I had an interesting conversation with a weird guy earlier who claims to be a current Marine. He tried to tell me that current marines are now being trained to take pelvic shots to compensate for the lack of stopping power of 5.56.

Just curious if any current of recent marines can speak to this or whether he was the reject/liar I think that he is?

Well I guess it's one way to disable someone.  I would choose the guts over the pelvis.  Pelvis sounds horrible.

We had targets with pelvic zone when I was in 08-13

might be a way to compensate for body armor worn by the target, but not for lack of power of the 556

Body armor has been a thing for a couple decades now.

Face or pelvis.

Marines have trained pelvic shots as an option for failure to stop drills.  It's not that pelvic girdle shots are ideal, it's just they tend to not be covered by rifle armor.Personally I prefer T box shots.

This.

Anyone will drop from shattered hip bones, they aren't protected by armor, and they're centrally located relative to the target's movement.

If they surrender, and survive to be interrogated, their speech won't be hindered by the wound.
They'll be in great pain of course.

That's what my Marine buddy said anyway.

Catastrophic pelvic injuries are very difficult to treat, and one of the surest ways to die. But, I suppose he's right in theory.

Pelvic shots have been a viable option for some time.  Not only are there lots of blood vessels, there are plenty of nerves, and it will help break down the underlying structure that helps an assailant stand.  Plenty of blood vessels, nerves and bones to mess up, makes it a very effective place to put your shots.

Dr. Fackler disagrees.

“lack of stopping power”

Body armor doesn't cover that area


What I said is, if a federal agent comes knocking at your door— specifically BATF—says I have a search warrant, open the door, let him in, stand aside and let him search. What I said is, if they come shooting—they’re shooting at you now—you have the right to self-defense, and in that event, if they’ve got a body-protection armor on, you are best to shoot to the groin area.”

—G. Gordon Liddy, Crossfire, 4/25/95

Well a pelvic shot has a higher likelihood to kill an assailant quicker than a gut shot. Both femoral arteries run through the pelvis and if a bone or bullet fragment ruptures one of them then you have minutes to stop the bleeding before death. Gut shots could take hours or more to kill someone. And even if its not a fatal wound, its awful hard to walk with a shattered pelvis.

I (LE firearms trainer) train the pelvic girdle shot as an alternative armor drill if the head is protected or not accessible.

https://primaryandsecondary.com/fackler-discusses-shots-to-the-pelivic-area/

Former 0311 here, in the Corps from '05 to '09

In ITB we were primarily trained in the classic "two to the chest, one to the head" style shooting or as we say, "hammer pair to center mass, one to the head." We were taught to aim for an upside down triangular area of the face between the outside of the eyes and tip of the nose (when facing the enemy head on) in order to destroy the cerebellum (or brain stem), and thus terminate body movement. I don't remember pelvic shots being trained, but it sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Clint agrees

Maybe the OP's weird contact was just pulling his hits low and that was his explanation.

Inverted Mozambique Drill:
"2 in the trunk, 1 in the junk!"

I've fractured my pelvis as well, thanks to a 300 dude smashing me into the ground. I continued playing for a couple weeks until it finally localized and it was excruciating; like knives in my ass, thanks to the nerve bundles running through that area. Turns out I'd displaced the pubic symphysis and fractured the tubercle head. Very "minor" injury.

High-velocity penetrating trauma is entirely different in most circumstances; the pelvic girdle is loaded with vital components, and fragmentation can be almost random - I've seen gunshots to the upper thigh end up in chest cavities, lower legs, etc. You take a shot through there and it's like a shitty quality of life from there on.

I hit a few pelvic shots during practice today.  Otherwise known as a "D".

So, a couple things here.  There’s no such thing as “stopping power”.  People often associate kinetic energy (KE) transfer as stopping power because more energy supposedly “stops” threats, but that’s a misnomer.  It’s completely bogus for pistols, but for rifles you are dealing with a round that is carrying enough velocity to cause the kinetic energy transfer from the bullet into the body to deform and stretch the soft tissue beyond its elastic limit.  I’ve seen .223/5.56 bullets punch through people and leave holes the size of a tennis ball upon exit.  It’s hard to argue that .223/5.56 isn’t a sufficient round to put people down, because it’s got a pretty substantial kill list.  In a study I saw several years ago, better than 95% of LE .223/5.56 shootings resulted in an effective incapacitation.  I’m not sure if there’s been any recent studies to update this, however.  

The problem is that bullet construction plays a major part in this, and a lot of current military lore about the lack of capability of the 5.56 comes from both Vietnam and, more recently, Operation Gothic Serpent/Mogadishu.  In Vietnam, the 55gr FMJ did a decent job, but the major thing people dealt with was a combination of shooting through foliage, poor shot placement, and shooting smaller stature people.  In Mogadishu, there were reports of round zipping right through enemies.  This is because they had so little body mass that the rounds could not deform or yaw and transfer that energy.  It’s also because Somali fighters were high on Khat, which is an amphetamine, and they didn’t feel very much pain.  In Iraq and Afghanistan, this has not been a problem with the 5.56 and I saw plenty of turds get put down in Iraq with 5.56.  The problem is that people expect that you can shoot someone in the side of the abdomen or the calf and put them down with one shot, and that’s just not the case; regardless of what caliber you use (okay, short of a .50BMG or 40mm HE).

The military solved this problem partially by switching to the M855A1 EPR, which is designed to deform upon impact on soft tissue.  However, it’s worth nothing that the M855A1 is still a penetrator round, and won’t do the same thing to a body as the 70gr Brown Tip Optimal OTM, Mk262 Mod1 or Mk318, which all deform or fragment upon impact and create substantially more consistent wound cavities.  

Having said all that, when we talk about “incapacitation”, we are talking about one of four things: Immediate incapacitation (upper CNS disruption), rapid incapacitation (exsanguination/hypovolemia), and incapacitating trauma (physically unable to continue the fight), and psychological incapacitation (no will to continue to fight).  A pelvic girdle shot is designed for incapacitating trauma, which basically will plant an enemy on the ground by disrupting their physical mobility.  Incapacitating trauma is a good way to stop someone from moving, but it’s not a “stop” because you can still work a gun with your hands when your pelvis is shattered.  The pelvic girdle shot is an alternative shot location to the head when shooting a failure drill where body shots are not effective.  

Are the Marines practicing it Corps-wide? No idea.  Maybe it’s your buddy’s unit, or maybe it’s more.  If so, good.  It’s a skill to add to the tool box.  It’s not an end-all-be-all, but it’s something to know, just like head shots.

I also wouldn’t put it past someone in that guy’s unit to teach stuff because they got visited by the Good Idea Fairy, without every actually learning the facts or data behind why they should or should not be teaching it.  Military people saying “stopping power” is akin to military people claiming that 9mm is a bad round that doesn’t work as an explanation for why the .45ACP can shoot down the space shuttle.

I watched one of the John Wick instructional videos the other night- against armored opponents, all you have to do is run among them, continuously shooting them with a handgun, then pull up their helmets and headshot everyone.

Easy peasy,

@NCpatrolAR

Just @ing you cuz of your newer avatar.  Didn’t know if you had put on a class for those guys recently.

First, any time says they are being taught to do something based off a lack of stopping power I’m going to find whatever follows to be highly suspect.  


When I teach military courses I teach torso (high chest), head, and then pelvis as engagement areas.  And this generally holds true for anyone teaching military courses and standard military doctrine.  There are times where I may go to the pelvis initially but those are typically times where it’s the only target available or I’m working in close quarters with a handgun.  

Shooting the pelvis has a ton of myths surrounding it.  While there are major arteries in the area, the are either at the very top of the pelvis or out to the sides.  The center of the pelvis is generally just soft tissue.  The large flat bones tend to have holes punched through them by projectiles and don’t break like normal bones do.  To get that “mobility kill” so many talk about, you need to break several of the smaller, more solid bones and get the bones to start shifting some (still hard because theyre supported by tissue) in order to start effecting movement.

Now the one time pelvic shots are awesome:

When you’re going sim gun work and fools aren’t wearing cups.  Shooting someone in the dick with a sim round is usually an instant fight stopper ;)

Shoot him in the dick and give him a gunt.

Well put.
KE = 1/2 mv squared

permanent and temporary cavitation. Fragmentation, or the yaw of the projectile. Effects on hollow organs, CNS shots, Respiratory disruption and exsanguination, incapacitation, and psychological.
Bullets do weird things.

I like the cut of your jib.

The human face does not fare well when confronted with 5.56.

OUCH! Just OUCH!

Obviously a shot to the mainhousing is ideal(a tongue in cheek comment from you I sense). But think of a boxer with head movement. There's alot of movement up stairs, esp. above the neck. In a dynamic situation the hips are far less mobile and easier to paint and follow with an optic. Im not advocating the practice, "hip bone is not connected to the trigger finger bone." But it will immobilize somebody if catastrophic damage is applied to the pelvic girdle, usually no armor in that region for the sake of mobility (other than dick flaps).

Anybody played football? Where the hips go the body goes? Its the nexus of balance.

Probably both. There are all sorts of stories about the 5.56 having problems in Mogadishu and Afghanistan for that matter. That's why they broke out all the old M-14

If by stories, you mean Blackhawk Down by Mark Bowden, I think they attributed that to using SLAP rounds against humans in an urban engagement. Afghanistan I believe was due to distance. Wasn't the Squad designated Marksman created around that time?

I do remember reading thoughts of those on the ground stating the 5.56 wasn't great against skinny, malnurshished combatants because the bullet didn't have anything to "bite" into. Wasn't there, won't comment.

I've personally seen 5.56 rounds wreck a human body. Distance, velocity, shot placement and bullet construction all play a factor.

I used to instruct at the Weapons and Gunnery Section at the School of Infantry-West from about 2008-2010. Pelvic shots were taught then.

However, it had nothing to do with the "stopping power" or any of that bullshit. It's because getting bullet fucked in the pelvic girdle fucks you up.

Not sure what they're teaching these days though. I've been out since 2012.

ETA: reading some of the post above... the pelvic girdle shots were taught as part of the Mozambique drills. Instead of 2 to the chest and 1 to the head, a Marine could engage the targets with 2 to the chest and 1 to the pelvic girdle. It had nothing to do with body armor,as at the time nut protectors were a thing, but was due to the lower risk of missing compared to trying to put a round in the t-box (large target vs small target).

Additional benefit being, fuck your arteries in that chunk of bone.

It has everything to do with body armor. Neither nut protectors or kevlar helmets protect against rifle rounds. That's why the T box and pelvic girdle are targeted in a failure to stop drill.  If the chest is covered with a plate, those are two decent options for stopping the target. T box being instant lights out, but small and hard to hit. Pelvic girdle having arteries and bones and much easier to hit.

I didn't meant to imply that nut protectors would stop rifle rounds, more that the armor issue as far as it concerns shot placement on a failure drill is really kind of irrelevant.

Chest shots, even on unarmored targets, are far less likely to put a man down faster or as effectively as a rifle round to the tbox or the pelvic girdle.

I disagree. T box is fastest, then chest/heart, then pelvic girdle. Heart shot will put you down quick. Lungs take a bit more time. Pelvic girdle may cause enough bone breakage to drop you and it may not. But you can still shoot with a broken/perforated pelvis. Cut the main arteries and it's still a couple minutes before bleadout.

Pelvic hits are highly inconsistent with rapid incapacitation

Immobilizing was the terminology used back then.

'13-17 here. Also a 0933.

We were taught pelvic girdle as well, for the idea that the head is a much smaller/harder to hit target in the heat of battle. Expecting that chest hits will not be effective on an armored target.

If you take any service caliber, especially a rifle, to the pelvis you're going down, and probably going to bleed out very quickly. In that time you may likely still be able to operate a weapon, but you're definitely not going to be doing anything bi-pedal. At least if you're not moving, and likely in a compromised position, it gives more opportunity for better hits, like a head shot.

While not a doctor, IMO they make the pelvic scoring zone way too big and central. Like the target is wearing a XL diaper. While it would be more difficult, it seems favoring one side to ideally hit the hip socket would also be more likely to catch the femoral. More like having a baseball over each front belt loop.

They also fail to give attention to the spine as a whole. Pretty sure if you catch a bullet to the spine, anything below it will no longer function. IIRC the new pistol qual targets use a bowling pin 10 ring counting throat hits.

But reality doesnt really show that.

It's not necessarily about the lack of stopping power. It's about the fact that just because a bullet goes into their chest doesn't necessarily mean it also went through their heart or lungs, which therefor means a gritty individual still has their bodily functions. It's also about the fact that body armor is a thing that your enemy may be wearing, especially if your enemy is a soldier in the conventional military of an adversarial nation like Russia or China.

Thus, while aiming for center mass is still the main things to do, aiming at important bits other than the chest is still a handy thing to practice doing.

Paul Howe's CSAT targets have a spine and head box, because those are the target areas he has seen are reliable.  For those with less skills the pelvic girdle is an alternative.

Taken courses under Eric at GreenEyeTactical, shot placement into the CNS under all drills was critiqued. Pairs were always measured, two inches from eachother and within two inches of the CNS. That as well as target identification were always forefront.