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SC, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2019 5:37:55 AM EDT
All,
In recent years I noticed more and more that folks whose judgement I respect recommending 100m Zeros. But i believe the old adage that the 50M zero requires no holdover/under from point blank to a bit over 200 (maybe 230 ish) still hold for our 14.5/16 inch Carbines shooting M193. And if one is going up to say 250/300 etc meters.. then its intuitive to me as a shooter than I am now need to hold over but you just dont have to worry about holdover/holdunder until about 220/230 ish meters for most barrel/ammo combinations. While the 100m zero may be very serviceable... but I simply fail to see an advantage over the 50m zero (unless punching paper at exactly 100m) But since people whose judgement I respect have expressed opinions in favor of 100m zero for a tactical rifle maybe I am missing something. Anyone have any good bullets for me to ponder on this (admittedly finer) point? |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2019 6:24:18 AM EDT
[#1]
I'm with you. I used to zero my Ar rifles at 100. But I think I was watching a Pat Rogers video or I read somewhere
50 yards is more practical. You can still take a shot at 25 yards or 100 yards and be pretty close. Something like my .308 bolt action still gets sighted at 100 yards. |
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Posted: 7/4/2019 6:26:33 AM EDT
[#2]
iron sights and red dot at 50 yards. optics at 100 will do it.
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Posted: 7/4/2019 6:34:44 AM EDT
[#3]
50 yards for my irons and RDSs.
For bolt rifles I hunt with I zero 2” high at 100yds. This gives a 3” maximum point blank range about the same as a 50yd zero with a 5.56 AR. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2019 6:46:12 AM EDT
[#4]
For the shooting I do the 50M zero makes the most sense.
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Posted: 7/4/2019 12:29:26 PM EDT
[#5]
Whether it's useful depends on what you're shooting, whether precision matters, and whether you ever shoot at any other distance, especially past 200 yards.
If the vertical dimension of your personal point blank range is three feet tall, then you're good to go for about any target you can see. If it's more sensible, work out the come ups. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2019 3:21:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By reelserious:
iron sights and red dot at 50 yards. optics at 100 will do it. |
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Posted: 7/5/2019 5:19:05 AM EDT
[#7]
My first experience with a 100yd zero was in a Larry Mudget class. IIRC, this is the zero D Platoon was using when Larry was active and later when he was involved in their training. It makes sense from an LE perspective as the justification for the range at which lethal force can be employed is obviously limited save for rare extended range counter-sniper scenarios such as the Texas clock tower incident in 1966. Today LE SWAT has dedicated precision marksmen on their teams.
As civilians we are not limited to departmental mandates. We have the freedom of choice. I stuck with the 50m zero. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/8/2019 3:15:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By reelserious:
iron sights and red dot at 50 yards. optics at 100 will do it. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 7/9/2019 12:13:45 PM EDT
[#9]
The primary advantage of the 100 meter zero is that you dont have to learn hold overs and unders; only hold overs. It is simply "I'm low until I'm at 100, then its POA/POI, then I'm low again" and works well for urban and most CONUS self defense shooting distances. If you are shooting at further distances then you would be better served with the 200 meter zero. Pick one and learn how to shoot well with it.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 7/28/2019 11:06:03 AM EDT
[#10]
I learned a 25m zero in the service and stuck with it. The impact point at 25m and 300m should be the same with M855. It's close enough with M193.
It will require hold unders, but anything aimed center mass usually impacts just below the neck, the point if impact isn't crazy high. With red dots and iron's I much prefer hold unders to hold overs so I don't block my target. Turns guesswork into precision guesswork. |
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Posted: 8/18/2019 5:41:12 PM EDT
[#11]
I learned the 25m zero in the service, and ditched it first chance I got..
Went for the 50yd/200M zero and never looked back... Can make good solid combat effective hits to 300 yds... Optics get 100 yd zeros for the BDC's in them or precision. You'll see a bunch of new trainers float newer (36yd) zero's as the new hotness, but in the end, the 50/200 is a good solid zero with way more pro's then cons. I work for no one but myself, so I can chose the zero I want, and that's the 50/200M |
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Posted: 8/18/2019 8:24:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sierra5]
[#12]
I can’t change your mind, I like them
 . We teach it as it’s a good middle of the road for the distances our guys shoot. It’s given us great performance through the years.
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Posted: 8/20/2019 2:37:29 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Harv24:
You'll see a bunch of new trainers float newer (36yd) zero's as the new hotness Glad to see you're still hanging around here. |
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Posted: 8/20/2019 2:41:09 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sierra5:
I can’t change your mind, I like them . We teach it as it’s a good middle of the road for the distances your guys shoot. It’s given us great performance through the years.
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Posted: 8/20/2019 2:46:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Vigilance elite has a decent YouTube video on different zeros with them all in the same target.
He recommends the 36 yard zero. I still use the 50/200 zero for what its worth. |
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Posted: 8/20/2019 7:29:54 AM EDT
[#16]
Originally Posted By TonyF: Good grief. Will the pathological cycle of minutiae in the training community ever end? Glad to see you're still hanging around here. 
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Posted: 8/20/2019 7:35:55 AM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By Geronimo509:
Vigilance elite has a decent YouTube video on different zeros with them all in the same target. He recommends the 36 yard zero. I still use the 50/200 zero for what its worth. I have yet to find one that has one. But they ALL have a 50 yd line. And Like Pat Roger's you to say , we live in a 200 meter world. and he was pretty much spot on. and as the Red dot is still pretty Ubiquitous, that zero will get you very nice combat effective hits (To steal a phrase from Travis Hailey) and if you look up his video on the various zero's, he does a much better job showing and explaining. but at the end of the day, if you go out and shoot, and pick one and use it, they can all work. I just like the simplicity of the 50/200 and I'm very comfortable with it. And as I have not seen one that is head and shoulders above it, no reason to change. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/19/2019 5:45:39 PM EDT
[#18]
I switched to 50 yard zeros a few years ago (on RDS guns), and haven't found a reason to switch back.
The 50Y is definitely best for me when using a RDS and/or Iron Sights. I'm not sure how I feel about it with a magnified optic. I've been experimenting with my BDC hashes in various ACOGs and don't think a 50Y zero works well. However, I'm not 100% on this yet as I haven't been shooting 200-400 yards that much lately. |
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Posted: 9/20/2019 9:16:48 AM EDT
[#19]
I like the 100 personally... All my ARs, regardless of sights(irons, RDS, 1-4s) get a 100y zero. They all shoot the same ammo & even w/ some velocity differences, its easy for me to remember trajectory. Ive used 25m(ARMY), 50y & finally settled on the 100y... They all work if you put in the time.
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NH, USA
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Posted: 9/26/2019 5:37:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Originally Posted By BlueZ:
All, In recent years I noticed more and more that folks whose judgement I respect recommending 100m Zeros. But i believe the old adage that the 50M zero requires no holdover/under from point blank to a bit over 200 (maybe 230 ish) still hold for our 14.5/16 inch Carbines shooting M193. And if one is going up to say 250/300 etc meters.. then its intuitive to me as a shooter than I am now need to hold over but you just dont have to worry about holdover/holdunder until about 220/230 ish meters for most barrel/ammo combinations. While the 100m zero may be very serviceable... but I simply fail to see an advantage over the 50m zero (unless punching paper at exactly 100m) But since people whose judgement I respect have expressed opinions in favor of 100m zero for a tactical rifle maybe I am missing something. Anyone have any good bullets for me to ponder on this (admittedly finer) point? This works for me but you’ll have to experiment with your rifle and ammunition combination. |
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Posted: 10/7/2019 9:56:16 AM EDT
[#21]
Irons and red dots I do at 50 yards.
Lpvo I do at 100 yards. Red dots for me are a 200 yard or so gun, can push farther but not too easily. Lpvo I can make hits out to 600 with my 11.5" gun and using the nightforce reticle is easier with a 100 yard zero imo. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2019 1:34:31 PM EDT
[#22]
I prefer a 36 yard zero here’s why
https://youtu.be/jttB1kUXfJE |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 1:46:02 PM EDT
[#23]
Originally Posted By xzebra:
I prefer a 36 yard zero here’s why https://youtu.be/jttB1kUXfJE Show me a range outside Military bases that have a 36 yd range? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2019 1:47:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Harv24:
If You’re a Navy SEAL and are told to use it,Then I’m sure its great luckily I’m not and don’t have too... Show me a range outside Military bases that have a 36 yd range? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2019 1:49:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Harv24:
If You’re a Navy SEAL and are told to use it,Then I’m sure its great luckily I’m not and don’t have too... Show me a range outside Military bases that have a 36 yd range? |
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Posted: 10/19/2019 5:44:30 PM EDT
[#26]
Awhile ago....
I get it.. 25 yd target scaled to be on a 36 yd... like that's never been done before... |
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Posted: 10/20/2019 7:09:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Creature]
[#27]
The 36 is an excellent zero...if 300 yards is important to you. But if 0-250 works for you, the 50 is a far better zero. Inside 200, the 50 still works best.
 Attached File |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2020 3:25:23 PM EDT
[#28]
I totally agree with red dot optics, with glass i push it to 100 because my glass accommodates for that particular yardage(meterage lol).
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Posted: 6/9/2020 8:06:50 PM EDT
[#29]
We used the 36m zero in infantry osut in 2007, so it isn't exactly new or navy.
The cadre at Benning had recently trained with asymmetric warfare group and they were trying to incorporate some of that stuff into our training. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 8/13/2020 4:07:36 PM EDT
[#30]
It's been a while but I will (finally ) follow up.
No one has listed any compelling argument away from the 50 m zero.. and those who had good arguments for the 100 would also apply to the 50. I do have a DMR I zero at 100m now but thats due to the graduated BD reticle on my glass optic. |
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Posted: 8/13/2020 4:18:31 PM EDT
[#31]
Originally Posted By BlueZ: It's been a while but I will (finally ) follow up. No one has listed any compelling argument away from the 50 m zero.. and those who had good arguments for the 100 would also apply to the 50. I do have a DMR I zero at 100m now but thats due to the graduated BD reticle on my glass optic. I have a Burris XTRll 1-5x LPVO that I zero at 100 yds because it to, has a BDC reticle. So that's normal. I like and can embrace change, when it's an improvement. but if it only offers a slight incremental improvement, for a certain aspect of the total, that I gain no benefit from, I'm not going to switch. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/9/2020 10:46:28 PM EDT
[#32]
I'm also of the school of thought espousing a 50 yd for irons/RDS and 100yd for magnified optics zero.
Works very well for me. I find the 50yd for irons far superior to the old standby of 25yd. |
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Posted: 9/13/2020 11:45:54 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR: The primary advantage of the 100 meter zero is that you dont have to learn hold overs and unders; only hold overs. It is simply "I'm low until I'm at 100, then its POA/POI, then I'm low again" and works well for urban and most CONUS self defense shooting distances. If you are shooting at further distances then you would be better served with the 200 meter zero. Pick one and learn how to shoot well with it. With a 100m zero you will actually be slightly high at 50m, not low. |
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Posted: 9/22/2020 9:23:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By reelserious: iron sights and red dot at 50 yards. optics at 100 will do it. Same here. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2020 3:05:51 PM EDT
[#35]
Speaking to 5.56, I like the 50 zero for non-magnified sights. I'm not the best shot and don't see likely engagements past 200m or so with rds or irons. So, I like the flatter arc between 0-250 with that zero. For magnified optics, I use a 100 zero on my triangle-reticle optic, because it keeps the impact in the triangle from ~40 to 275yds. For anything with a BDC, go with whatever it is calibrated for.
50/200 is a very acceptable standard if you don't expect to take many shots past 250. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Texsylvanian: With a 100m zero you will actually be slightly high at 50m, not low. Based on what loading and sight height? With a .200bc bullet leaving at 3k fps, and a 2.6 sight height, you should be about .7 low at 50. |
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Posted: 10/19/2020 6:42:29 PM EDT
[#36]
A smart guy I knew said it best years ago... "We live in a 300 meter world" and he was right. Can guys take the 5.56 past that??
Sure, but usually under ideal range conditions, doing it in the field, is a different story... bad guys do not dress in IDPA cardboard brown... nor do they wear Fluorescent orange circles on them. I hit the range last week to check my zero  I do this on my belly using the magazine as a monopod  Gun is a built (Aero Upper/Lower) with a 14.5 Mid length Ballistics Advantage 1/7 barrel/LaRue MBT and a Vortex SPARC AR 2Moa Red dot. Then I take it to 100 yds  All the ballistics programs will tell you that my 100 yd group should be about an inch high, yet there is my 50 and 100 yd group. Next week I'm going to hit a longer range and confirm at 200 and 300 and I will post results. Most shooters I know cannot group at 100 with magnified optics, let alone a 2 MOA red dot. Knowing your gun and being able to apply the fundamentals is way more important then worrying about which zero you just have to have, because that's the Navy SEALs use or what Delta uses. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/3/2020 3:29:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoeDevola]
[#37]
You look nothing like Telly Savalas.
This is a great example of KNOWING your OWN dope. In the end, the only thing that matters is YOUR guns performance and holds at different ranges and with different loads. Pick your poison, no substitute for getting out there and getting to know YOUR gun! I know what my holds are due to getting out with them and shooting at KD. Sometimes things match up perfectly to your favorite chart or graphic, sometimes not. |
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Posted: 11/7/2020 3:00:06 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Harv24: I hit the range last week to check my zero https://i.imgur.com/lxgkFub.jpg Then I take it to 100 yds https://i.imgur.com/8NOXSGn.jpg All the ballistics programs will tell you that my 100 yd group should be about an inch high, yet there is my 50 and 100 yd group. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Harv24: I hit the range last week to check my zero https://i.imgur.com/lxgkFub.jpg Then I take it to 100 yds https://i.imgur.com/8NOXSGn.jpg All the ballistics programs will tell you that my 100 yd group should be about an inch high, yet there is my 50 and 100 yd group. If I may comment. Obviously your 50yd group seems to be about an inch low and the 100yd group somewhat left. Different day. Different weather (sunny / partly cloudy / overcast). Different temp. Different eye pro or new Rx. Beyond age 40 our eyes are subject to aging, sometimes on an annual basis. And who knows, maybe its the difference between an old and new battery? All of these kinds of issues can lead to "tolerance stacking" which may or may not explain your particular situation. Next week I'm going to hit a longer range and confirm at 200 and 300 and I will post results. The sign of a mature and intelligent shooter. |
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Posted: 11/7/2020 8:55:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Harv24]
[#39]
I finally got out to stretch my legs this past Friday. I actually did better at 300 then 200 yds simply because yhe contrast of the tgt to the background sucked at 200 and was better at 300yds.
This is what the tgt looked like at 400 thru my 18 x scope on my bolt gun  and what it looked like at 1X  Here was 200 yd. the rds were scattered. It's hard to see, but one rd went to the left of the green circle, one is inside the 50yd group, the third is on the bottom right corner tape and the 4th is below and right . the 5th rd missed  at 300 I had them group way better as I could actually see better and had a aiming point for the 2MOA dot. I put a copy of my 50/100 yd tgt to be consistent. same rifle, same ammo. the three larger holes on the bottom tgt are from my .308 bolt gun.  I was able to get all 5 on the tgt at 300 (Aiming high chest/low head) a little right, but as Travis Hailey would say, Combat effective hits. And again, this was all with 55 gr Wolf....  I did try to take a 5 rd poke at 400, but because of the tgt and the background, I simply could not make out the tgt. I never put a rd on it. Just goes to show you, you are not always going to see bad guys wearing bright orange 12" wide circles on there chest. Not bad for my 56 year old MK 1 eyeball.... |
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