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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2020 2:30:55 PM EDT
Hello,
I recently put together a setup for long range shooting, with a DD5V5 in 6.5 CM and Vortex Viper PST Gen II. I mounted and leveled the setup as carefully as I could and took it to the range this morning. Fired three shots to get an initial estimate. I started at 50 yards, and group was consistent and level, however windage was 5.5 inches to right. At 50 yards that translates to an 11 MOA correction. Since I have marginal experience with this setup I was wondering if anyone could share their experience of what the initial corrections were? I did not boresight. Thanks in advance. |
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Posted: 5/1/2020 2:57:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Well I have always set a new scope to mechanical zero (MZ) before mounting the scope on a gun. It may be overkill, but you don't know if the scope left the factory set at mechanical zero.
What is MZ you might ask? Simple it the point where the reticle is centered relative to its range of travel within the scope tube. Turn your adjustment knobs all the way in one direction till they stop. Then count the number of COMPLETE turns you make in the other direction until it stops. Divide by 2. Do this for both windage and elevation. Dial the number of turns you get for each knob and your reticle should be MZ'd in the scope. Generally you will be pretty damn close to your POI, but as usual there are exceptions. 5.5 inches off out of the box is not unheard of in light of the above. Maybe Bubba or Chong decided to spin your knobs on the way out the door that day 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2020 3:35:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Ouch. Completely missed that step. I will take a look at it. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Posted: 5/1/2020 4:57:30 PM EDT
[#3]
You don't need to mechanical zero. Honestly it's a waste as you won't be there once zeroed so why go there to begin with? The scope will zero where it zeros. Never done it and never an issue mounting and zeroing a scope.
As to the windage, that will differ from rifle to rifle and also depending on the mounting. Rifles can have crooked drilled base holes and mounts can sit different. 11 MOA is not out of the realm of zeroing. Had a Remington that was much more than that in the past. Had crooked holes. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2020 6:43:44 PM EDT
[#4]
OK. I was thinking more from a perspective of perhaps starting out with a bias, which would mean that I may still be less than 11 MOA from a midpoint based on range of adjustment. Ideally I would like to have my zero in the middle so that I would have a good flexibility on either side. I never paid attention to the fact that the turrets May have already been offset, in which case the delta would have been 11 MOA, but absolute would have been different.
I am worried about the rifle barrel itself having some cant. I purchased this specifically for long range, and went with Daniel Defense specifically for their QC. It would be a shame if it did. They do have good CS so that’s a positive. If I end up having zero luck as I’m stretching it out, I will consider sending it back. |
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Posted: 5/1/2020 7:59:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By browny000: OK. I was thinking more from a perspective of perhaps starting out with a bias, which would mean that I may still be less than 11 MOA from a midpoint based on range of adjustment. Ideally I would like to have my zero in the middle so that I would have a good flexibility on either side. I never paid attention to the fact that the turrets May have already been offset, in which case the delta would have been 11 MOA, but absolute would have been different. I am worried about the rifle barrel itself having some cant. I purchased this specifically for long range, and went with Daniel Defense specifically for their QC. It would be a shame if it did. They do have good CS so that’s a positive. If I end up having zero luck as I’m stretching it out, I will consider sending it back. Well just check from your zero point. Doesn't matter where it is when the scope isn't zeroed as it will move when zeroing. Now that it's zeroed see how much right and left you have. Also you have the reticle to hold any wind if needed if you run out of dialing. |
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Posted: 5/1/2020 8:16:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Most new scopes come from the factory mechanically zeroed. Adjust it to zero.
It's not unusual for a new mount/rings/scope combination to be 10 moa off in any direction. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2020 8:41:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: browny000]
[#7]
I see, thanks. I saw people on YouTube lapping their rings and other stuff to squeeze out that extra bit of precision. I am using an Aero Precision ultralight mount, and outside of torque and level, haven’t applied any corrective measures.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/1/2020 8:41:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Well just check from your zero point. Doesn't matter where it is when the scope isn't zeroed as it will move when zeroing. Now that it's zeroed see how much right and left you have. Also you have the reticle to hold any wind if needed if you run out of dialing. Yes. Thank you much. |
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Posted: 5/3/2020 1:32:14 AM EDT
[#9]
Originally Posted By browny000: Hello, I recently put together a setup for long range shooting, with a DD5V5 in 6.5 CM and Vortex Viper PST Gen II. I mounted and leveled the setup as carefully as I could and took it to the range this morning. Fired three shots to get an initial estimate. I started at 50 yards, and group was consistent and level, however windage was 5.5 inches to right. At 50 yards that translates to an 11 MOA correction. Since I have marginal experience with this setup I was wondering if anyone could share their experience of what the initial corrections were? I did not boresight. Thanks in advance. If I'm understanding you right you're concerned that the scope required 11 MOA of windage adjustment to zero. That could easily be the mount not being perfectly centered to the boreline or the scope just not being quite at center when you started and nothing to sweat. Adjust to a good zero at 50 then go out to 200 and refine it then shoot further. You need to shoot it a little distance to see if you even have a problem. |
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Posted: 5/3/2020 1:24:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Well if you want to see where it's at windage wise, place a mirror in front of the scope and take a look. You will see the crosshairs and the image of where it's set, makes for getting back to mechanical zero a breeze.
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Posted: 5/3/2020 10:17:02 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By browny000: I see, thanks. I saw people on YouTube lapping their rings and other stuff to squeeze out that extra bit of precision. I am using an Aero Precision ultralight mount, and outside of torque and level, haven’t applied any corrective measures. No offense but what is your level of accuracy? You can pour bazillions of dollars into a gun to squeeze every ounce of accuracy out of it but if the Indian launching the arrow is a 1 MOA Indian the arrow is only gonna be a 1 MOA arrow. Way better to get some solid instruction before you worry about silliness from YouTube like lapping rings. |
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Posted: 5/3/2020 10:19:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lomshek: If I'm understanding you right you're concerned that the scope required 11 MOA of windage adjustment to zero. That could easily be the mount not being perfectly centered to the boreline or the scope just not being quite at center when you started and nothing to sweat. Adjust to a good zero at 50 then go out to 200 and refine it then shoot further. You need to shoot it a little distance to see if you even have a problem. Yep^ Or the mating surface between the upper and the barrel...or the rail to the upper...or the side the mount torques down on...or... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/4/2020 2:17:48 AM EDT
[#13]
Noted. Thanks.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/4/2020 2:19:18 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LastRites: Well if you want to see where it's at windage wise, place a mirror in front of the scope and take a look. You will see the crosshairs and the image of where it's set, makes for getting back to mechanical zero a breeze. Thanks! |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/4/2020 2:33:16 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sea2summit: No offense but what is your level of accuracy? You can pour bazillions of dollars into a gun to squeeze every ounce of accuracy out of it but if the Indian launching the arrow is a 1 MOA Indian the arrow is only gonna be a 1 MOA arrow. Way better to get some solid instruction before you worry about silliness from YouTube like lapping rings. None taken. I am new to long range. But as a bench mark, my 3 shot group was within a 1/2 an inch at 50 yards (that's max distance at the range I was that day). Two shots were in roughly the same hole. I have been looking to take a class, but there doesn't seem to be much offered in my locality for long range. Once the virus situation settles I'll expand my search radius. YouTube is indeed a rabbit hole. But it's all I have for now. I am definitely a subpar Indian, however I had the rifle secured fairly well and tried to maintain trigger discipline as best as possible. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/4/2020 2:40:10 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lomshek: If I'm understanding you right you're concerned that the scope required 11 MOA of windage adjustment to zero. That could easily be the mount not being perfectly centered to the boreline or the scope just not being quite at center when you started and nothing to sweat. Adjust to a good zero at 50 then go out to 200 and refine it then shoot further. You need to shoot it a little distance to see if you even have a problem. May be not so much concerned as curious as to whether 11 MOA was a reasonable expectation out of the box, or had I screwed something up. Definitely planning on stretching it out next, I was range limited that day. Do you know there is a way to ensure better alignment between mount horizontal axis and bore axis during installation? Thanks for the advice. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/4/2020 2:42:12 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sea2summit: Yep^ Or the mating surface between the upper and the barrel...or the rail to the upper...or the side the mount torques down on...or... I see. Thanks. |
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Posted: 5/4/2020 10:35:02 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Browny00: None taken. I am new to long range. But as a bench mark, my 3 shot group was within a 1/2 an inch at 50 yards (that's max distance at the range I was that day). Two shots were in roughly the same hole. I have been looking to take a class, but there doesn't seem to be much offered in my locality for long range. Once the virus situation settles I'll expand my search radius. YouTube is indeed a rabbit hole. But it's all I have for now. I am definitely a subpar Indian, however I had the rifle secured fairly well and tried to maintain trigger discipline as best as possible. Check out longrangehunting of the dot com and snipershide lots of good, and questionable, info over there. Better than YT for the most part. 1/2” at fifty with three shots is probably 1.5-2” at 100 with five shots. Hard to tell much at 50 and even harder with three shots unless you have a couple groups of three right at 1/2. It’s a long journey and I am not an expert. |
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Posted: 5/4/2020 10:35:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lomshek]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Browny00: Do you know there is a way to ensure better alignment between mount horizontal axis and bore axis during installation? Thanks for the advice. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Browny00: Originally Posted By Lomshek: If I'm understanding you right you're concerned that the scope required 11 MOA of windage adjustment to zero. That could easily be the mount not being perfectly centered to the boreline or the scope just not being quite at center when you started and nothing to sweat. Adjust to a good zero at 50 then go out to 200 and refine it then shoot further. You need to shoot it a little distance to see if you even have a problem. Do you know there is a way to ensure better alignment between mount horizontal axis and bore axis during installation? Thanks for the advice. No I don't. My method (on AR's) is to true the face of the receiver and use a high quality scope mount (Geissele in my case). It isn't a 100% guarantee but buying high end stuff helps. Keep in mind the scope could have just been some number of MOA off of center anyway so the fact that it took 11 MOA to zero doesn't mean that you're 11 MOA or more off of center if 11 MOA was even something to be worried about. |
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Posted: 5/4/2020 11:01:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Browny00: I have been looking to take a class, but there doesn't seem to be much offered in my locality for long range. Once the virus situation settles I'll expand my search radius. I wouldn't use the DD5 for it but you might consider taking an Appleseed class as a first step. I've used a 5.56 AR. It's not a long range precision class but the principles they teach apply equally to long range stuff and it's a lot cheaper than dropping $500+ on a long range class. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/5/2020 3:30:09 PM EDT
[#21]
I am not familiar with that, but I'll look into it. I do have a 5.56 platform that I am much better with. Thank you.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/5/2020 3:33:50 PM EDT
[#22]
I see. Thanks.
I was of the opinion that Aero precision was a decent brand, but I will look at other mounts. All is adding up faster than I thought. I started out a few months ago with a $1500 budget :/ |
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Posted: 5/5/2020 4:13:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Browny00: I see. Thanks. I was of the opinion that Aero precision was a decent brand, but I will look at other mounts. All is adding up faster than I thought. I started out a few months ago with a $1500 budget :/ Aero is fine just not "uber" tier. Honestly I think you'd be wasting your money on a new mount until you shoot this one enough at greater distance to see if it's a problem. If you really want to nerd out on diagnostics you can set your scope windage to mechanical zero (center of clicks) then re-zero it and see if you're actually 11 MOA off of center or just 11 MOA off of wherever the scope was at when you bought it. If it is 11 MOA off of center, as others have said, it could just as easily be the front face of the receiver not being square as the mount not being true. |
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Posted: 5/5/2020 5:29:50 PM EDT
[#24]
How much up elevation do you have with your zero now?
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/5/2020 6:56:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: How much up elevation do you have with your zero now? It was right on the mark vertically so I didn't need any at 50 yards. I'll see what happens as it is stretched. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/5/2020 7:00:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lomshek: Aero is fine just not "uber" tier. Honestly I think you'd be wasting your money on a new mount until you shoot this one enough at greater distance to see if it's a problem. If you really want to nerd out on diagnostics you can set your scope windage to mechanical zero (center of clicks) then re-zero it and see if you're actually 11 MOA off of center or just 11 MOA off of wherever the scope was at when you bought it. If it is 11 MOA off of center, as others have said, it could just as easily be the front face of the receiver not being square as the mount not being true. That's the plan. As soon as I get a chance this week I'll verify that. Shame on me for not paying attention to the dial before shooting. At this point I do agree that I will just shoot more. Ammo is getting expensive, but there is no substitute for practice and experience. |
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Posted: 5/5/2020 7:18:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Browny00: It was right on the mark vertically so I didn't need any at 50 yards. I'll see what happens as it is stretched. No I am asking how much up you have. Dial the knob up from your zero and see how much elevation you have. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/5/2020 7:21:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: No I am asking how much up you have. Dial the knob up from your zero and see how much elevation you have. Oh, sorry. I'll take a look and get back, not on site right now. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/14/2020 7:50:38 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: No I am asking how much up you have. Dial the knob up from your zero and see how much elevation you have. Sorry for the late reply. I got back home took out the scope and realized that it had somehow picked up a spec on the glass that would not go away. I was withing the 30 day period so I sent it back for a new one. It arrived today. I counted something like 139 clicks from where the factory had it set. It's the milrad version. |
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Posted: 5/14/2020 7:54:01 PM EDT
[#30]
First stop thinking or talking in clicks
 So 13.9 mils up from factory. Now go zero it and see what you end up with. That will tell the tale. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/14/2020 7:54:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: No I am asking how much up you have. Dial the knob up from your zero and see how much elevation you have. Sorry for the late reply. I got back home took out the scope and realized that it had somehow picked up a spec on the glass that would not go away. I was withing the 30 day period so I sent it back for a new one. It arrived today. I counted something like 139 clicks from where the factory had it set. It's the milrad version. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/14/2020 7:58:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: First stop thinking or talking in clicks So 13.9 mils up from factory. Now go zero it and see what you end up with. That will tell the tale. I'm headed to the range tomorrow. Let's see how this one does. I'm about to mount it. Embarrassed to say but I'm too poor for a vise right now, so it's just sandbags and levels. |
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Posted: 5/14/2020 8:01:45 PM EDT
[#33]
I use my bipod and a level. Use what works.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2020 6:11:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Got to the range this morning. Still at the 50 yard for now. First three shots approx. 4.5 inches to right, and about an 1 inch low. Corrected approximately 26 milrads to the left and 4 milrad up. I was able to put it 4 shots within 0.5 inches of one another on the 1 inch bullseye.
Subsequent testing revelead degraded accuracy but generally all my 4 shot groups were within an inch. I am fairly certain I am to blame, and definitely need to take a class. I think there is an Appleseed near me, so I'll start with that. I feel as if though I am struggling with the trigger. I have a SD3G on my AR15 and I am use to having that break almost upon contact, therefore very easy to control a shot. On this rifle, I put an SSA-E. I like the two stages, but I feel that breaking the second stage is where I am performing poorly and throwing off my shots. Anyways figure I would update. Thanks to all of those who helped. |
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Posted: 5/15/2020 6:18:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Rob01]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Browny00: Got to the range this morning. Still at the 50 yard for now. First three shots approx. 4.5 inches to right, and about an 1 inch low. Corrected approximately 26 milrads to the left and 4 milrad up. I was able to put it 4 shots within 0.5 inches of one another on the 1 inch bullseye. Subsequent testing revelead degraded accuracy but generally all my 4 shot groups were within an inch. I am fairly certain I am to blame, and definitely need to take a class. I think there is an Appleseed near me, so I'll start with that. I feel as if though I am struggling with the trigger. I have a SD3G on my AR15 and I am use to having that break almost upon contact, therefore very easy to control a shot. On this rifle, I put an SSA-E. I like the two stages, but I feel that breaking the second stage is where I am performing poorly and throwing off my shots. Anyways figure I would update. Thanks to all of those who helped. So how much up elevation do you have after zeroing? Also something doesn’t sound right with your corrections. First, use the reticle to tell you how far you need to move. The reticle has marks on it that correlate to mils. Second, 26 mils is not 4.5”. 26mils is about 46”. Did you mean 2.6 mils? And .4 mils up? Also did you zero it so the zero stop is at the bottom using the inner knob? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2020 6:39:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: So how much up elevation do you have after zeroing? Also something doesn’t sound right with your corrections. First, use the reticle to tell you how far you need to move. The reticle has marks on it that correlate to mils. Second, 26 mils is not 4.5”. 26mils is about 46”. Did you mean 2.6 mils? And .4 mils up? Also did you zero it so the zero stop is at the bottom using the inner knob? Sorry I was thinking clicks while writing milrad. You are correct, it was 2.6 mils and 0.4 mils. I entered the wrong number for my 'up' yesterday. I was at about 12 milrad. Now at 12.4. I didn't realize the reticle provided the necessary corrections. I used graph paper for target and converted the distances to milrad. Is that not an acceptable way? Lastly I have not set my zero yet. I am planning on taking a friend of mine who is better at long range, with me next week to a 1k range. My plan is to have him shoot at 100-200 yards and help with zero before I set anything. Some of my groups today were not all that great (1'' at 50 yards) and I have come to the conclusion that I lack proper technique, and have low confidence in any corrections based on my shooting. |
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Posted: 5/15/2020 6:53:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Browny00: Sorry I was thinking clicks while writing milrad. You are correct, it was 2.6 mils and 0.4 mils. I entered the wrong number for my 'up' yesterday. I was at about 12 milrad. Now at 12.4. I didn't realize the reticle provided the necessary corrections. I used graph paper for target and converted the distances to milrad. Is that not an acceptable way? Lastly I have not set my zero yet. I am planning on taking a friend of mine who is better at long range, with me next week to a 1k range. My plan is to have him shoot at 100-200 yards and help with zero before I set anything. Some of my groups today were not all that great (1'' at 50 yards) and I have come to the conclusion that I lack proper technique, and have low confidence in any corrections based on my shooting. Not a bad amount of up. That will let you reach out. Yes the reticle is like a ruler and in the same graduations as you will be dialing, which is mils. No need to go from mils to inches to get back to mils. Think of the reticle as a ruler and you will be much happier and life easier. Go watch the video on how to zero that scope. It’s not just turning the outer knob. Will make it easier when you go to zero. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/15/2020 8:35:05 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Not a bad amount of up. That will let you reach out. Yes the reticle is like a ruler and in the same graduations as you will be dialing, which is mils. No need to go from mils to inches to get back to mils. Think of the reticle as a ruler and you will be much happier and life easier. Go watch the video on how to zero that scope. It’s not just turning the outer knob. Will make it easier when you go to zero. Thanks that does make life a lot easier. Also those ruled targets are expensive! I will take a look at the video, but first I need to get someone who knows how to shoot properly to verify or fix my corrections. I could clearly tell that I was throwing shots off as soon as the trigger broke on some instances. I was having a hard time staying on target with the sandbags. May be it's time to invest in a bipod. |
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Posted: 5/15/2020 10:22:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Browny00: I was having a hard time staying on target with the sandbags. May be it's time to invest in a bipod. A bipod may not help much. If you want to learn how to self improve buy some dummy cartridges and shoot some 5 round groups with 10 dummies randomly interspersed in the mag so you might get a live round or a dummy or two. It'll show you your errors so you can self correct. These plastic ones at Brownells are $10 for 10 (I bought a 50 pack for $26 since I use them when teaching at Appleseeds). I like the bright orange because they're easy to find on the ground. They'll eventually get torn up but are worth it.  If you do an Appleseed (it'll be a great place to start) buy a cotton M1 GI sling (not the nylon M14 version) to learn the basics of sling stabilization. You can use a 2 point like the Vickers but not everyone in the Appleseed program is as familiar with them and try to get folks to use them like a traditional shooting sling which doesn't work very well. You can install QD sling studs on the sling to pop it on and off the rifle. Put a QD sling socket at the 6 o'clock position of your handguard as far forward as you can and you'll be well equipped to get the most from an Appleseed. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/18/2020 9:45:59 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lomshek: A bipod may not help much. If you want to learn how to self improve buy some dummy cartridges and shoot some 5 round groups with 10 dummies randomly interspersed in the mag so you might get a live round or a dummy or two. It'll show you your errors so you can self correct. These plastic ones at Brownells are $10 for 10 (I bought a 50 pack for $26 since I use them when teaching at Appleseeds). I like the bright orange because they're easy to find on the ground. They'll eventually get torn up but are worth it. https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/skus/l_729-000-045_2.jpg If you do an Appleseed (it'll be a great place to start) buy a cotton M1 GI sling (not the nylon M14 version) to learn the basics of sling stabilization. You can use a 2 point like the Vickers but not everyone in the Appleseed program is as familiar with them and try to get folks to use them like a traditional shooting sling which doesn't work very well. You can install QD sling studs on the sling to pop it on and off the rifle. Put a QD sling socket at the 6 o'clock position of your handguard as far forward as you can and you'll be well equipped to get the most from an Appleseed. Thanks for the advice. I've found a place close by that offers Appleseed. Looking forward to it soon. |
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