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Posted: 12/8/2021 2:23:26 AM EDT
I got a rifle in 308 earlier this year and am starting to reload for it, this is my first 308.  I got a quantity of federal brass that is once fired from multiple rifles.  I made a case comparator and discovered that federal brass fired in my gun measures 2.422.  All the brass not fired in my gun measured anywhere from about 2.425 up to 2.435 with my comparator.  I wound up with my sizing die bottomed out against the shell holder and the brass not from my gun all measured about 2.424 after sizing.  I sized a few cases fired in my gun that measured 2.422 and they did not change length after sizing.  

I put one and two layers of scotch tape on the base of some of the sized brass.  One layer of tape makes the 2.424 sized cases slightly drag when closing the bolt and two layers makes it difficult to close the bolt.  The tape measured 0.001 thick.  Two layers of tape on brass fired from my gun did not cause the bolt to drag.  

This gun is a rem700 5r I got as a "blemish" just before the 2nd bankruptcy.  A friend also bought one and his shoots equally well.  Mine will put a 20rd box of 168fgmm into a hole barely larger than a quarter and I'm not a very good shooter, my goal is for my reloads to shoot equally well.  

Why is the brass fired in my gun so much shorter than brass fired in other guns?  
If I want my reloads to be as accurate as possible should I remove material from the shell holder to allow the die to bump the shoulders back to 2.422, 1-2 thousandths shorter than that, or should I live with the 2.424 brass that my die produces?  
If I have 2.422 brass mixed with 2.424 brass will I be able to see the difference in ammo performance?
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 4:50:07 AM EDT
[#1]
Try a different shell holder or sand a bit off the shell holder or the die so they get tighter..Ideally it takes a few firings in the same chamber to get  brass to fully fill the chamber..Most likely your chamber is on the tighter side of SAAMI spec and some of the other brass was shot in rifles on the looser side of spec...Always have a print out of the SAAMI chamber drawings to verify your load work..
The diameter right at the case head and right at the shoulder are also both important measurements, besides just shoulder bump..
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 9:10:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Reorx] [#2]
I'm confused!...  SAAMI spec for 308 Winchester case length is 1.995" to 2.015".  OP - are you talking about a different cartridge???
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 9:34:46 AM EDT
[#3]
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:The diameter right at the case head and right at the shoulder are also both important measurements, besides just shoulder bump..
View Quote


I can't change those dimensions.  

It seems crazy that some of the brass is almost 0.01 inch too long to even chamber in my gun - that's a lot of squishing some of the brass will get.  I've never bothered measuring on other calibers I load - I just bottom the die out and never have any problems, but that has always been on brass fired in the same gun I was loading it for.  

I'm tempted to leave the die like it is since the brass fits my gun nicely and to reduce the stress on the brass, plus I like that sizing would be simple and foolproof - just bottom the die out and get the same results every time.  But since fgmm comes out of my gun slightly shorter I don't want to leave any accuracy or consistency on the table.  

I got this gun only because I wanted to be able to buy cheap factory ammo that performed well  - fgmm was $18-19 when I bought it but is now $38 locally and $32 online.  I don't want to load this ammo and am considering just paying the price for fgmm and selling the components I have.  My concern is that the large amount of sizing some of the brass needs will create inconsistency and I don't want to deal with that!
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 9:35:44 AM EDT
[#4]
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Originally Posted By Reorx:
I'm confused!...  SAAMI spec for 308 Winchester case length is 1.995" to 2.015".  OP - are you talking about a different cartridge???
View Quote


I made a comparator, my dimensions are shoulder distance plus whatever random length my comparator is.  The measurements are relative, not absolute.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 9:42:06 AM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 9:53:02 AM EDT
[#6]
Are you camming over on the press at all?


I believe you can get that extra .001 or .002 bump by advancing your die past shell holder initial contact by 1/4 or so of a turn.

Might try Redding competition shell holder set as well.

Link Posted: 12/8/2021 11:05:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: borderpatrol] [#7]
You need at least .0015" of headspace clearance for ammo used in a bolt action. My goal is .002"

Try the cam over option first. Running your single stage ram all the way up, screw the sizing die down until it touches the shell holder. Then turn it down another 1/8 turn. Use plenty of lube and run the brass into the die with enthusiasm.

Sometime mismatched brands of shell holders will introduce tolerance stacking. If you are using the same brand shell holder and dies, your last option is to remove a couple thousandths of an inch from the bottom of the die, or the top of the shell holder. The shell holder is the cheaper of the two, that means I attack it.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 4:15:26 PM EDT
[#8]
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Originally Posted By r45d:Are you camming over on the press at all?
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Originally Posted By r45d:Are you camming over on the press at all?

Yes.  

Originally Posted By Rob01:Did you put one of the other cases in your rifle to see if they fit after sizing?

Yes.  

To be explicit, factory federal once fired from my gun easily chambers in my gun before and after sizing, after sizing the shoulder distance does not change.  The federal brass I got is m118 brass (presumably from a military range) and the shoulder length is up to 0.01 longer than what will chamber in my gun.  After sizing this brass fits my gun fine but it is still 0.002 longer than brass fired in my gun.  

The result of this is that if I mix the brass together (brass fired in my gun and brass fired in other guns) I will have brass with two different shoulder lengths.  I am concerned about this causing inconsistency and I am also concerned about sizing the other-gun-fired brass further by grinding 0.002 off the shell holder and further shortening the brass life.  

Additionally, the "long" brass, after sizing, has about 0.002 headspace based on two layers of scotch tape on the case head making the bolt hard to close, so it appears that I am getting a good length by sizing.  If that is the case why should I shorten the brass even more?  

I could rephrase the question as "why is my once-fired federal brass so much shorter than my chamber?"
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 4:50:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperJlarge] [#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Morgan321:


To be explicit, factory federal once fired from my gun easily chambers in my gun before and after sizing, after sizing the shoulder distance does not change.  The federal brass I got is m118 brass (presumably from a military range) and the shoulder length is up to 0.01 longer than what will chamber in my gun.  After sizing this brass fits my gun fine but it is still 0.002 longer than brass fired in my gun.  

The result of this is that if I mix the brass together (brass fired in my gun and brass fired in other guns) I will have brass with two different shoulder lengths.  I am concerned about this causing inconsistency and I am also concerned about sizing the other-gun-fired brass further by grinding 0.002 off the shell holder and further shortening the brass life.  
View Quote


You’ll have more inconsistencies from mixing brass than that .002” variance from the sizing process most likely, especially if running the same charge.

I’d suggest just not mixing brass if you want the best groups.

The issue you’re running into is that the brass from different ammo doesn’t always size the same. Some is harder or softer from the start. Even if you anneal, the brass likely won’t size as well over time, so your “fired” in chamber brass will soon be at the same point as your m118 brass if you don’t adjust your die.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 6:30:31 PM EDT
[#10]
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Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:
You’ll have more inconsistencies from mixing brass than that .002” variance from the sizing process most likely, especially if running the same charge.
I’d suggest just not mixing brass if you want the best groups.

.....your “fired” in chamber brass will soon be at the same point as your m118 brass if you don’t adjust your die.
View Quote


I came to the same conclusion, I'm just keeping the two lots of brass separate.  Nothing I can do about having to size the "other gun brass" so much - it's either size it or don't shoot it!  

Not sure how fired brass can wind up 0.01 inch (1/100, not 1/1000) longer than the chamber it came out of!  I've never measured this before, but I've never had issues on any other caliber I load - size each time and brass is never too long(even after firing and before sizing).  I used a lee loader years ago when I first started loading and it would take many firings (3 or more) before the brass was too long to chamber.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 7:17:17 PM EDT
[#11]
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Originally Posted By Morgan321:


Not sure how fired brass can wind up 0.01 inch (1/100, not 1/1000) longer than the chamber it came out of!
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Most likely from a gas gun. It’s not uncommon to get more case stretch from gas guns due to the way the system operates.
Link Posted: 12/8/2021 10:05:27 PM EDT
[#12]
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Originally Posted By Morgan321:


Not sure how fired brass can wind up 0.01 inch (1/100, not 1/1000) longer than the chamber it came out of!
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SAAMI maximum chamber can be up to 0.013” larger than the minimum 308 cartridge size. Not common to see but within specification for a rifle and new ammunition.

SAAMI also allows up to 0.004” of oversized of the cartridge compared to the chamber in 308. That doesn’t differentiate if it is a bolt action or semi auto. So when you size to have 0.002” of clearance, you are really sizing to about the midpoint of the SAAMI range of tolerance between the chamber and cartridge.

Don’t over think it. If your die and shell holder sizes the brass so it fits the chamber with no bolt closing drag and very little head clearance, leave it alone.
Link Posted: 12/9/2021 9:48:26 AM EDT
[#13]
Maybe your federal once fired gmm brass hasn’t completely fire formed to your chamber yet.  

I would be interested to see how your measurements change from now to the 2nd and 3rd firing on both cases.  

Apples and oranges but  my 300 wm shoulder measurement changes for the first 2-3 firings.
Link Posted: 12/9/2021 3:11:57 PM EDT
[#14]
r45d is touching on the same point I will make.

It takes more than one firing on brass introduced to a chamber, to fully form to that new chamber.

To start out, take just a few samples through multiple cycles where you intentionally only size the neck and being careful to allow the brass to grown to the point where it beings to act a little tight.
You will be taking inspection data on the fired and sized cases at every point and keeping good notes.

After several cycles, the shoulder datum length, the diameter at the 0.200" line, and the diameter at the body-shoulder junction, should stabilize.
Sometimes they will even give you a tight bolt closure on the first try, other times that doesn't happen after even five or six cycles.

The values should be tracked against any additional shoulder bump setting on the sizing die.

In most examples, there will be no issues with keeping the feed reliability running while also avoiding over-working the brass.
Once in a while, the chamber-die-brass relationship isn't happy due to the diameters even when the shoulder datum is controlled.
In these examples, a different die is required to control the diameters as well as the shoulder bump.

Also...
Now is also a good time to learn how or if the rig is sensitive to case volume differences.

If your loading process and shooting are up to the task, see if the rig responds to the changes in the brass prep as you transition from a bunch of strange brass to ones that are all sized to your chamber.
Sometimes the tuning is very sensitive, other times it is not.

Good Luck and have fun. YMMV
Link Posted: 12/10/2021 5:12:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RegionRat:
r45d is touching on the same point I will make.

It takes more than one firing on brass introduced to a chamber, to fully form to that new chamber.

To start out, take just a few samples through multiple cycles where you intentionally only size the neck and being careful to allow the brass to grown to the point where it beings to act a little tight.
You will be taking inspection data on the fired and sized cases at every point and keeping good notes.

After several cycles, the shoulder datum length, the diameter at the 0.200" line, and the diameter at the body-shoulder junction, should stabilize.
Sometimes they will even give you a tight bolt closure on the first try, other times that doesn't happen after even five or six cycles.

The values should be tracked against any additional shoulder bump setting on the sizing die.

In most examples, there will be no issues with keeping the feed reliability running while also avoiding over-working the brass.
Once in a while, the chamber-die-brass relationship isn't happy due to the diameters even when the shoulder datum is controlled.
In these examples, a different die is required to control the diameters as well as the shoulder bump.

Also...
Now is also a good time to learn how or if the rig is sensitive to case volume differences.

If your loading process and shooting are up to the task, see if the rig responds to the changes in the brass prep as you transition from a bunch of strange brass to ones that are all sized to your chamber.
Sometimes the tuning is very sensitive, other times it is not.

Good Luck and have fun. YMMV
View Quote

Agreed, it will take several times thru the chamber to get the brass to conform fully to that chamber..Annealing after every firing helps..it softens the brass enough that the brass can form to the chamber better..And every dimension on the brass needs to be consistent and conform with the chamber...
Link Posted: 12/10/2021 9:37:41 PM EDT
[#16]
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:

Agreed, it will take several times thru the chamber to get the brass to conform fully to that chamber..Annealing after every firing helps..it softens the brass enough that the brass can form to the chamber better..And every dimension on the brass needs to be consistent and conform with the chamber...
View Quote


Good to know. I had planned to anneal at 3x but will do so at 2x now. Just loaded all my 1x.
Link Posted: 12/11/2021 12:41:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperJlarge] [#17]
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Originally Posted By SpeyRod:


Good to know. I had planned to anneal at 3x but will do so at 2x now. Just loaded all my 1x.
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Originally Posted By SpeyRod:
Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:

Agreed, it will take several times thru the chamber to get the brass to conform fully to that chamber..Annealing after every firing helps..it softens the brass enough that the brass can form to the chamber better..And every dimension on the brass needs to be consistent and conform with the chamber...


Good to know. I had planned to anneal at 3x but will do so at 2x now. Just loaded all my 1x.


I would suggest you test that for yourself, just for piece of mind.

It’s not uncommon to shoot 5x5 groups that average 0.4moa with factory ammo, or sub 0.3moa with virgin brass. Having brass formed to the chamber may not be the end all be all for precision, at least for what most need. For benchrest it may have merit, but for precision and overall reliability, there are likely other options depending on what’s needed.

I would suggest annealing at least every 2x to help alleviate fliers. Before I annealed, I saved my 3-4x brass for precision matches because they would still hold sub moa, but were not keeping them all close to half moa like the virgin and 1x loads would do. Precision was still acceptable, and I didn’t feel nearly as bad when I’d lose 20% of the cases at a match.
Link Posted: 12/11/2021 2:16:57 PM EDT
[#18]
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Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:


I would suggest you test that for yourself, just for piece of mind.

It’s not uncommon to shoot 5x5 groups that average 0.4moa with factory ammo, or sub 0.3moa with virgin brass. Having brass formed to the chamber may not be the end all be all for precision, at least for what most need. For benchrest it may have merit, but for precision and overall reliability, there are likely other options depending on what’s needed.

I would suggest annealing at least every 2x to help alleviate fliers. Before I annealed, I saved my 3-4x brass for precision matches because they would still hold sub moa, but were not keeping them all close to half moa like the virgin and 1x loads would do. Precision was still acceptable, and I didn’t feel nearly as bad when I’d lose 20% of the cases at a match.
View Quote


Got it. I am not capable of bench rest accuracy. If I can get 1/2” or less I am happy. I am hoping, with practice and loading quality ammo, to get into the .3’s.
Link Posted: 12/13/2021 2:14:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Blowout] [#19]
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Originally Posted By Morgan321:
I made a comparator, my dimensions are shoulder distance plus whatever random length my comparator is.  The measurements are relative, not absolute.
View Quote


After attaching your comparator to the calipers, close the calipers on the comparator and rezero. You will be able to read the actual distance.

To answer the OP questions:

Why is the brass fired in my gun so much shorter than brass fired in other guns?  Your chamber is probably slightly shorter than the other guns.

If I want my reloads to be as accurate as possible should I remove material from the shell holder to allow the die to bump the shoulders back to 2.422, 1-2 thousandths shorter than that, or should I live with the 2.424 brass that my die produces?  Your shell holder should be fine as-is. Sort your brass if your looking for the best accuracy/precision

If I have 2.422 brass mixed with 2.424 brass will I be able to see the difference in ammo performance? It's likely you will experience more variability just because of mixed brass, even if the length was identical. I expect the case volumes between FGMM and M118 are different. Always sort by headstamp for the best accuracy/precision
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 8:37:07 PM EDT
[#20]
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Originally Posted By Blowout:
After attaching your comparator to the calipers, close the calipers on the comparator and rezero. You will be able to read the actual distance.
View Quote


Yes, I should've said that the comparator I made is a random diameter, not the specification diameter, so it wouldn't matter anyway.  

I sized all the brass and am going to keep it separate.  I measured a few different shellholders and they were all within 1-2 thousandths in the dimension that sets the headspace.  I marked one shellholder that will always be used with the sizing die and sizes a case to have about 2 thousandths headspace in my rifle when the shellholder is bottomed out.  It's nice to have the solid stop of bottoming the shellholder against the die and not have to worry about adjustment,  

Last question:  
Imr4895 or imr4064?  
My gun shoots 168fgmm excellent.  I have tons of Sierra 2140 (165gameking "hpbt") that is made to the same shape as 168smk.  I'm leaning towards 4064 and just loading to match the MV of 168fgmm ammo and starting there.  
Link Posted: 12/19/2021 9:24:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Military brass requires at least 1.0 grain lighter charges than Federal commercial brass. I would start 2.0 whole grain lighter to start.

As you have discovered Federal brass resizes easily, Lake City not so much.

Camming over almost always works without modifying the die or shell holder.



Link Posted: 12/20/2021 12:18:22 PM EDT
[#22]
What type of sizing die? I've had a similar experience with a Hornady die.

Its related to chambers getting tighter for accuracy and die manufacturers making dies more foolproof so you can't oversize a case best I can tell.
Link Posted: 12/28/2021 6:51:56 PM EDT
[#23]
To follow up....  
The bullets are Sierra 2140 that I got for free in quantity.  Apparently same as 168smk but the tip is a hair shorter to make it more open so it will expand.  It's the "165gr hpbt gameking"

I loaded this m118 brass with 42.0, 42.4, and 42.8 of imr4064 with federal match primers.  
I seated the bullets so that the ammo was the same length as 168fgmm when measured with a bullet comparator.  
Rifle is a box-stock rem700 5r I got as a "blemish" before the second Remington bankruptcy.  

The 42 and 42.8 gr ammo shot around 1-1.5 inch groups.  The 42.4 did 1/2 inch groups.  I shot some 168fgmm for comparison since it is my "baseline" and it was about 1 inch groups.  

Pretty stoked, found an excellent load with only 15 rounds!  I have about 420 rounds worth to load and it only cost me $120 for 3lbs of powder and I have primers stockpiled at $40/brick from a few years ago.  Free bullets and brass.  I'm going to load all the ammo at 42.4 rather than try to tweak it up or down a 0.1 grain looking for better.

168fgmm: i shot it quickly as I had to leave, it usually shoots just a bit better than this:


42.4gr load:


Link Posted: 3/7/2022 9:59:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Last follow up - I loaded the batch of brass some time ago and finally got a chance to test out more than the 5 rounds to figure out the charge.  
Picture is 9 rounds.  The top right flyer was the first shot after cleaning the rifle.  
Given the cost of this batch of ammo (under 40cents per round) I’m pretty happy with it!

Link Posted: 3/8/2022 7:17:10 PM EDT
[#25]
I'll hitchhike this thread because one thing I don't get:

when using a normal FL sizing die for shoulder bumping, is there something special to be considered regarding the neck mandrel?
Do you set it up like you would for a real full length sizing?
Is polishing it slightly with 0000 wool for less drag advised? Something else?

I don't want to buy a special bushing die right now, so I'm looking for input on this.
Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 3/9/2022 2:15:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: borderpatrol] [#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeutschFNG:
I'll hitchhike this thread because one thing I don't get:

when using a normal FL sizing die for shoulder bumping, is there something special to be considered regarding the neck mandrel?
Do you set it up like you would for a real full length sizing?
Is polishing it slightly with 0000 wool for less drag advised? Something else?

I don't want to buy a special bushing die right now, so I'm looking for input on this.
Thanks in advance.
View Quote


I polish expander balls (or mandrels) by spinning them in a drill and using 600/1000/1500 grit wet dry sandpaper in that order. You can always touch up again with 1500 later, it won't remove any metal if you just clean it up.

Because most of my ammo gets fired in semi-auto rifles I modify expanders to achieve .003" neck tension on the sized brass. These parts are inexpensive and easily modified. I never crimp rifle ammo.

If you are using a mandrel alone after full length resizing, lube will help ease the process. Imperial Sizing Die Wax is my choice. Brownells/Sinclair International sell carbide expanders that are a lot easier to use than tool steel. They are a lot more expensive.



Link Posted: 3/9/2022 6:00:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DeutschFNG] [#27]
@ borderpatrol

Ok, thanks.
So I get this right, I set up the mandrel, as I would for a full length sizing job all the way down to the rim.

I'll give this a try with some scrap brass and see what kind of neck tension I get before altering the mandrel diameter.
Link Posted: 3/31/2022 10:34:53 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WhiskeyBear:
Are you camming over on the press at all?


I believe you can get that extra .001 or .002 bump by advancing your die past shell holder initial contact by 1/4 or so of a turn.

Might try Redding competition shell holder set as well.

View Quote




Not always helpful they run in +0.002 increments, no negative increments.   Oh an the ordinary shellholder is not 0.00, it is unrelated to the stepped series of shell holders unless you get a random luck one.
Link Posted: 3/31/2022 10:52:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel] [#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeutschFNG:
@ borderpatrol

Ok, thanks.
So I get this right, I set up the mandrel, as I would for a full length sizing job all the way down to the rim.

I'll give this a try with some scrap brass and see what kind of neck tension I get before altering the mandrel diameter.
View Quote




Assuming you are talking about an ordinary style FL die with the expander ball and depriming pin on a threaded stem.....thread it in low enough to reliably push out spent primers.  No need to bottom the expander out, in fact you will bend the threaded rod if you do bottom out.  It is good to be well shy of bottoming out too as a change of brass may have a substantial difference in web thickness.


Polishing with crocus cloth, very fine sand paper, etc is more to get a smooth pull than a different size neck.  Of course you can reduce the size if you want but the expanders are usually quite small as it is.  I recommend to just polish what you have and call it good for now.
Link Posted: 3/31/2022 12:07:07 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:




Assuming you are talking about an ordinary style FL die with the expander ball and depriming pin on a threaded stem.....thread it in low enough to reliably push out spent primers.  No need to bottom the expander out, in fact you will bend the threaded rod if you do bottom out.  It is good to be well shy of bottoming out too as a change of brass may have a substantial difference in web thickness.


Polishing with crocus cloth, very fine sand paper, etc is more to get a smooth pull than a different size neck.  Of course you can reduce the size if you want but the expanders are usually quite small as it is.  I recommend to just polish what you have and call it good for now.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:
Originally Posted By DeutschFNG:
@ borderpatrol

Ok, thanks.
So I get this right, I set up the mandrel, as I would for a full length sizing job all the way down to the rim.

I'll give this a try with some scrap brass and see what kind of neck tension I get before altering the mandrel diameter.




Assuming you are talking about an ordinary style FL die with the expander ball and depriming pin on a threaded stem.....thread it in low enough to reliably push out spent primers.  No need to bottom the expander out, in fact you will bend the threaded rod if you do bottom out.  It is good to be well shy of bottoming out too as a change of brass may have a substantial difference in web thickness.


Polishing with crocus cloth, very fine sand paper, etc is more to get a smooth pull than a different size neck.  Of course you can reduce the size if you want but the expanders are usually quite small as it is.  I recommend to just polish what you have and call it good for now.


<This.

I knock primers out before I resize so my primer pockets get cleaned when tumbling. I set my sizing die up so the mandrel just clears the case neck when the ram is fully up, then lower the ram until it touches the neck before tightening the expander ball down.

This insures that the expander is centered when locked in place.
Link Posted: 3/31/2022 7:34:39 PM EDT
[#31]
Just because you adjusted the die down to touch the shell holder does not mean it is actually sizing all the way. Take a piece of brass that is long and run it up into the FL die. Do not remove it yet. Look under the die and between the shell holder. If there is a gap you are not sizing all that you can. Lots of presses out there are really weak and the press will flex and not size all the way. This is why people think they need a small base die. They dont know how to adjust their dies
Link Posted: 4/7/2022 8:36:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Last update:  able to shoot some of this ammo at 300yds.  I’m not the best shooter in the world but I’m happy with it.  


Link Posted: 4/7/2022 11:47:34 PM EDT
[#33]
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