot 1500, but im sure it will do well with the right scope and D.O.P.E.

Both were my own hand loads, the .308 load uses a winchester 147 gr fmj with 48.0 gr of win 748. Gives me about 2800 fps.The .270 load is the nosler 130 gr AB over 55.0 gr of IMR 4350 for about 3100 fps. I have a screamer .308 load that uses the nosler 180 gr AB or BT for 2700 fps. It does fairly well out to about 700 yards...

.243 Winchester.

115 DTACS @ 3100 FPS are very hard to beat. They will shoot inside just about any round out there up to 1000 yards.

Brass is cheap, components are readily available. Recoil is non existent.

you will also need a 1-8 twist gun to use them...

1-7.5 even better.

Although 105 Berger Hybrids shoot fantastic out of a 1-8.

I only need 7.4 mils to get to 1100 yards with 115 DTACS being pushed to 3050.

Assuming that rifle weight is not an issue and you have solid hand loader experience,  here are my preferred rounds to choose from:

300 jazz
300 Norma mag
300 win mag
300 RUM
300 weatherby mag
338 Norma
338 lapua

And if money is no object 408 cheytac


What ever round you pick should be based on distance and momentum desires.
speed and ballistic coefficient will determine drop and windage adjustment required
accuracy is determined by barrel pressure vs harmonic stiffness and bullet spacing to lands.

If you compare the 308 to the 6.5mm's (260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x47 Lapua), the 308 usually has more energy until around 400 yards, then from there to the transonic distance, the 6.5's ballistic superiority begins to show up.  Most 308's using 175-178 grain bullets hit the transonic barrier at around 900-1200 yards.  The 6.5's give you several hundred yards more distance before reaching the transonic barrier.

Sure, things like the 300 Win mag, 330 Lapua and others are better, but they recoil much more, and go through barrels much faster.  It all depends on what you want to do with the rifle.

For long range shooting I would go with the 6mm dasher.Buddy of mine just won the texas state championship with it.He's also a regular MS championship competitor.This is if you are setup to reload.

AR10-type frame.  The .260 Rem isn't even fun to shoot within 500yds, unless the targets are very small:

.260 Rem

You should deffinatley look into the .264 6.5 Grendel. Check the Alexander Arms web site.

My son`s .260 Rem is stupid accurate out to 1200. I load for him and it`s pretty easy to do considering the accuracy demands his competitions place on him.

Okay, I have both calibers.  My opinion is for the 223, if you want to shoot for distance, then you need to shoot the heavier bullets,  in the 65-80 grain range, and to do that you need a fast twist. 1:7 or 1:8 minimum Most bolt guns come with 1:12 to 1:14 twist for the light weight varmint bullets, I think the Remington 700 tactical comes with a faster twist, but i forget what that is and am too lazy to go look it up.
Most 308's have 1:12 twist barrels, so the 168 gr bullet is max for them. If you can fond one with a 1:10 twist barrel, grab it. I have a built up Mauser with a 1:10 twist barrel that will shoot 1/2" groups with the sierra 190 Matchking and 3/8" groups with the 168's, but if I drop down to 150 grainers, the groups open up to 2" or worse.
Hope that helps

The .338 Lapua is relatively easy on barrel life, not so much on the wallet.

This point is worth considering.   I can shoot my 308 all day with no discomfort to my shoulder or wallet.

This is a great post!

6.5 Grendel is probably the most economical cartridge for shooting distance if you want to hear a hit at 1000yds.  Shooting within 1000yds on 18" plates is boring like it is with the .260 Rem.

Chambering

I just got back from Steel Safari working RO for the West canyon range.

There were maybe 3 people shooting .308 that I noticed.  Out of 72 shooters, they were all at the very bottom.

Everyone that was trying to place was shooting:

6.5 Creedmoor
6.5x47 Lapua
.260 Remington
6.5x55 Mauser
6mm Creedmoor
6x47 Lapua
6 XC
6mm Dasher


There was even a guy shooting .260 Rem in a JP gas gun who placed 15th.  He was shooting the 107gr SMK on top of that, running it over 3000fps and slaying steel like a boss.  I handled every competitor's score card.  The guys shooting .308 had scores where on a stage with 6 targets, they were getting 0, 0, 1, 0, 3, 0, 0, 0 just as an example.

Guys who can shoot and are very competitive shooting the 6mm and 6.5mm were getting 6, 6, 6, 5, 6, 5, 6, 6 for one Range of 8 stages.

The course is broken down into 3 canyon ranges, North, West, and South, with 8 stages per that you do each day, covering 3 days.  Some people just insist on shooting a .308 Win.  The wind wasn't even bad this year either. Most targets were within 500yds, with a few past 600.  Each stage usually had one at around 250, 350-375, and 400-500, all UKD down in the canyons.

If you ever plan on shooting PRS or a field match and want to actually be competitive, get one of the winning chamberings, not the losing ones.

That is some good information, I will make a possible explanation.  Newer shooters to the game tend to have 308's and not the preferred calibers you list.  I happen to be in that boat.  I have a good shooting 308 that I bought in 2005 and am just getting into this competitive long range game.  I will probably shoot my 308 until I expend most of the the reloading components I have for the rifle, then switch calibers.

So, even though the 308 has some bearing on the misses, it may be more that the people shooting 308's are much more inexperienced than the shooters using the better calibers.  Kind of a double whammy that shows up as a major disparity in the scores.  

In other words, give the top shooter a 308 and the worst shooter a 6X47L and see how much closer their scores get, or not.  

Top guys with 308's still don't usually place. While of course they would beat a total rookie that's probably about it.

There is a reason it isn't used hardly at all outside of matches that have a dedicated class or division for it.

130gr in a .270 is light.   Lighter bullets are designed for 6.8 not the "270" caliber rifles.  I would not overlook the 270WSM if I wanted to get into the long range game, Berger has the VLD in .277 that touts a BC of .487.