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Posted: 2/21/2016 12:01:22 PM EDT
A little background infoShooting handgun is really my passion, therefore I train constantly. I am a very accurate pistol shooter and am also great from a draw while maintaining accuracy. I even shoot 12x14" targets at 100 plus yards with my G19 consistently, so I feel I have my fundamentals down when it comes to handgun shooting.
But I am having an issue incorporating speed into the mix. I am so used to shooting 1-2 rounds at a time that anymore than that I have almost a mental block, somewhat of a hesitation mentally. I know when it comes to shooting you are constantly learning, you never should become overly confident and be open minded constantly. Which is why I'm here asking for your help 
I'm not looking to go 0-60 in a matter of weeks ( I know this will take time), but for me it's somewhat frustrating because of that mental block I'm experiencing. To those who are skilled and fast, I would love to hear your thoughts, especially how you prep the trigger during recoil and what exercises you used to get faster. Any advice is greatly appreciated. |
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Posted: 2/21/2016 1:21:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Go shoot some Bill and Blake drills at close range.
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Posted: 2/22/2016 12:50:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Dot drill, trigger stripe drill, bill drill, el prez, all about a mix of accuracy and speed. Use a par timer to force yourself to go faster.
The best way to shoot fast is to see fast, so start blazing. The accuracy will pick back up once you're used to seeing the front sight faster. If you're accuracy is dropping at speed, you also might want to tighten up your grip. |
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Posted: 2/22/2016 1:20:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Use a par timer to force yourself to go faster. This is a great point. I just assumed OP trained with a shot timer, which may or may not be correct. You will NEVER get faster unless you train with a timer. |
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Posted: 2/22/2016 5:22:48 PM EDT
[#4]
Thanks guys for the insight! I have a shot timer, but it's a shitty app on my phone. What "budget" timers would you recommend ?
I'm an engineering student so my budget is somewhat limited regarding Ammo as well, so with that being said, rounds per cadence should I be shooting to start off with? |
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Posted: 2/22/2016 5:37:48 PM EDT
[#5]
1) don't sacrifice accuracy for speed. Speed is not an action, it is a byproduct of efficiency and economy of motion. Get more efficient and with less motion and you will get faster.
2) dry fire, dry fire, and more dry fire. About 2/3 of your training regime should be dry fire. If you need something with a resettable trigger, then spend some money to get the training aid you need (Glock red gun, SIRT, etc...) 3) get with a competent instructor with a background in speed shooting. If you can swing it, a class with Max Michel is worth the few hundred bucks (http://maxmichel.com/training/). Getting an accurate diagnosis or training plan from a Arfcom post is near impossible. You need a competent and experienced instructor in that aspect of shooting to evaluate you; not your local CCW instructor or random forum posters. 4) do more dry fire. |
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Posted: 2/22/2016 5:42:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks guys for the insight! I have a shot timer, but it's a shitty app on my phone. What "budget" timers would you recommend ? I'm an engineering student so my budget is somewhat limited regarding Ammo as well, so with that being said, rounds per cadence should I be shooting to start off with? Pocket Pro 1 or 2 is a good timer. Expect to pay around $100. The phone app timer is fine for dry fire if it has a par time function, but I wouldn't use a phone for live drills. Dispense with the idea of rounds per cadence and think more in terms of driving total times down in the Bill and Blake drill. I recommend you begin a dry fire regimen. No ammo (money) required. Ben Stoeger's dry fire book is a good start. |
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Posted: 2/22/2016 6:38:53 PM EDT
[#7]
I do try and dry fire almost every night. What drills do you recommend For dry firing? I have a choice though, since I'm limited on funds, should I get a Shot Timer and ammo or a SIRT pistol?
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Posted: 2/22/2016 7:40:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I do try and dry fire almost every night. What drills do you recommend For dry firing? I have a choice though, since I'm limited on funds, should I get a Shot Timer and ammo or a SIRT pistol? Since you have a basic shot timer app on your phone, and ammo will only get you limited training sessions I would go with the SIRT pistol for now. The timers mentioned above are all good and necessary to work on building speed. Work on getting one of those next. |
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Posted: 2/22/2016 8:13:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do try and dry fire almost every night. What drills do you recommend For dry firing? I have a choice though, since I'm limited on funds, should I get a Shot Timer and ammo or a SIRT pistol? SIRT pistol is a waste of money, IMO. Dry fire with your actual pistol is far more valuable and far cheaper. Get the Stoeger book I linked for drills. |
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Posted: 2/22/2016 9:52:25 PM EDT
[#10]
I did order that book, looks like an excellent tool. What shot timers would you suggest that don't break the bank?
EDIT: I just figured out how to read and you recommended one, thank you! Quote HistoryQuoted:
SIRT pistol is a waste of money, IMO. Dry fire with your actual pistol is far more valuable and far cheaper. Get the Stoeger book I linked for drills. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I do try and dry fire almost every night. What drills do you recommend For dry firing? I have a choice though, since I'm limited on funds, should I get a Shot Timer and ammo or a SIRT pistol? SIRT pistol is a waste of money, IMO. Dry fire with your actual pistol is far more valuable and far cheaper. Get the Stoeger book I linked for drills. |
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Posted: 2/22/2016 10:11:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Slow is fast, but if you never miss you aren't going fast enough. Or something like that.
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Posted: 2/22/2016 11:53:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Slow is fast, but if you never miss you aren't going fast enough. Or something like that. |
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Posted: 2/23/2016 2:57:04 PM EDT
[#13]
Just ordered the CE Pocket Pro 2, does anyone have experience with that timer?
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Posted: 2/23/2016 5:43:56 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just ordered the CE Pocket Pro 2, does anyone have experience with that timer? |
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Posted: 2/23/2016 6:44:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Ok good to hear, I got it for $89 shipped so I figured I couldn't go wrong.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It'll work just fine for you. They're a little bigger than some of the new timers, but they work. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just ordered the CE Pocket Pro 2, does anyone have experience with that timer? |
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Posted: 2/23/2016 9:41:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok good to hear, I got it for $89 shipped so I figured I couldn't go wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok good to hear, I got it for $89 shipped so I figured I couldn't go wrong. Quoted: Quoted: Just ordered the CE Pocket Pro 2, does anyone have experience with that timer? great deal. |
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Posted: 2/24/2016 12:18:01 PM EDT
[#17]
I think one of the keys to shooting quicker is sights. Practice always having a last sight picture. 2 shots = 3 sight pictures. 5=6 etc. The focus on reaquiring the sights is a critical step for me. Then for fun at the range load up some mags with various amounts of ammo 3-8 rounds or so. Dump them in a bag/pouch so you have less of an idea what's what. Shoot each as fast as you can "see" the sights until slide lock. This may help break the mental block you.describe, I.e. "2 shot n stop" phenomenon. I'd Start fairly close, no more than 5 yards or so.
Another fun one is a paper plate at 7yds, 1 fully loaded mag, fast as you can without a miss, Then if you really want to push speed, fast as possible with 1 or 2 misses. Pushing till you have a failure/miss helps to identify the threshold your looking for. This can make for an expensive day at the range, so I often use less than a mag. instead I revert to mags with 3-8 rounds and try to jumble them up so I'm not sure which is which. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 4:02:35 AM EDT
[#18]
I'm trying to get faster too. I shoot a lot of idpa and a little Uspsa. I watched a podcast by Ben stoeger that I think basically said you have to miss in practice to know how fast you can really go or something like that. Apparently he recommends bill drill and so does the Brian enos book I have. I think they can do it in less that 2 sec. At 7yds. I'm at like 2.55. I also recently signed up for Ben stoegers 2 day class in June so hopefully I'll know more after that!
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Posted: 2/25/2016 10:52:03 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think one of the keys to shooting quicker is sights. Practice always having a last sight picture. 2 shots = 3 sight pictures. 5=6 etc. The focus on reaquiring the sights is a critical step for me. Then for fun at the range load up some mags with various amounts of ammo 3-8 rounds or so. Dump them in a bag/pouch so you have less of an idea what's what. Shoot each as fast as you can "see" the sights until slide lock. This may help break the mental block you.describe, I.e. "2 shot n stop" phenomenon. I'd Start fairly close, no more than 5 yards or so. Another fun one is a paper plate at 7yds, 1 fully loaded mag, fast as you can without a miss, Then if you really want to push speed, fast as possible with 1 or 2 misses. Pushing till you have a failure/miss helps to identify the threshold your looking for. This can make for an expensive day at the range, so I often use less than a mag. instead I revert to mags with 3-8 rounds and try to jumble them up so I'm not sure which is which. |
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Posted: 2/25/2016 11:36:01 AM EDT
[#20]
100% agree with the comment on last sight picture slowing down transitions. I just meant that in practice getting off a sting of shots quickly I have found the above helpful in overcoming my own "2-3 shot and stop" mental block as well as speed up my rate of fire. In a comp there are definitely differences between the first and last rounds fired.
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Posted: 2/25/2016 2:02:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Last sight picture is part of follow through. Eyes shouldn't move to next target until after you have completed your fundamentals from previous shot.
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Posted: 2/26/2016 12:48:39 AM EDT
[#22]
These replies are exactly what I was looking for. I'm definitely going to do some of those drills. It seems you're almost training your brain and your eyes to work together in sequence.
When I watch people who can shoot extremely fast, it's almost hard to believe that they are actually able to watch their sights. I'm assuming with extensive training, your brain adapts. |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 1:00:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1) don't sacrifice accuracy for speed. Speed is not an action, it is a byproduct of efficiency and economy of motion. Get more efficient and with less motion and you will get faster. If you want to get fast, and accurate, do not listen to advice like posted above. In practice, if you're pushing speed, you're going to get sloppy. And that's okay... because you're trying to improve your speed. You have to learn what it feels like to go fast before you can go fast and control it. 
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Posted: 2/26/2016 1:05:52 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm trying to get faster too. I shoot a lot of idpa and a little Uspsa. I watched a podcast by Ben stoeger that I think basically said you have to miss in practice to know how fast you can really go or something like that. Apparently he recommends bill drill and so does the Brian enos book I have. I think they can do it in less that 2 sec. At 7yds. I'm at like 2.55. I also recently signed up for Ben stoegers 2 day class in June so hopefully I'll know more after that! |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 10:46:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you want to get fast, and accurate, do not listen to advice like posted above. In practice, if you're pushing speed, you're going to get sloppy. And that's okay... because you're trying to improve your speed. You have to learn what it feels like to go fast before you can go fast and control it.  https://youtu.be/oZpOv4bI5KkQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
1) don't sacrifice accuracy for speed. Speed is not an action, it is a byproduct of efficiency and economy of motion. Get more efficient and with less motion and you will get faster. If you want to get fast, and accurate, do not listen to advice like posted above. In practice, if you're pushing speed, you're going to get sloppy. And that's okay... because you're trying to improve your speed. You have to learn what it feels like to go fast before you can go fast and control it. https://youtu.be/oZpOv4bI5KkWell, I'm glad you posted an hour long video to support your opinion, however it didn't do much in supporting your claim. Allow me to respond in kind: How about Max Michel's take on this... http://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2011/2/16/shooting-tips-from-max-michel/ Or Ron Avery's... http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/3164641-Gunfight-training-Hype-myth-and-BS-part-one/ http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/3164645-Gunfight-training-Hype-myth-and-BS-part-two/ How about Mike Pannone... http://soldiersystems.net/2015/03/21/gunfighter-moment-mike-pannone-26/ http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/13/gunfighter-moment-mike-pannone-22/ Or perhaps a video from Rob Leatham (while older, still on point and accurate)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JslC-cGybBM I can find many more examples if that is not enough for you... Each one of them, GMs in USPA, advocate following the sights and getting the hits over speed. While this is not to say that you can't have misses while training, however you should not be training to miss (as others here, who are not GMs, have suggested). OP: vett the advice you are getting and from whom before applying it. AJE: Vett the advice before you give it. As an "instructor" you know better. |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 10:46:17 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you want to get fast, and accurate, do not listen to advice like posted above. In practice, if you're pushing speed, you're going to get sloppy. And that's okay... because you're trying to improve your speed. You have to learn what it feels like to go fast before you can go fast and control it. https://youtu.be/oZpOv4bI5KkQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
1) don't sacrifice accuracy for speed. Speed is not an action, it is a byproduct of efficiency and economy of motion. Get more efficient and with less motion and you will get faster. If you want to get fast, and accurate, do not listen to advice like posted above. In practice, if you're pushing speed, you're going to get sloppy. And that's okay... because you're trying to improve your speed. You have to learn what it feels like to go fast before you can go fast and control it. https://youtu.be/oZpOv4bI5KkWell, I'm glad you posted an hour long video to support your opinion, however it didn't do much in supporting your claim. Allow me to respond in kind: How about Max Michel's take on this... http://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2011/2/16/shooting-tips-from-max-michel/ Or Ron Avery's... http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/3164641-Gunfight-training-Hype-myth-and-BS-part-one/ http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/3164645-Gunfight-training-Hype-myth-and-BS-part-two/ How about Mike Pannone... http://soldiersystems.net/2015/03/21/gunfighter-moment-mike-pannone-26/ http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/13/gunfighter-moment-mike-pannone-22/ Or perhaps a video from Rob Leatham (while older, still on point and accurate)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JslC-cGybBM I can find more if you need... Each one of them, GMs in USPSA, advocate following the sights and getting the hits over speed. While this is not to say that you can't have misses while training, however you should not be training to miss (as others here, who are not GMs, have suggested). OP: vett the advice you are getting and from whom before applying it. AJE: Vett the advice before you give it. As an "instructor" you know better. |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 3:06:37 PM EDT
[#27]
I could post a bunch of links in support of what I said too, and I consider the advice vetted just fine. I've learned a lot from Ben's books and videos and hold my own in USPSA matches (local and major) just fine.
I'm a certified LE instructor, so most of the instruction I'm involved in are people that a) are only there because they are being paid, and b) are people that I know aren't going to practice. I wouldn't be telling a person like that anything I'm saying in this thread. The OP obviously wants to get better and seems perfectly willing to put in the work to do so. If you never miss in training, you aren't pushing yourself enough. That's not saying he should train himself to miss. |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 10:40:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, I'm glad you posted an hour long video to support your opinion, however it didn't do much in supporting your claim. Allow me to respond in kind: SNIP Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1) don't sacrifice accuracy for speed. Speed is not an action, it is a byproduct of efficiency and economy of motion. Get more efficient and with less motion and you will get faster. If you want to get fast, and accurate, do not listen to advice like posted above. In practice, if you're pushing speed, you're going to get sloppy. And that's okay... because you're trying to improve your speed. You have to learn what it feels like to go fast before you can go fast and control it. https://youtu.be/oZpOv4bI5KkWell, I'm glad you posted an hour long video to support your opinion, however it didn't do much in supporting your claim. Allow me to respond in kind: SNIP Each one of them, GMs in USPSA, advocate following the sights and getting the hits over speed. While this is not to say that you can't have misses while training, however you should not be training to miss (as others here, who are not GMs, have suggested). coloccw, I read all the links you posted and I don't find anything contradictory between those articles and what AJE has posted. In practice, when pushing your limits and the boundaries of your current skills, you're bound to miss. If you never push yourself to failure, then you never grow. That is different than "training to miss". I think this is why some guys conceptualize their training sessions as being in different "modes". i.e. match mode, speed mode, accuracy mode, etc. There is a time and a place for each mode of training. |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 11:16:37 PM EDT
[#29]
I agree that misses/points dropped will happen. That does not make it acceptable. What seems to have been stated was that misses are acceptable in order to gain speed. That is entirely false. While they happen, in training, practice, competition, or the street, they should never be considered acceptable. That is a mindset issue that leads to bigger problems. If a certain drill can be shot in X time with Y amount of misses/points dropped then the immediate response should be to try to shoot the drill again in the same time (or less) with less misses/points dropped; not just a faster time. Speed can be obtained in many ways when shooting. Sacrificing accuracy is not one of those ways.
Remember, the OP specifically stated in the title "without losing accuracy." I know a lot of people jump in without reading the entire thread or forget the original post due to the course of the thread, however we have to remember the original question and answer accordingly. Maintaining accuracy means following the sight through the shot and completing basic fundamentals, not ignoring them mid shot I order to pick up perceived speed that can and should be accomplished elsewhere. |
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Posted: 2/26/2016 11:44:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree that misses/points dropped will happen. That does not make it acceptable. What seems to have been stated was that misses are acceptable in order to gain speed. That is entirely false. While they happen, in training, practice, competition, or the street, they should never be considered acceptable. That is a mindset issue that leads to bigger problems. If a certain drill can be shot in X time with Y amount of misses/points dropped then the immediate response should be to try to shoot the drill again in the same time (or less) with less misses/points dropped; not just a faster time. Speed can be obtained in many ways when shooting. Sacrificing accuracy is not one of those ways. Remember, the OP specifically stated in the title "without losing accuracy." I know a lot of people jump in without reading the entire thread or forget the original post due to the course of the thread, however we have to remember the original question and answer accordingly. Maintaining accuracy means following the sight through the shot and completing basic fundamentals, not ignoring them mid shot I order to pick up perceived speed that can and should be accomplished elsewhere. Red, I agree that misses are not acceptable Blue, I disagree 100%, depending on your particular goal at the time. |
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Posted: 2/27/2016 10:58:59 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Red, I agree that misses are not acceptable Blue, I disagree 100%, depending on your particular goal at the time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I agree that misses/points dropped will happen. That does not make it acceptable. What seems to have been stated was that misses are acceptable in order to gain speed. That is entirely false. While they happen, in training, practice, competition, or the street, they should never be considered acceptable. That is a mindset issue that leads to bigger problems. If a certain drill can be shot in X time with Y amount of misses/points dropped then the immediate response should be to try to shoot the drill again in the same time (or less) with less misses/points dropped; not just a faster time. Speed can be obtained in many ways when shooting. Sacrificing accuracy is not one of those ways. Remember, the OP specifically stated in the title "without losing accuracy." I know a lot of people jump in without reading the entire thread or forget the original post due to the course of the thread, however we have to remember the original question and answer accordingly. Maintaining accuracy means following the sight through the shot and completing basic fundamentals, not ignoring them mid shot I order to pick up perceived speed that can and should be accomplished elsewhere. Red, I agree that misses are not acceptable Blue, I disagree 100%, depending on your particular goal at the time. The habits you pick up in training and practice, both good and bad, will carry over into your performance in competition or the street. This is a proven and undenyable fact. Training with the lack of proper mindset about your goals and objectives is just playing. I'm not saying that each practice session needs to simulate a classifier or SHTF, but you do need to have the same mindset and drive as you would in those scenarios. |
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Posted: 2/27/2016 11:05:03 AM EDT
[#32]
I'll add to this slightly...
I'm looking to maintain all the fundamentals while picking up the speed without sacrificing accuracy. Of course I know I'll have misses and I will train till I fail, in my opinion failure is an opportunity to learn. On the other hand I would like to train correctly and minimize the failures by paying attention to my weaknesses and learning from them. I'm a huge advocate of training "right". I see too many people on YouTube or wherever giving slightly off advice. I have received great responses from you guys so far and I really and grateful for that. Also just got my Pocket Pro 2 in the mail yesterday, so I will report back after I give it a shot. I have been doing dry fire drills with it and I can already tell it will definitely help me. |
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Posted: 3/27/2016 2:44:13 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 4/21/2016 5:17:01 AM EDT
[#34]
This is hard to explain without showing in person but I'll do my best. This is what helped me and was shown to me by an FBI Academy shooting instructor.
When your arms are fully extended in your shooting stance roll your elbows in almost like your trying to sqeeze your chest like a girl trying to make her boobs bigger by squeezing them together. Try to roll your elbows in towards your centerline like you're trying to touch them together. Another way of explaining this motion is rolling your forearms upwards so the sun hits them. Maybe this is dumb common knowledge I don't know but it helped me greatly with practice. If this doesn't make sense PM me and I will email you a video of what I'm trying to explain. This is what helped me and many others that were in the class with me. I'm not saying this is the answer or the best way to shoot or what have you. Just a suggestion of something you can try. It greatly helped me with recoil control. Less movement of the firearm means you pick up the sights quicker and get back on target quicker. Edit to add: I am not FBI. Just your run of the mill LEO who has been lucky enough to run into a few great instructors. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 9:31:23 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is hard to explain without showing in person but I'll do my best. This is what helped me and was shown to me by an FBI Academy shooting instructor. When your arms are fully extended in your shooting stance roll your elbows in almost like your trying to sqeeze your chest like a girl trying to make her boobs bigger by squeezing them together. Try to roll your elbows in towards your centerline like you're trying to touch them together. Another way of explaining this motion is rolling your forearms upwards so the sun hits them. Maybe this is dumb common knowledge I don't know but it helped me greatly with practice. If this doesn't make sense PM me and I will email you a video of what I'm trying to explain. This is what helped me and many others that were in the class with me. I'm not saying this is the answer or the best way to shoot or what have you. Just a suggestion of something you can try. It greatly helped me with recoil control. Less movement of the firearm means you pick up the sights quicker and get back on target quicker. Edit to add: I am not FBI. Just your run of the mill LEO who has been lucky enough to run into a few great instructors. Now go use that technique on some 120-150 degree transitions and see what happens. Try shooting on the move with that technique and see what happens. It's suboptimal, at best. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 1:10:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now go use that technique on some 120-150 degree transitions and see what happens. Try shooting on the move with that technique and see what happens. It's suboptimal, at best. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is hard to explain without showing in person but I'll do my best. This is what helped me and was shown to me by an FBI Academy shooting instructor. When your arms are fully extended in your shooting stance roll your elbows in almost like your trying to sqeeze your chest like a girl trying to make her boobs bigger by squeezing them together. Try to roll your elbows in towards your centerline like you're trying to touch them together. Another way of explaining this motion is rolling your forearms upwards so the sun hits them. Maybe this is dumb common knowledge I don't know but it helped me greatly with practice. If this doesn't make sense PM me and I will email you a video of what I'm trying to explain. This is what helped me and many others that were in the class with me. I'm not saying this is the answer or the best way to shoot or what have you. Just a suggestion of something you can try. It greatly helped me with recoil control. Less movement of the firearm means you pick up the sights quicker and get back on target quicker. Edit to add: I am not FBI. Just your run of the mill LEO who has been lucky enough to run into a few great instructors. Now go use that technique on some 120-150 degree transitions and see what happens. Try shooting on the move with that technique and see what happens. It's suboptimal, at best. For static shooting, yes that technique helps. For movement, your goal is not shooting fast rather maintaining the accuracy. As you are transitioning your speed from movement to static, and vice cerea, so should your forearm pressure adjust. |
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Posted: 4/21/2016 4:08:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now go use that technique on some 120-150 degree transitions and see what happens. Try shooting on the move with that technique and see what happens. It's suboptimal, at best. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is hard to explain without showing in person but I'll do my best. This is what helped me and was shown to me by an FBI Academy shooting instructor. When your arms are fully extended in your shooting stance roll your elbows in almost like your trying to sqeeze your chest like a girl trying to make her boobs bigger by squeezing them together. Try to roll your elbows in towards your centerline like you're trying to touch them together. Another way of explaining this motion is rolling your forearms upwards so the sun hits them. Maybe this is dumb common knowledge I don't know but it helped me greatly with practice. If this doesn't make sense PM me and I will email you a video of what I'm trying to explain. This is what helped me and many others that were in the class with me. I'm not saying this is the answer or the best way to shoot or what have you. Just a suggestion of something you can try. It greatly helped me with recoil control. Less movement of the firearm means you pick up the sights quicker and get back on target quicker. Edit to add: I am not FBI. Just your run of the mill LEO who has been lucky enough to run into a few great instructors. Now go use that technique on some 120-150 degree transitions and see what happens. Try shooting on the move with that technique and see what happens. It's suboptimal, at best. I do and I'm not sure what you're implying by "see what happens". For me it works well so for me, that's what happens but YMMV. It's not like you're running around keeping your arms extended like this at all times. In fact your arms don't need to be fully extended to start rolling your forearms upwards. It happens as you acquire your sights. And obviously not every situation calls for this technique. And I'm not saying it's the best by any means or has no flaw, I just don't see how moving or transitions affects this whatsoever. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 10:05:37 AM EDT
[#38]
To each his own. IMO the technique described introduces unnecessary tension and stiffness in the chest, arms, and shoulders and limits mobility.
I prefer to keep a comfortable outward bend in the elbows to allow maximum mobility and allow the arms to act as "shock absorbers". |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 10:09:00 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For static shooting, yes that technique helps. For movement, your goal is not shooting fast rather maintaining the accuracy. As you are transitioning your speed from movement to static, and vice cerea, so should your forearm pressure adjust. Quote HistoryQuoted: For static shooting, yes that technique helps. For movement, your goal is not shooting fast rather maintaining the accuracy. As you are transitioning your speed from movement to static, and vice cerea, so should your forearm pressure adjust. With respect, when SOTM my goal absolutely is shooting fast. I've got somewhere to be in a hurry otherwise I wouldn't be SOTM at all. My forearm and hand pressure remains constant (ideally). |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 2:35:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To each his own. IMO the technique described introduces unnecessary tension and stiffness in the chest, arms, and shoulders and limits mobility. I prefer to keep a comfortable outward bend in the elbows to allow maximum mobility and allow the arms to act as "shock absorbers". While It don't teach for the prestigious Appleseed Project, I have been advocating the aforementioned method for years to thousands of military, federal LE, Diplomatic Security contractors, and a civilian or two with great success and improvements in their shooting speeds. The DoS high threat course hasn't been around as long as Appleseed but we do base our techniques on current industry best practices seen from US SOF, LE, and competition shooting professionals. I haven't seen anyone, other than you, advocate elbows out and letting them absorb the recoil when shooting but hey, perhaps Appleseed is bringing back some centuries old techniques for speed shooting that no one else knows about. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 2:36:51 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With respect, when SOTM my goal absolutely is shooting fast. I've got somewhere to be in a hurry otherwise I wouldn't be SOTM at all. My forearm and hand pressure remains constant (ideally). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For static shooting, yes that technique helps. For movement, your goal is not shooting fast rather maintaining the accuracy. As you are transitioning your speed from movement to static, and vice cerea, so should your forearm pressure adjust. With respect, when SOTM my goal absolutely is shooting fast. I've got somewhere to be in a hurry otherwise I wouldn't be SOTM at all. My forearm and hand pressure remains constant (ideally). If you have to be somewhere fast, then stop shooting. When it's time to move: move. When it's time to shoot: shoot. |
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Posted: 4/22/2016 10:59:28 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While It don't teach for the prestigious Appleseed Project, I have been advocating the aforementioned method for years to thousands of military, federal LE, Diplomatic Security contractors, and a civilian or two with great success and improvements in their shooting speeds. The DoS high threat course hasn't been around as long as Appleseed but we do base our techniques on current industry best practices seen from US SOF, LE, and competition shooting professionals. I haven't seen anyone, other than you, advocate elbows out and letting them absorb the recoil when shooting but hey, perhaps Appleseed is bringing back some centuries old techniques for speed shooting that no one else knows about. Feel free to disagree with me but do it on the merits, not ad hominem attacks. |
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Posted: 4/23/2016 11:44:47 AM EDT
[#43]
[Deleted]
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Posted: 4/24/2016 6:12:31 PM EDT
[#44]
I'm not interested in bickering or having an E-peen measuring contest.
To the readers of this thread, I hope you'll try the different techniques mentioned and see what works for your own self. I post on here because I enjoy helping others shoot better. I do not claim to know everything there is to know about pistol shooting. I'm on the same path of continuous education and improvement myself. I'm not a gunfighter, and don't care to be one. I do, however, know what works and what doesn't, through trial and error and experimentation and hard work. I'll never advocate or advise a technique that I don't employ myself and haven't thoroughly vetted. Look to respected sources and instructors for your information, and try to train with those sorts of people in person if you can. Make sure they have a performance-based philosophy and teach technical skills. I like guys with a reputation as excellent technical diagnosticians. |
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Posted: 4/28/2016 12:02:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: [Deleted] You are welcome to disagree with any information posted here, but you are not allowed to sling insults, especially based off of information you gained from a restricted forum. |
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Posted: 5/14/2017 1:19:52 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While It don't teach for the prestigious Appleseed Project, I have been advocating the aforementioned method for years to thousands of military, federal LE, Diplomatic Security contractors, and a civilian or two with great success and improvements in their shooting speeds. The DoS high threat course hasn't been around as long as Appleseed but we do base our techniques on current industry best practices seen from US SOF, LE, and competition shooting professionals. I haven't seen anyone, other than you, advocate elbows out and letting them absorb the recoil when shooting but hey, perhaps Appleseed is bringing back some centuries old techniques for speed shooting that no one else knows about. |
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Posted: 5/15/2017 11:41:49 PM EDT
[#47]
Bob Vogel agrees on the elbows out/torsion-based recoil control...
 Bob Vogel on Grip |
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Posted: 5/16/2017 11:05:18 PM EDT
[#48]
A picture is worth 1000 words. He're what my elbows look like, FWIW.
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Posted: 5/25/2017 2:11:42 PM EDT
[#49]
A warm up for me consists of drawing from the holster and ensuring a solid grip. Not just a good grip on the pistol grip but the grip that you mentally know is the one where you can best control recoil and the gun. Practice your footing and natural sight picture.
After this I will draw with the good grip, proper footing, correctly squaring up with the target, locking out my elbows, dry fire, reholster. Then I'll draw, do the other steps and fire one shot, then reholster. Ensure my shots are where I want them to be and do the same process over and over. All of this I do slowly, like slug slow. Eventually everything starts to speed up as I get more comfortable. There is no point to quickly draw and shoot if your not reinforcing good fundamentals and not hitting where you want to hit. |
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Posted: 5/25/2017 2:15:15 PM EDT
[#50]
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