My brother and I were researching the Appleseed events, and were left a little confused by some of the rules / commentary.  I've read a couple of the threads on here, but still wanted to check on some things.  I have no idea where or when we would get together to do one if we decide to, but had the following basic questions:

(1)  The program calls back to the American rifleman tradition, but it seems like a majority of the events are restricted to rimfire .22 only and a lot of folks online write about shooting a Ruger .22 or the like.  Is it more geared for .22 shooters in most areas?

(2)  The FAQ seems to allow optics, but the comments online indicated that the instructors did not allow Aimpoints/EOtechs/etc to be utilized for score for the "Rifleman" patch even if the shooter made the score (read this on a forum, can't remember which one). Yet scopes were allowed for score to account for eyesight issues.  A little lost on that one, what's the real deal?

(3)  Percentage wise, how much time is spent on learning American history versus shooting?  The heritage/history portion is actually very appealing to us.   Is it a block of instruction or just an underlying theme throughout?

Thanks

1. We had both rimfire and centerfire in the class I took. I understand that some of the ranges they use limit things to rimfire, but that's just hearsay. The concepts and techniques apply regardless of what caliber.

2. No info. We used open sights.

3. Seems like it was maybe 70/30 shooting and instruction to history tales.

Someone who has more experience than mine can probably chime in with more detail.

Thanks for the input on it.  70/30 sounds pretty good for the shooting/history split.

Each cadre and shoot is different. There are some human biases within instructors, but the program is designed to be supportive, educational, and open to all.
(1) Rimfire vs centerfire: Some ranges are limited to rimfire and some events limit what can be brought. If the range allows, the event should be open to all.
Both have pros/cons, but I have seen (and done myself) qualifying scores shot on either, both 25 yard shoots and known-distance shoots (out to 100 yd for rimfire and 400 for centerfire).

(2) Nothing I have seen in the rules (except there is a different score for the Distingusied award for irons vs optics) that prohibits optics. Again, there is human bias that will come into play, but a "you can't hit what you can't see" mentality should be supported by good instructors. if you want to run irons, a red dot, a 4X, a 1-6 or anything else, if you follow the instructions you can do well. Use what you want. I have only qualified with optics.

(3) Instruction vs history. Very cadre dependant. There are certain lessons that should be given on a two day course, and the delivery can vary from 3 15 minute sessions to drawing them out to 45 minutes each.

more info in these threads:
Info

Marksmanship

@intheburbs
@Lomshek

Thanks for the heads up!  Happy to help answer questions.

I'm an Appleseed shoot boss and have been in the program as a shooter, range host or instructor almost since the program began.

Appleseed is open to any caliber.  Here's the quote directly from the Appleseed FAQ.
Caliber limitations are purely up to the host range.  Out of the ranges in Kansas I instruct at one is .22LR only.  Usually that's because of the berm construction or proximity of the range to houses for noise.

If you have an AR and are OK with burning up the ammo you'll learn more about a stable position that resists recoil by firing a centerfire but if you want to spend less on ammo a Ruger 10/22 or some other brand of .22LR magazine fed semi-auto is fine.  Folks can use bolt guns and tube fed rifles also but those introduce enough additional challenges that they're worth avoiding if you have other options (at least at first).  Regardless, we'll work with what you have.
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Any optics (or irons) are allowed.  Period.  If someone said otherwise somewhere else they are incorrect.  Way back when Appleseed was founded and everyone was using M1's or M1A's there was the belief that optics would get you "killed in combat".  Like the rest of the world Appleseed long ago realized that was bogus.  Optics are not only allowed they are welcomed.
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We intersperse history lessons during both days of shooting and it's an underlying (not really underlying, actually blatant) theme throughout.  We use the history to break up the shooting and shooting lessons to give the students a physical break.  Typically the history takes up about 1 - 1.5 hours total on day one (out of a 9 hour day) and an hour or less of day two.

We tell the history because we want shooters to appreciate the sacrifices made to start this great nation.  We focus on day one of the Revolution because before the Continental Army was ever mustered the local militias got the job done.  They were regular people who crawled out of their warm beds and assembled with their neighbors and relatives in the cool April morning to tell King George to shove his gun grabbing attempts where the sun doesn't shine.

Thanks @Lomshek,

It's particular good to hear about the history portion being more blatant so to speak.

So what is the difference in scoring for irons vs optics as RegulararGuy said?  It sounds like irons are still preferred if there are two different scores.

Shooting the AR-15 sounds best to me, yet potentially expensive depending on round count.  I was looking at a .22-cal AR and saw that S&W's were going for about $330, but noticed they were barred from the events.  I would have to figure it out closer to go time probably.

There is no scoring difference.  Appleseed long ago acknowledged that optics are simply the preferred sighting system for all the obvious reasons.

To earn the Rifleman badge requires shooting at least 210 out of 250 possible points on the AQT regardless of sights or action type.  No handicap "gimme" points are allowed.

Appleseed did create a Distinguished bar last year to recognize unusually high scores.  A score of 230 with irons earns the Distinguished badge while it takes 240 with a scope.  Either way we don't get a lot of Distinguished shooters (only two in Kansas in the 1 1/2 years of that bar's existence).  There is a separate 250 bar for anyone who shoots a perfect score but that's extremely rare as in I've never had a shooter earn one in the 10+ years I've been in the program.



I was incredibly proud when my son was the first shooter in Kansas to earn the Distinguished badge when he shot a 239 with Tech Sight irons on a 10/22.

Sorry for the confusion. To qualify for the Rifleman patch, you need to score a 210 on the AQT (Appleseed Qualification Test). Doesn't matter irons/optics for that.
Once you have your Rifleman, you can go beyond and if you shoot 230 or higher using iron sights or 240 or higher using optics you earn a Distinguished rocker. You can also earn a 250 rocker if you shoot a perfect score.
With that said, please don't get wrapped around what scores are needed to earn which patch and which way is 'harder' to earn it.
Get a rifle that you are comfortable with, and enjoy to shoot and then figure out if you want to run optics or irons, based on your preference. Get your set up for you, and not to earn a piece of cloth, and I think the experience will be more beneficial and enjoyable in the long run for you.

Hope that helps. Go in with an open mind, be ready to learn, and have a good time.

@regulararguy

Yes that helps a great deal, thank you for the information and clarification on it.

That last bit you mentioned is why I would like to use a centerfire AR instead of the .22.  Ammo cost is the only factor for me (and range rules of course given what you guys have just written).

@Lomshek,

Thanks for the information (I had to edit, I missed your reply when I saw RegularArGuy's).  That system makes more sense to me now.  Good job to your son!  Good looking paper on that one.

The S&W 15-22 is probably not going to be allowed back in Appleseed unless something changes at S&W.  There have been a small amount of dangerous issues like runaway guns that S&W blames on stuff like ammo.  Since we instructors can't be the ammo police checking each shooter's ammo against the manual the hsort asnwer is Appleseed threw their hands up and said no after getting the runaround from S&W.

There are some great dedicated .22LR uppers or parts a person can get from CMMG, Right To Bear, Beyer barrels and others that let you use your existing lowers.

One thing I'd caution about with centerfire is avoid the cheap steel cased stuff.  The accuracy is less than ideal with most shooting to 6 MOA at best which can lead to some bad feedback when you're trying to self diagnose shooting errors and getting misses when you thought you did everything right.

Every brass cased ammo I've ever fired has been plenty accurate for Appleseed.  Wolf Gold, PMC, Federal and everything else has done fine.

Another suggestion/request is to either remove a muzzle brake or use a blast can.  You'll shoot 500-600 rounds at most Appleseeds and no one wants to be around a brake for that many rounds especially right next to it.

This is all new to me and some good information. Looks like there is an Appleseed event about 5 min from my house every couple of months.

I may be signing up for the next one on March

Alabama has some great instructors and the CMP home range is used regularly for full distance Appleseed shoots.  You'll love it!