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Posted: 6/17/2019 3:45:40 PM EDT
Good evening.

I've been working on a 308 load around Hornadys 178 BTHPs.
During load development and up to 100 meters everything seems ok, low SD & ES numbers and more than decent groups around 0.7 MOA.
Which I consider enough for my intendet purpose, that is to take the rifle out to 1000 yards on steel, no competition, just fun.

However I've never got any comparable results at 300 meters.
Groups open up, and even SD and ES seem inconsistent.

Now, before anybody says, it's either sloppy marksmanship or reloading technique or both, I got to add:
I thought of that before you did, but then, with a similar meticulous or sloppy assembled round for the 168 SMK I can achieve repeatedly the same result I am expecting.
Again and again on the very same range session I fail with the 178s.

So I triedd to re-confirm the node at 43.7 grains of N140 (at 100 meters) and got contradictory results:

best SD / ES was 0.2 gr lower at 43.5 gr
best group was 0.1 higher and lower at 43.6 and 43.8 gr
least shift of POI from POA (according to the OCW method) was at 43.7 gr
MV plateau was at 43.7 gr

What would you recommend, which result should I trust? Or which step should I try?
Thanks for input in advance.
Link Posted: 6/17/2019 5:12:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Are your groups strung vertically?  Barrel quality issue? (I am not in a math mood right now)
Link Posted: 6/17/2019 6:09:42 PM EDT
[#2]
No vertical stringing.
Barrel is ok, like I mentioned, it works just perfect with the 168ies.
Link Posted: 6/17/2019 6:42:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 6/17/2019 6:48:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: borderpatrol] [#4]
Your load sounds hot to me, really hot.

Do you have a chronograph? Barrel length and fps will help us.

.308 brass varies widely between manufacturers. You can't mix brass and expect good results. Lake City, IMI and other military surplus brass requires dramatically reduced powder charges. -2.0 grains of powder is considered standard when using military surplus brass.
Link Posted: 6/17/2019 6:56:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AeroE] [#5]
Link Posted: 6/17/2019 8:37:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGH456E] [#6]
Well...... I can understand your groups opening up at 300m vs 100m.
What doesn’t make sense is your ES changing.  
With that in mind, it’s not you, or the wind.  
I would check your load and technique there......the ES/SD should not change over distance.

PS.....now I do see slight differences in shooting the same load over time.  What I mean is say I load up 50rds and shoot 10rds and then later shoot another 10rds.  I might see some slight differences in both but the accuracy and low ES remains.
Link Posted: 6/17/2019 10:31:34 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 6/18/2019 3:09:45 AM EDT
[#8]
As for the SD / ES: during load dev I got something around 9 / 15 plus minus, measured in two or three different sessions.
With everything else being the same now I'm getting 15 / 30, also measured twice. The change has nothing to do with distance, of course.
Avg. MV is +/- 2550 fps out of a 20" R700 SPS.

I have not seen any signs of pressure with 43.7 gr of N140 inside of Remington brass, all same lot. First signs showed up at 44.2 during my first trial.

I understand the load isn't tuned yet, that's what I'm here for.
I don't understand, how it got so much out of tune.
Wind: I tried it indoors at 300 m, no wind.
Temperature, not sure. Need to look up in my book.

@aeroE
Please, could you explain this more detailed. Or do you happen to have a graphic illustration?

"A plot of vertical dispersion with charge weight should look similar to a sine wave.
Low charges along the trough cause relatively small changes in group size or dispersion, then as the charges increase, one charge produces good results, but a grain difference either side opens up, and then at or near the maximum charge a peak forms where accurate loads live across a couple of grains difference in charge weights.

A little short knee between the peak and the valley will work if it's sufficiently wide, but it's most likely not.
"
Link Posted: 6/18/2019 11:49:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AeroE] [#9]
Link Posted: 8/25/2019 3:48:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: borderpatrol] [#10]
Your rifle may not like Hornady's 178. Try Sierra's 175's too.

I've been using Vihtavuori N150 in .308 and have been pleased with the results.

If you want the highest possible velocities try Winchester brand commercial .308 brass. It has more internal volume which allows for a little more powder before reaching peak pressure.

Lapua brass is another good choice.

I consider .308 at it's limit at 1000 yards. Most competitive rifles in that caliber are using 30" barrels. They are driving 155 grain match bullets around 2950 fps +/-. A shorter barrel simply can't drive a .308 bullet that fast.

At least 150 fps is gained going from a 24" to a 30" barrel. You lose another 100 fps going from a 24" to a 20". That 30" barrel gets a 250 fps advantage over a 20" without having to increase the powder charge.

I would develop the most accurate, safe and reliable load I could from a 20" barrel and not even consider it for 1000 yard use. It will work great for anything inside 700 yards, maybe a little more.

This is the trade off for having a handy firearm that's easier to carry in the field.
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