It’s an honest question I have. And I’m wondering what people have to say.

Precision is A bunch of shots with one hole.

Accuracy is getting shot placement where you want it to be.

"Bug holes" at 200 yards would do it for me.

At what ranges?

That’s all I ask for too!

I say a precision rifle is a rifle that can consistently shoot sub moa groups.

IMHO 1/2 MOA.

My latest rifle is a Tikka CTR in 308. I'd call it accurate. Consistently under 1MOA.

But I have 6mmBR that is consistently under 1/2 MOA. (It's not a BR rifle, just a re-barreled Rem 700) I consider it precision.

1 MOA is nice, 1/2 is something to work for.

I guess we all have our expectations.

my definition is 1 MOA or better all day everyday. some may scoff at that and say 1/2 MOA yada yada. well those are cherry picked results for most (don't get me wrong there are sub 1/2moa shooters and guns out there) but for the masses I feel the above is the benchmark.

This and having a constant point of impact that doesn't wonder around the target. I have seen rifles do under an moa and still change the poi by 2-3 inches. Therefore you have to include precise point of impact to point of aim.

I concur.

Bingo...sparkyD nailed it.

Also, I have seen and shot with a lot of folks who claim to shoot sub-MOA but when you are with them in person the groups they turn out are often NOT.  There are two types of folks...some say they and their gun are sub-MOA and mean that they consistently/always can shoot sub-MOA (this is way more rare than claims on the internet would have you believe)...and the rest of the people out there claim to be sub-MOA and really they just mean that they've shot sub-MOA groups before with a particular rifle.  A lot of these folks in the second group also consider a group of 3 shots sufficient for the claim.

I would say its a rifle set up for that purpose. Its primarily a bench rest rifle, typically with a heavier barrel, decent scope, and light trigger.

Well that's akin to lowering pt quals to make women into rangers.  Might as well make it 1.5moa is precision, that way everyone has a precision rifle, lol.  Precision rifle is sub 1/2moa, on ave with no cherry picking, at distance.  Take out wind equation and use good loads with single digit sd, and a rifle that shoots .5moa at 100 should maintain that level out to effective range.  Ive got a couple, aiae in 6.5creed, a 243ai remage, and a 6br (non br configured) rifles.  I've got several others that will shoot small groups too, but not with the consistency of those 3 rifles.  At the end of day I strive for precision, AND accuracy.  A gun that will shoot in the .1s, but not maintain day to day zero, is worthless to me since I don't do 100&200br anymore.  I've had a couple of those, scary accurate but would shift zero from week to week.  Not a big deal since it was a paper gun, but having to verify and reverify zero before matches was a pain.

so I take it your one of the top shooters in the "1 MOA all day long" challenge?

Since this is on the semi auto forum I'll address this from a semi auto perspective as I don't feel it's appropriate to generalize semi auto and bolt gun accuracy the same. Gas guns are more difficult to shoot accurately than bolt guns and they are harder to make accurate.

As far as accuracy by 100 yard group size, I consider any AR15 or AR10 platform that will consistently group 3/4" (with no shooter error) for a minimum of 5 shots with quality match ammo or hand loads to be precise. 1/2 minute rifles exist but they're much less common and you're looking at a custom grade cut rifled barrel to build a rifle capable of consistently doing it.

The POI must be repeatable with no shift.

As far as the rifle features, it needs to have a quality free floating rail ideally 12-15" long capable of accepting a bipod and have multiple sling attachment points and remain rigid regardless of what means is used for supporting the rifle. It must also have a trigger with a clean consistent break ideally in the 2-4lbs range if it's a field rifle. The rifle must also have an appropriate grip for the individual shooters hand that affords a repeatable index for hand and finger positioning. My last requirement is a buttstock that is solid with no slop on the buffer tube as well as having a consistent and comfortable cheek weld.

The rifle needs an optic that will reliably hold and return to zero as well as having an exposed elevation knob that will accurately track through it's adjustment range. The optic needs to have enough internal travel to take the rifles round at least tp the end of its supersonic flight. Matched turret and reticle values as well as a FFP reticle that can be used through the entire magnification range is preferred. Since most semi auto precision rifle applications are DMR type roles a tree type reticle capable of quickly and accurately holding both elevation and wind within 1moa accuracy is a huge benefit as well.

These are my basics for a precision gas gun. Individual user requirements can vary features further.

Well said, thank you!

Boy I just love it when the perfect crowd chimes in with their rifles that shootin half moa or better across a high to low temperature range and gusty winds from zero to 30mph. Not to mention perfect zero.

Man I sure hope I find one of them there unicorn rifle gun's!  

Okay carry on.

1/2 minute guns do exist, I've even seen some off the shelf rifles that would to it. I had a Rock River varmint years ago that was Benchrest accurate. I had a KAC LPR that was a half minute gun. I had a MK12ish upper built by GAP that was 1/2 minute. I had a cheap Ballistic Advantage SPR barrel and still have a Black Hole Weaponry barrel the are both sub 1/2 minute with my 77gr Berger loads. My Craddock Precision 224 Valkyrie is well under half minute.

If your groups change with the temperature one of two things are happening. You either had a bad day at the range and are blaming it on the temp, or you chose the wrong powder to load with. Velocity may change some even with the "temp stable" powders but accuracy should not.

The wind blowing the bullet around at distance does not mean the gun is less accurate, it means the wind changed the path of the bullet and the shooter didn't accurately compensate for it.

There are 1/2 minute AR's, they aren't unicorns. I'm not talking about a rifle that you have shot 50 groups with and one miraculously went 1/2 minute or better, but rifles that will shoot 1/2 minute when the shooter does. A good shooter knows when he broke a shot poorly before he even sees the POI on target, if that shooter fires 10 groups and half of them are 1/2 minute, guess what? That indicates it's a 1/2 minute gun with a shooter that can consistently shoot 1/2 minute half of the time.

Shooter error does not make the rifle itself less accurate. By that same logic, if a shooter can only shoot a 6moa group standing unsupported then it would only 6 minute gun. That's not how it works. There's a rifles accuracy and then there's the shooters accuracy/ability, period.

Good log books have proven that even half moa gun's struggle from 0 degrees to 100 degrees. Gun's have bad days just the same as a good shooter can.  That's why it's better to air on the humble side. But I've seen many a bragged up rifle make a donkey out of it's owner. Not to mention the ammo sometimes changes a bit with age and temperature.

A precision rifle, to me, is a sub moa rifle. A rifle/load combo that will consistently yield sub moa or better with little to no shift in poi. Most of my rifles are below that, and closer to sub .6moa rifles, but I don’t scoff at a 1 moa rifle being called a precision rifle.

Even in most “precision” rifle competitions, there’s not a lot of difference in your hit probability at distance if going from a .5moa rifle to a 1 moa rifle if the load doesn’t have wild velocity spreads. If you can’t read the wind, you’re probably missing with either rifle. F class and BR type disciplines are a bit different since you’re going for the smallest group possible. There, you want the tightest shooting rifle you can get, but you still need to be able to read the wind.

The looks and accessories don’t matter, as they can be added/changed based on the intended use.

Since it’s been mentioned, the MOA challenge isn’t just about sub moa rifles, but requires sub moa shooters since the rear bags are restricted (I think there’s an Open class for that). I know lots of guys that can post impressive groups with benchrest “V” style bags, but the groups really open up when they use a squeeze bag.

Sub-MOA plus repeatability

Log books as in data input by a shooter after a shooters performance? Yeah they'd never lie and blame their bad shooting on a gun. You realize how hot a chamber can get in a string right? You can let a round cook and accuracy isn't going to open up but you are likely to have enough of a change in velocity to show up in a difference of trajectory at distance from an increase in velocity when using more temperature sensitive powders, you'd never see it at 100 yards though or even 200.

I also don't agree with the ammo statement, I've shot 40-50 year old M118 that still shot little knots. A good shooter that can consistently or somewhat consistently shoot great doesn't take years to shoot through a case of ammo anyway, they also typically load their own and shoot it as they load it.

Regardless, a change in ammo consistency is not a change in the rifles consistency, thats no different than saying a rifle is a X moa gun because that's all it's shooter can muster. If you were going to make even a somewhat valid and accurate argument for a variable you would have mentioned ammo lot to lot consistency because it can and does vary and it can make a rifle not like one lot vs the other. This is actually common unlike your temperature or age comment, but it still doesn't mean the gun is only an X moa gun because you're feeding it ammo it doesn't like.

Where ammo consistency will show up is in the cold bore shot. But a lot of people throw out the cold bore shot to keep their half moa. Yet that's the most important round down the barrel. Some adjust for it after keeping good data. But that's cheating the rifle by the sub moa shooter. If you hand the rifle to another shooter without the dope to adjust the poa. The rifle doesn't perform as well in their  hands. I still stand by the under MOA most of the time. Not 50% of the time.

The whole cold bore shot thing was debunked a long time ago. A properly stress relieve barrel has no shift from the barrel heating up, the only thing heat can do is is expand the material which takes a lot of rounds before accuracy is effected by it.

In a good barrel a thrown first shot is almost always caused by a cold shooter. The only other thing that can change where the first shot or shots go is from somebody who cleans a barrel after every range session and excepts a clean barrel to shoot the same as a fouled one. This usually takes 3-10 shots to settle in depending on the individual barrel and how much fouling was removed or disturbed. Not doing anything to a barrel and letting the rifle sit for a long period of time before shooting again can also throw a shot or two pushing the loose powder out of the bore that has hardened or built a film of corrosion. Ever looked down a barrel of a rifle that was shot and set for a while and it was blue? That and the powder debris that was left and doing the same thing has a very good chance of change where the first shot goes from having to push all that crap out. If I know a rifle is going to sit for more than a couple weeks without being shot and it's not time for a thorough cleaning yet then I pull a bore snake through the barrel once after shooting or I'll push a couple dry patches through to knock out the loose stuff. Then I pull a bore snake through again just before I shoot it and the first shot is never off unless I'm off.

Just like shooter error, and negligence in ammo selection, you can't blame improper maintenance on the rifle either. A gun doesn't shoot itself, load itself, or clean itself so any accuracy error due to any of these circumstances goes on the shooter.

And here we see illustrated the difference between an accurate rifle and a consistent one.
They are not the same thing.

An accurate rifle hits your point of aim.
A consistent rifle ALWAYS hits your point of aim.

I'm going to try the dry patch next outing my RPR has been consistently quarter left and Half moa high on CB. I kinda wonder if the Humidity here is also a factor. But it's consistent enough I can dope for it.

A precision rifle is a rifle that shoots consistently with a cold bore.all  the advice above is bound to vary .but if you can shoot 50 cold bore shots plot the hits & have 1 moa I'd consider that precision.

if this practice is "debunked please link a source "

thank you.

accuracy is closeness to a desired value.
precision is repeatability/reproducability.

There’s plenty of articles on snipershide and accurate shooter regarding the cold bore myth. Do a little leg work yourself.

Here’s a good thread going on right now on the hide regarding 1/2 minute AR’s. Seems to be plenty there.

https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/wanting-to-build-a-5-moa-gas-gun.6888158/#post-7075981

From a few months back.... testing zero shift without my suppressor.

I definitely see a shift with a clean cold bore, but not with a cold bore shot from a barrel that is fouled.

Blasphemy! Your cold bore must have missed the target backer entirely.

I'm gonna go against the grain here, and say defining a precision rifle has nothing to do with the group size. That stupid 1 MOA all day challenge.

I'm my minds a numerous other peoples eyes I have worked with or talk to seems to agree as follows:

A precision rifle or weapons platform, is capable of providing precise and accurate fires on a given target set at any given reasonable distance of engagement.

Examples:

DMR on point targets up to and past the Rifle platoons effective engagement distance.

M240 on tripod with T&E capable of providing precise and accurate sustained automatic fires on point targets with the effective engagement distance of the weapon system  to suppress or eliminate the threat.

Sniper Rifles on point targets to eliminate or area targets to suppress within the weapon systems and calibers effective range.

50 Cal or anti-material rifles the ability to provide accurate and well aimed fires IOT Eliminate or disable small light skinned vehicles and or emplaced weapon systems, Also able to engage dismounted personnel behind light to medium cover and concealment

M2 50 cal Machine gun on tripod or vehicle mount with T&E or on a CROW system. Same as 50 Cal or anti-material rifles but providing automatic fires.

These all can be considered precision weapon systems while most probably will never shoot a SUB MOA group.

Scott

Are we talking accurately precise or precisely accurate here?

Wow! This thread is still a live, cool!