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Posted: 1/31/2016 12:21:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jnikolejc]
Just curious what people would consider a good hit percentage at 1000 yards to say that a rifle is "effective"  at that distance.
The reason I ask is I recently attempted shooting at 1000y, and my hit percent seems to average around 40% on a 12" round plate.  I have no idea if this is good or bad.  
Here's some video of my recent shooting session for your critique:
https://youtu.be/M93UflUin4c



Edit:



I'm thinking more in practical terms, not competition, and let's say the target is a USPSA, or 1.8 x 3.0 MOA @1000Y.
 
Link Posted: 1/31/2016 12:38:06 PM EDT
[#1]
The X-ring on a military or NRA 1,000-yard Long Range target covers 10 inches, or slightly under a minute of angle.  

The 10-ring is 20-inches wide, or 2 MOA.

The 9-ring is 30 inches across, or 3 MOA.

The NRA has a classification breakdown for both scopes and iron sights that generally average (with a sling, not bags and bipod, and typically two sighter shots):

Sharpshooter score an average of 84 to 88.99
Expert 89 to 93.99
Master 94 to 96.99
High Master 97 and above.

Link Posted: 1/31/2016 1:09:49 PM EDT
[#2]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sinister:


The X-ring on a military or NRA 1,000-yard Long Range target covers 10 inches, or slightly under a minute of angle.  



The 10-ring is 20-inches wide, or 2 MOA.



The 9-ring is 30 inches across, or 3 MOA.



The NRA has a classification breakdown for both scopes and iron sights that generally average (with a sling, not bags and bipod, and typically two sighter shots):



Sharpshooter score an average of 84 to 88.99

Expert 89 to 93.99

Master 94 to 96.99

High Master 97 and above.



View Quote
Well, I guess considering my target size is only two inches wider than the X-ring, 40% seems pretty decent to me.  



But I'm not sure that answers my question.  I'm thinking more in practical terms,  not competition/paper punching.  Example given is the Army manuals state that the max effective range of an M16 being 550M on a point target. In the real world, what would that equate to in terms of hits/misses at that distance, only let's apply it to a longer range, in this case, 1000y. Lets also say the target size is a E-type silhouette, or USPSA target, which would be approx 2MOA wide, and 3MOA tall at 1000Y



 
Link Posted: 1/31/2016 1:43:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sinister] [#3]
The 10-ring is 20-inches wide, or 2 MOA.

The 9-ring is 30 inches across, or 3 MOA.
View Quote


Not much difference.

The height of an IPSC or E-type is generous for range errors, width for wind.

A Sharpshooter score ain't bad, a High Master should get a "Great job -- here's a beer."

Army Sniper School generally requires 70% hits (against time standards).  So keep it in the 9-ring.

Link Posted: 2/1/2016 12:09:01 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jnikolejc:
But I'm not sure that answers my question.  I'm thinking more in practical terms,  not competition/paper punching.  Example given is the Army manuals state that the max effective range of an M16 being 550M on a point target. In the real world, what would that equate to in terms of hits/misses at that distance, only let's apply it to a longer range, in this case, 1000y. Lets also say the target size is a E-type silhouette, or USPSA target, which would be approx 2MOA wide, and 3MOA tall at 1000Y
 
View Quote


"The" answer to your question...won't really answer your question:  MEF is defined as the maximum range at which a weapon system can achieve desired target effect 50% of the time.

So the answer is 50%; the question that begs to be asked is what is the definition of desired target effect?"

Link Posted: 2/1/2016 5:48:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Are you sure you're not conflating the meaning of capable with the meaning of effective? The rifle and shooter should ideally be able to hit their target every single time if they're going to shoot at it but that's no fun so outside of lethal use cases and not realistic within lethal use cases. I'd say you want the rifle capable of hitting the target not much less than 75% of the time just to keep things interesting and fun without being too easy or too hard. I try to shoot at targets that are around 1MOA.

The man above is right though. There's no there there. There's no answer to your question without more clearly defined goals and limits.
Link Posted: 2/2/2016 11:23:59 AM EDT
[#6]

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Originally Posted By KILLERB6:

the question that begs to be asked is what is the definition of desired target effect?



View Quote
Target effect for the purposes of my question would be for the projectile to have reasonable casualty producing capabilities at the required range, so I'd say even with 50% hits, that would rule out something like a 5.56. 7.62 should be more than capable, so since that is the caliber I'm shooting, it really just boils down to hit percent on a humanoid silhouette sized target.



 
Link Posted: 2/2/2016 10:33:05 PM EDT
[#7]
If it shoots back then your 40% will consider you dead. If it doesnt shoot back, then you need some practice, unofficial of course.
Link Posted: 2/4/2016 12:20:51 AM EDT
[#8]
Based on more research into how the military defines Maximum Effective
Range (MEF) I think I am about 90% of the way to figuring this out.  






So I'll refine my question to use similar parameters that I believe the U.S Army uses.  
Let's use the example of a target size of 18", or 1.8 MOA @ 1000y.  The
probability of a hit must be at or above 50%.  The projectile must
retain sufficient energy to produce 500 ft lbs of energy, or in other
words, remain lethal.  The inherent accuracy of the rifle in MOA will be
multiplied by a factor of 2 to account for shooter error/environmental
effects.  The military sources list the MEF of a M24/M110 at 800M or
874Y.  They also list the capabilities of the rifles in the example at
1MOA.  Using these parameters, we should see where the Army calculates
the MEF of a 7.62 x 51 / 308.  Using this information, a 1MOA capable
rifle should have a 100% probability of hit on a target 18" at a range
of 925Y, or a little over 800M.  A 50% probability of hit doesn't occur
until well after the 500ft lb requirement is no longer met, which occurs
at 1000-1400 yards dependent on B.C. and altitude.  Obviously,
something is still missing that is limiting the published MEF.
I will venture a guess.... It's bullet time of flight, and the fact that
the military assumes a real target won't always be standing still, and
can move unpredictably after trigger pull.  It takes nearly 1.5 seconds
for a 175g SMK bullet to reach 800M.  Your target might not be where you
think it should when your bullet arrives.
 
 
 
Link Posted: 2/12/2016 3:16:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 3/28/2016 10:57:53 AM EDT
[#10]
If you're an  fairly good wind reader you may expect 45% hits on a100% IPSC with a 175smk at 1k.

If 80% is the threshold then 750yds is about the max range.
Link Posted: 3/28/2016 11:07:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh] [#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ReconB4:
I need to take a look again, but hit probability at 800 meters is listed at 60% as per the Army with the M24. Also, just some FYI, that 800 meter max effective range is ammo and shooter dependent.
View Quote



Yes, according to my WEZ analysis 800 meters shows 61% hit probability.

Replace that 175smk with a 230otm at 2800fps like from a 300wm and you would be 90% at 800m and 75% at 914m(1k yds)
Link Posted: 4/28/2016 4:14:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Current F-Class records are 10 shots in just over a 3" group at 1000 yards. In other words .3 moa at 1000. F-Class targets are 1/2 the size of NRA high power targets at 1000 yards and are a medium blue which makes no sense to me.

Purpose built rifles using top quality ammo are capable of incredible accuracy. .308 and .223 compete in a separate class and are handicapped compared to the open division. People do shoot very well with .308 provided they have top notch rifles and ammo.

It should be noted that NRA highpower used to require that 2/3rds of the shots fired at 1000 yards be done with iron sights. The last 1/3 allowed any rifle/any sights. Palma matches require irons as well.
Link Posted: 4/29/2016 12:35:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Easier to see the reticle on a blue target? I think that's why dryflash3 suggests it.
Link Posted: 5/6/2016 12:38:18 PM EDT
[#14]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By borderpatrol:


Current F-Class records are 10 shots in just over a 3" group at 1000 yards. In other words .3 moa at 1000. F-Class targets are 1/2 the size of NRA high power targets at 1000 yards and are a medium blue which makes no sense to me.



Purpose built rifles using top quality ammo are capable of incredible accuracy. .308 and .223 compete in a separate class and are handicapped compared to the open division. People do shoot very well with .308 provided they have top notch rifles and ammo.



It should be noted that NRA highpower used to require that 2/3rds of the shots fired at 1000 yards be done with iron sights. The last 1/3 allowed any rifle/any sights. Palma matches require irons as well.
View Quote
Agreed, on all points.



Many nice F-Class rifles are shooting 4" groups at 1,000. I have one. If it were not for wind, I think the X-ring would have to be made even smaller.
 
Link Posted: 8/27/2016 8:37:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
Agreed, on all points.

Many nice F-Class rifles are shooting 4" groups at 1,000. I have one. If it were not for wind, I think the X-ring would have to be made even smaller.




 
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
Originally Posted By borderpatrol:
Current F-Class records are 10 shots in just over a 3" group at 1000 yards. In other words .3 moa at 1000. F-Class targets are 1/2 the size of NRA high power targets at 1000 yards and are a medium blue which makes no sense to me.

Purpose built rifles using top quality ammo are capable of incredible accuracy. .308 and .223 compete in a separate class and are handicapped compared to the open division. People do shoot very well with .308 provided they have top notch rifles and ammo.

It should be noted that NRA highpower used to require that 2/3rds of the shots fired at 1000 yards be done with iron sights. The last 1/3 allowed any rifle/any sights. Palma matches require irons as well.
Agreed, on all points.

Many nice F-Class rifles are shooting 4" groups at 1,000. I have one. If it were not for wind, I think the X-ring would have to be made even smaller.




 

.
The current F-Class  X ring at 1000yds is 5 inches.  I think it is  small enough.
Link Posted: 8/29/2016 11:16:31 PM EDT
[#16]
Considering that you are shooting a gas gun, 40% with wind seems perfectly serviceable to me.

Link Posted: 7/15/2023 10:14:50 AM EDT
[#17]
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