I’ve noticed that I can manage shouldering rifles standing, kneeling, etc., pretty well, but something I’m doing when I put that rifle on a rest somehow doesn’t work right.  Primarily, I’ve noticed that I manage to make my shoulder hurt, even though it seems like I’m getting the butt in the same place I put it when standing.

So I figure I’m sitting wrong when I use a bench and any kind of rest.  I’m a big guy, 6’2” tall with long arms, and I seem to crouch down to meet the rifle whenever I settle at a bench.

I’d appreciate any guidance on what my posture should be, where my elbows should be, and basically how my body should align with the rifle, the rest, and the target.  And should I be using a taller rest, different bags, or what?

Thanks!

Not tucking into your shoulder hard enough, maybe.

I make sure my hips are square to the rifle/target, pretty much the same with my shoulders, I keep my off hand under the stock on a bag, and I actually am very light on loading the rifle..even on my 300rum, I am barely touching the rifle...

I get it as hard into my shoulder as I can.  But I think the butt is contacting something other than the muscles it's supposed to.  Last time I fired a short .308 I had a substantial bruise all around the "pocket" in my shoulder, and maybe higher than the pocket "feels."

I assume HP bladed standing? Where does the toe go in your shoulder - above, in, or below the pocket?

Sounds like your bench isn’t tall enough try bagging your rifle up higher. You might have an aggravated nerve that’s not liking your elbow contacting the bench.

Quick and dirty solution >>> LINK

Adds about 1" to your LOP but shouldn't be a big problem for a tall fellow like yourself.  This is a non-permanent (slip on) solution so if you don't like it or need to change  back and forth (for different shooters), you can do it quickly and easily.

I got one of these to add to my LOP on a rifle that was a bit short.  Was (pleasantly) surprised at how much cushioning it gave even though I didn't buy it for that reason.

In terms of the problem, my only guess is that your position/angulation is causing the butt of the stock to rest on your clavicle more so than in other positions.  This would cause more discomfort especially with repeated firing like a day at the range would entail.

P.S.: What caliber / action?

Not so much bladed as closer to "athletic," with both shoulders pretty much perpendicular to the line of fire.  Believe it or not, this was how I was taught to line up way back when, in my first M16 training course in the Air Force.

The toe of the stock is in the pocket, anatomically over the lower part of pectoralis major.  Over a rest, I think the heel winds up higher than in a standing position.

That makes sense.  Bench heights have always seemed a little low for me anyway.  I try to have some sort of padding for my elbows, but I wind up with the inside of the elbow in contact with the bench, not the point of the elbow...  More evidence that I need a taller rest and/or bench.

Longer pull might just help.  But I also think that I have to work on raising the rifle to fit me, instead of crouching down to fit the bench.  I agree that the heel of the stock often sits too high, usually over the distal part of the clavicle.  I get bruising at the inside of the deltoid and over the pectoralis minor, higher than the pocket.  On the other hand, I've only had a bit of redness after a LOT of shooting .308 or .30-06 standing, and that's been lower, more centered on the pocket.

I've had problems on a bench with anything from .308 down to .223, while my Garand is "potent" but quite manageable in standing.    I've had this issue with both bolt rifles and autoloaders.

Just out of curiosity, how does shooting prone work for you? (also, expand quote to see blue reply)

A lot of people giving bad advice without knowing a thing about how energy transfer works with the human body. A couple people giving good advice. Typical arfcom.

Sitting straight up is going to accentuate how hard the thing kicks you. Tall guys get the shit end of the stick on the bench since you usually can't lower your chair. If the bottom of your rib cage is much above the bench surface, you should lower chair your a bit, that'll help. Using the principles below will help more. The same principles apply at the bench as in the prone position. Get low, get square, load-in.

Get as low as you can and stay square to the gun, don't blade your body off to the bench. Pretend you're going prone, get low, get square directly behind the rifle and you'll have a better bench shooting experience. Keep your muscles in as close to a natural state of non-tension as possible and your skeleton in as close to the configuration it would be if you were hanging from the neck or laying flat on your stomach or back with the exception that in concession to the fact that you're sitting, you want your shoulders as far over your knees as possible; in front of them if you can do that.

Shooting from the bench is the best way to experience the recoil potential of your rifle as the shooter pins their ass to a chair, sits straight up, blades off their upper body and then takes a punch in the shoulder with all of the muscles and joints that might absorb the shock already fully or nearly fully extended. If it gets truly uncomfortable to where you're developing a flinch then just get a Lead Sled from Caldwell and load it up with weight. There's nothing sissy about not getting beaten to death.

I have only limited experience with prone, and the range I use most doesn’t allow it - they say the target hangers don’t go low enough, and shooting from prone would lead to too much of an upward angle.

With that said, I think one problem I’ve had is the %@$^& seats provided at the benches at this range.  The seats are too high for me with that bench height, or the benches are too low for the seats.  I’ve spent my life accommodating the size of furniture everywhere, without any real problems.  But this is a real problem that I need to do something about.

I also believe that I don’t have the right idea of how to position the rifle and my body on a bench.  Where should the rifle be in relation to the “cut out” of the bench?  Where should my right elbow be?  I think I’m probably both overly crouching - which puts the rifle stock too far up on my shoulder - and putting my body at an inappropriate angle, which puts the stock on the wrong part of the shoulder.

Bench shooting done well is extremely similar to prone shooting in form. The differences are minor and the philosophy is the same, inline, flat, forward, square, load-in. You should NOT use a bipod on the bench. I recommend removing it and putting the fore end on bags. Heavy sand bags seem to work best for this.

Slightly bias the rifle to the side of your dominant hand, SLIGHTLY. Face forward as square as possible to the rifle and lean over the bench. Leaning over the bench is critical since this is how you simulate loading the bipod which is partially how you'll control recoil.

Little Tips:
You want your upper back flat. If your elbows are too far forward your back will bow downward. If they're too far back you'll have a valley between your shoulder blades.
Be as square to the rifle, bench and target as you can (meaning if you were to stand up without turning you'd be directly facing all 3).
Lean forward, far. Further is better because further forward leaning = lower to the bench.
Keep your back flat (no bending or twisting in the middle).
Bring the gun to your body, not the other way around.
Fill in the gaps (if you've got an elbow in free space put a pillow/pad under it to support it).
Keep the rifle as low to the bench as you can.

If the bench is a T shape, you're kinda screwed as that's a terrible design meant for flexibility, not usability. If it's an upside down U shape where you sit in the gap in the middle that's usable except it usually puts your off-hand elbow out in free space. I like just a plain square or rectangle with no cutouts or if anything just a little notch for old-guy-belly to slot into.

Here's some pics showing more or less correct technique at least in part. I'll note what the good/bad bits are.

The right stuff done on a T-shape bench. See how he's leaned forward, his body is down low with his nipples around the height of the bench, his chest is low over the table and pretty square to the rifle. He's not too deep in the bench. His elbows are pointed out with the off-hand elbow pushed slightly forward so as to flatten the back and get his cheek weld set to the stock. When the rifle recoils his shoulder will be pushed back, then it'll come straight forward and he'll be back on or very near his point of aim. Energy transfer will move down his back, into his butt and into the chair.  


The wrong stuff on a T-shaped bench. It's very subtly different than above but the differences are important. Look how heavily bladed he is to the rifle, he's almost directly facing the bench with his body. His head is turned nearly 90deg to his shoulders and his recoil absorbing shoulder is not in a position to absorb recoil with motion so it'll just be pain that it creates. This will hurt all over the place (head, neck, upper/middle/lower back) with a hard kicking rifle. It'll jolt the shit out of his head, punch the shoulder in a direction that could separate his shoulder and the rifle will not come to rest at his initial point of aim after recoil but instead many degrees off to the right side (since the right side is open to motion unequally to the left). The thing he's doing right is his boobies are not very high above the table if at all so he's got the "get low" bit down.


The hard stuff. Here's Craig Boddington doing really good with a massively hard kicking double rifle at the bench using the lean-forward techhnique (and a PAST shooting pad and an IRON shoulder). He's almost square to the bench, he's laid over the rifle, he's filled in the gaps in space and he's wearing a PAST pad. The unique part is his off-hand is way forward which is necessary with massive kickers, gotta keep positive control of that double rifle. When the rifle kicks his shoulder will move back and whatever energy can will move down his back into his butt and into the chair. The muzzle will climb but when all is said and done he'll come back to his point of aim or very close to it.


Only pic I could find of someone sitting too tall and too straight up. The shooter isn't doing very much right in this pic. If that rifle wasn't in a sled rest like that it would hurt ferociously to shoot a full power rifle in hunting weight from that position.


Here's me showing the right angles (you can't see the .243AI in front of me). Shoulders are flat across, head lean minimal, square to the table, leaned far forward, off-hand elbiebone slightly forward of firing elbiebone, elbows pointed outboard.


If I were at the bench with you it'd be trivial to get you sorted out. Hopefully the pics do a good enough job.

I’m a big guy like you, 6’3 with monkey arms. My bet would be that your body position has the butt right against the coracoid process. It’s okay, go google it. I had to when my Enfield was killing me.

What’s the solution?  I dunno, but I’m gonna tag this for the next time I’m out on a bench, cuz what ballisticxlr posted above sounds like a good start. By that first picture, I think I had the rifle tucked into my shoulder too high. Though I’m not sure how comfortable a cheek weld will be if I lower it any. Not as much an issue with a modern adjustable stock and scope mount options, but on a No 4 Mk 1* with irons?  We’ll see.

A light dawns...  I think I’ve been trying to be too upright, instead of “mimicking a prone position”.  I have been pondering how to get my entry level adjustable rest (a Bald Eagle triangle rest with windage adjustment) taller to fit me.  Now it looks like what I need to do is get flatter on the bench.  More cushioning, particularly for my elbows sounds like a good thing too!  I probably won’t get a chance to hit the range again until the middle of next month, but I’m certainly going to study all those pictures, good and bad, to start getting into the right position.
I can even explain where the term ‘coracoid’ comes from.  . I’m an occupational therapist, and I work on shoulders a lot.  I think you’ve zeroed in on the spot I’m hurting.

The coracoid process is a part of the scapula that projects forward and is where the pectoralis minor and the medial head of the biceps insert.  That spot is exactly where I have discomfort, and where the bruise shows up when I work over a bench.

Here’s a GIF showing the coracoid in red.  It’s an important chunk of bone.

I've done some really deep research today, and I've discovered that I've been putting the rifle butt in the wrong place in my shoulder all along.  I've had it too far outward - not over the corocoid, but definitely too much on the deltoid instead of the bulkier pectoralis major.  Not much of a problem with a 5.56 rifle, but with .30-'06 or .308 it's big.

I started figuring this out when I noticed a light bruise on my shoulder from Thursday's shooting.  It's over the medial part of anterior deltoid, and not at all on the more medial muscles like pec. minor or pec. major.

As to getting "prone like" on the bench, the above should help too.  The top of my shoulder should be OVER the heel (top) of the stock, with the toe (bottom) resting on my pec. major, lower down, and more importantly closer to my midline.

If someone will check me on this, particularly the anatomical landmarks, I'd appreciate it.

The butt should be inboard of your deltoid sufficiently to allow your cheek to contact the stock without substantially laying your head over to the side. This will cause it to clear the coracoid process. The comb of the stock should be high enough that you can get a cheek weld with the heel below your collarbone and the toe on your upper pectoralis. "The pocket" which isn't what people think it is . It's not actually a soft area. It's a hard area that can take a whippin and has a very little soft tissue on top. See the pic below. THIS WILL FEEL WEIRD UNTIL YOU GET USED TO IT. If you do get used to it you'll find that you're a better and faster shot than you were before.

Let's keep overthinking it and over analyzing it to death.

The bottom line is that it's easier to shoot when you're in a position that allows for a natural point of aim.  Yeah, I know it's all the rage with the PRS crowd to shoot from odd field expedient positions, but the reality is that people shoot better when they shoot from a position that maximizes skeletal support and minimizes muscle tension.

So how about considering an adjustable chair or stool.   One of my other hobbies is astronomy and I found that a portable observers chair works well for observing (where you need to adjust your height to comfortably let your eye match the eyepiece of the telescope) but also for shooting and for reloading, as I can adjust it to where I need it for whatever I'm doing.

Sorry, I don't have a great picture of it, but here's the top in one and the bottom in the other. It's light, portable, durable and stable.

That is a sweet setup in your SkyShed Pod. Need a pier though.

Totally agree about the natural position.

B

I’m jealous of your telescope.  I live close enough in to town that, if I’m lucky I can see major constellations.

That chair looks excellent.  I’m going to start with getting set up at the bench smarter, but a seat that fits me and puts me where I need to be will be extremely useful.

Nice to see I'm not the only back yard astronomer. I haven't done much seeing in the past few years but used to spend a lot of time stacking images of Jupiter.

Just to add one thing to what Ballisticxlr said, which was excellent; be careful that you don't start hunching your shoulder forward to match the rifle position. Get the rifle to line up where you want with your body properly positioned. I see people do this all the time. They setup the rifle, they otherwise have good form, but the rifle is too far forward so they push their shoulder forward into it rather than pulling the rifle back to them or adjusting their whole position forward. Even at 100 yards that'll show up, start shooting way out there and it gets all wacky because there's no way to do it consistently. For some reason it's most common at the bench but I see it prone sometimes too. I am someone who's prone to it if I don't force myself to review my body position each time I get in place. I can put a lot of the shooting process on automatic and be just fine, body position has to be actively monitored, sometimes for each shot with that darn shoulder creeping forward.

The more I look at this, the more I’m seeing that I have been settling the butt too low on my shoulder, whether I’m holding a .22 or a Garand.  I’ve planned some range time (no specific date yet) to just work on getting that part right.

Unfortunately I don’t have access to a rifle instructor to help me through this.  I can find at least five pistol instructors without even trying, but I’ve already gone through quite a bit on that front, since I’m left eye, right hand dominant.

What struck me recently was happening across an illustration from the cover of FM 3-22.9, the Army’s marksmanship manual.  The guy on the cover is in the classic tactical kneeling position, and the M4’s butt is against his upper chest and shoulder, much higher than I’ve been settling my rifle butt.  Why hadn’t I seen a picture like this before?

I finally got a chance to hit the range with my Garand and my Remington '03A3.  I was right: I had been tucking the stock way too low into my shoulder, actually getting it below the pocket, and bruising myself up in the process.

By paying attention to placing the toe of the stock in "the pocket," I was able to comfortably fire a lot of .30-06, full power ammunition with only the actual recoil to deal with.

I fired in standing and in a "tall kneeling" position - on one knee but without supporting my arms on anything - and it all worked well.  But when I tried the supported kneeling position, sitting on the heel of the knelt side and resting the off elbow on the other knee, I couldn't keep the toe properly positioned.  I have a lovely bruise that goes across my collar bone (technically it's about 2cm proximal from the AC joint).  I think I "crowded" the rifle and moved my shoulder too far forward, but I won't know until I get another chance to get to the range.

And I'll probably practice with something less "stout" than the .30-06 cartridge.