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Link Posted: 12/28/2017 2:47:18 PM EDT
Any updates from the OP?
Link Posted: 12/31/2017 12:23:47 PM EDT
I would be pretty unhappy as well. I was in the same boat, had a LaRue Stealth that was sub-moa but barely. Sold it and got a JP and it is a .5 moa gun. Not once in a while.....consistently. It's the most accurate gun I own, including bolt guns.

I'm looking at a target from a few weeks ago, 1st 5, five round groups.... .53 moa, .33, .49, .44, .50........last 5, five round groups..... .37 moa, .58 (had 4 rounds measure .15 and threw a round), .33, .95 (had to be me), .46.
Link Posted: 12/31/2017 12:25:55 PM EDT
You should shoot the moa challenge with that JP.
Link Posted: 12/31/2017 1:36:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Junglejim5:
Any updates from the OP?
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Of course not.
Link Posted: 12/31/2017 9:46:29 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By jefflebowski:
Of course not.
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Originally Posted By jefflebowski:
Originally Posted By Junglejim5:
Any updates from the OP?
Of course not.
Easiest way for sub-MOA all day is to not shoot it.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/1/2018 1:05:17 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By sgwlower:
You should shoot the moa challenge with that JP.
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Can you tell me where I can find that target with grids? Was planning on it next range trip.
Link Posted: 1/1/2018 2:24:42 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By cam308:

Can you tell me where I can find that target with grids? Was planning on it next range trip.
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You don't need them. But that being said you download grid targets off of larue.com
Link Posted: 1/1/2018 7:59:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2018 7:59:58 PM EDT by Harlikwin]
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Originally Posted By sgwlower:
I have an ECC, mine came from the period when they didn't even send out test groups.

That said, mine is. .75-1.00 moa gun with factory ammo when I half do my part, when I really focus and and do all my part she will touch holes.


Things I have learned about my SR25:

Accuracy will only get better as you shoot it, mine didn't really start tightening consistently till about 200 rounds down the tube.

Shooting a 308 gas gun accurately is a a wonderful fulfilling challenge. They are finicky and will let you know when you forget the fundamentals, and will reward you when you do.

If you don't reload, start, I am still load developing, but am working with a load now that my rifle seems to really enjoy.

If you don't reload, be prepared to try a bunch of different match loads, I tried a bunch until my rifle proved to like hornady match 168s the best ( I'm a 300 yard shooter in my little state). My buddy has an Acc, his loves Hornady black amax.

Watch for pressure signs, there were some loads my SR25 did not like and actually popped or flattened primers.

Your rifle will speak to you when it needs to be cleaned.

Don't be afraid to ask questions in the knights forum. Knights reps are active on this site and a great help.

The mams is worth the money.

I have owned Larues, JPs, and Sr25s. My ECC is my favorite rifle, my favorite of all the other ar10s I have shot, and the most consistently accurate.

Enjoy your new rifle, yes it was a lot of money, but if your experience is anything like mine you will feel it's worth when you shoot it.
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Pretty much all this, but especially the parts in bold. Alot of guys coming off bolt guns or with poor form blame the rifle first. Unfortunately semis just shoot differently and are really unforgiving to poor form when compared to bolt guns which are stupid easy to shoot by comparison.
Link Posted: 1/6/2018 2:22:37 AM EDT
No,no........no. Are you being unrealistic in the fantasy of getting what you paid for? No, you should get top tier for 5K. Are you being unrealistic in the fact that just because its expensive its good? YES. Unfortunately what you just bought was a $1500 rifle with a $3500 symbol stamped on the receiver. They are good rifles dont get me wrong but the price is not directly coming from performance or accuracy in this case. It wasnt designed for a top priority of accuracy only.

The next exaggerated fact IMO is of a gas gun being immensely more difficult to shoot well, came from guys who bought a $5000 rifle and cant shoot better than 1 MOA so to make themselves and others rocking the same boat feel better they say stuff like, well its just more difficult. No....no its not, its different with a short learning curve for an experienced shooter. Prime example, this summer a buddy and I were shooting steel 400-800 yds, we have our bolt guns out and I have my DPMS-LR260 (new barrel/trigger/handguard/buttstock). My buddy has never owned or shot an AR before so I had him try it out, 3 shots at 400 around 4" steps out to 800 and puts 5 shots inside 6". Luck?? more like Good shooter with a good rifle....%85

It will shoot better after a few hundred rounds......not exactly.This was another individual on the way home from the range looking for something to feel warm and fuzzy about his 5K rifle shooting worse than an off the shelf DPMS LR. I do "gunsmithing" as my hobby and I specialize-if you will- in precision rifles, if you are not seeing promising feedback from the rifle early on then it doesnt magically get better. I have yet to see an AR that is shooting 1MOA suddenly shrink to .5 after it "broke in". I have on record 33 ar15/ar10's that i have assembled for customers and I shoot them all before sending them on their way and I am here to tell you, shit today will be shit tomorrow.
Link Posted: 1/6/2018 1:17:19 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FarPlaces:
No,no........no. Are you being unrealistic in the fantasy of getting what you paid for? No, you should get top tier for 5K. Are you being unrealistic in the fact that just because its expensive its good? YES. Unfortunately what you just bought was a $1500 rifle with a $3500 symbol stamped on the receiver. They are good rifles dont get me wrong but the price is not directly coming from performance or accuracy in this case. It wasnt designed for a top priority of accuracy only.

The next exaggerated fact IMO is of a gas gun being immensely more difficult to shoot well, came from guys who bought a $5000 rifle and cant shoot better than 1 MOA so to make themselves and others rocking the same boat feel better they say stuff like, well its just more difficult. No....no its not, its different with a short learning curve for an experienced shooter. Prime example, this summer a buddy and I were shooting steel 400-800 yds, we have our bolt guns out and I have my DPMS-LR260 (new barrel/trigger/handguard/buttstock). My buddy has never owned or shot an AR before so I had him try it out, 3 shots at 400 around 4" steps out to 800 and puts 5 shots inside 6". Luck?? more like Good shooter with a good rifle....%85

It will shoot better after a few hundred rounds......not exactly.This was another individual on the way home from the range looking for something to feel warm and fuzzy about his 5K rifle shooting worse than an off the shelf DPMS LR. I do "gunsmithing" as my hobby and I specialize-if you will- in precision rifles, if you are not seeing promising feedback from the rifle early on then it doesnt magically get better. I have yet to see an AR that is shooting 1MOA suddenly shrink to .5 after it "broke in". I have on record 33 ar15/ar10's that i have assembled for customers and I shoot them all before sending them on their way and I am here to tell you, shit today will be shit tomorrow.
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What are you blathering about? The dude hasn't even shot it yet (that we know of) and is pissed that his test target wasn't small enough.

33 AR builds on record? That's cute.

Bump, because I want to see how this turns out. However, I suspect that we'll never know.
Link Posted: 1/6/2018 2:22:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2018 4:16:02 PM EDT by sgwlower]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FarPlaces:
No,no........no. Are you being unrealistic in the fantasy of getting what you paid for? No, you should get top tier for 5K. Are you being unrealistic in the fact that just because its expensive its good? YES. Unfortunately what you just bought was a $1500 rifle with a $3500 symbol stamped on the receiver. They are good rifles dont get me wrong but the price is not directly coming from performance or accuracy in this case. It wasnt designed for a top priority of accuracy only.

The next exaggerated fact IMO is of a gas gun being immensely more difficult to shoot well, came from guys who bought a $5000 rifle and cant shoot better than 1 MOA so to make themselves and others rocking the same boat feel better they say stuff like, well its just more difficult. No....no its not, its different with a short learning curve for an experienced shooter. Prime example, this summer a buddy and I were shooting steel 400-800 yds, we have our bolt guns out and I have my DPMS-LR260 (new barrel/trigger/handguard/buttstock). My buddy has never owned or shot an AR before so I had him try it out, 3 shots at 400 around 4" steps out to 800 and puts 5 shots inside 6". Luck?? more like Good shooter with a good rifle....%85

It will shoot better after a few hundred rounds......not exactly.This was another individual on the way home from the range looking for something to feel warm and fuzzy about his 5K rifle shooting worse than an off the shelf DPMS LR. I do "gunsmithing" as my hobby and I specialize-if you will- in precision rifles, if you are not seeing promising feedback from the rifle early on then it doesnt magically get better. I have yet to see an AR that is shooting 1MOA suddenly shrink to .5 after it "broke in". I have on record 33 ar15/ar10's that i have assembled for customers and I shoot them all before sending them on their way and I am here to tell you, shit today will be shit tomorrow.
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Wow what a bunch of BS. First of all I brought up saying shooting a semi auto is harder than shooting a bolt gun, and that a rifle gets better after break in--and what do you know I have 2 places on the 1moa challenge with two different semis, both shooting less than 1 moa. One of them a Knights 308.

Next, shooting a semi accurately, is more of a challenge than shooting a boltgun. There are a few different fundamentals to learn, and a few new things to take into consideration. More moving parts, equals more recoil impulses. With a bolt gun you get one, with a semi you get 3. You as the shooter need to be at your best to control follow through through all three to get the best out of your rifle. The challenges are not hard, just different and something new to learn and enjoy.

Articles for thought. Nick Irving "The Reaper" https://loadoutroom.com/12939/snipers-choice-bolt-action-vs-semi-auto-precision-rifles/
accuracy tech : http://www.accuracy-tech.com/long-range-shooting-with-semi-auto/

As for barrels getting better after break in. Barrels in general need a break in period after initial machining. Its controversial, but the top accuracy shooters all recommend a break in. JP, one of the most accurate semi auto manufacture's recommends a break in, as does Krieger, and Bartlien. Its to polish the barrel, getting rid of any machining flaws, and preventing raw copper from depositing it self in these flaws before they are properly polished out, and allowing carbon to settle in. It also allows for the proper breaking in of the throat. Once this break in is fully complete 100-200 rounds most people will notice an increase in speed of their barrel--it makes sense as the tube is now smoother as the flaws are gone, and imperfections lightly filled in with polished carbon. Bartlien barrels talks about this in the first link below towards the bottom.

https://forum.snipershide.com/forum/sniper%C2%92s-hide%C2%AE-armory-supply/sniper-s-hide-bolt-action-rifles/6383184-barrel-speeding-up
http://www.accuracy-tech.com/do-barrels-pick-up-speed/
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/break-rifle-barrel/

As for the overpriced statement--possibly. Knights has a definite higher cost than the average semi auto. There is no doubt that there is some paying for the name, that said you get the e3 bolt design, Stoners final iteration of his design. A sand cutter chromed BCG. It comes with a damn fine trigger, it comes with the best irons on the market, it comes with an mlok rail , it comes with an accurate barrel, and it comes with knowing that its brother are currently shooting Hajis in the face over seas with the m110 series. Chances are after buying a Knights the only thing you may swap out is the stock and grip, however the LMT/Knights sopmod that it comes with is a great stock.

I hope OP has shot his rifle now and is enjoying it. Test groups are nothing more than a capture of a rifles potential, put down range, by a human on any given day. As I said, my ECC didn't even come with a test group, and it shoots lights out!
Link Posted: 1/6/2018 3:53:14 PM EDT
Nothing was directed towards anybody first off but if the shoe fits..........No its just an opinion. The break in topic is very controversial with just as many people saying its needed as not needed. No doubt the barrel will smooth out some but i have yet to see any real impact on accuracy from that standpoint. My point is if its shooting over 1moa it wont shrink to half that because of a break in. Not to mention plenty of barrels are lapped which is designed to have the similar effect to a few bullets on break in.
Semi are different than bolt guns no doubt but its not this mystical beast that takes years to become a master of, that people make it out to be. My entire point is that when someone brings up why doesnt my 5K rifle shoot .5moa people always resort to the same topics which are not going to turn a 1+ moa rifle not designed to shoot tiny groups, into a 1/2moa gun consistently. That SR25 was designed for a specific purpose and it works great for that but all of that added cost was not put into shooting tiny groups. From my experience I still stand by the fact that if you want tiny groups you would have been much better off putting a high quality barrel on that DPMS.
Yes its brothers are shooting Haji';s in the face over seas but im not sure the OP cares at all about that and im not sure what that has to do with anything actually but it sounds cool.
My point is that just because its expensive that does not make it great in every category and a rifle that wasnt designed for benchrest accuracy wont become one with a break in and practice. Accuracy can and will improve but not by 75%. The OP bought a 5K rifle wondered why its not 2x as accurate as the other and people telling him to break it in and shoot it is not going to fix that.
Link Posted: 1/8/2018 7:51:32 PM EDT
How does it shoot in real life with match ammo? Working up a load perhaps??

I don't stake the potential of the rifle on its test target. Usually the test target is to prove function within minimum parameters, not to squeeze the tightest group possible that the rifle is capable of.
Link Posted: 1/9/2018 4:58:17 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FarPlaces:

Nothing was directed towards anybody first off but if the shoe fits..........No its just an opinion. The break in topic is very controversial with just as many people saying its needed as not needed. No doubt the barrel will smooth out some but i have yet to see any real impact on accuracy from that standpoint. My point is if its shooting over 1moa it wont shrink to half that because of a break in. Not to mention plenty of barrels are lapped which is designed to have the similar effect to a few bullets on break in.
Semi are different than bolt guns no doubt but its not this mystical beast that takes years to become a master of, that people make it out to be. My entire point is that when someone brings up why doesnt my 5K rifle shoot .5moa people always resort to the same topics which are not going to turn a 1+ moa rifle not designed to shoot tiny groups, into a 1/2moa gun consistently. That SR25 was designed for a specific purpose and it works great for that but all of that added cost was not put into shooting tiny groups. From my experience I still stand by the fact that if you want tiny groups you would have been much better off putting a high quality barrel on that DPMS.
Yes its brothers are shooting Haji';s in the face over seas but im not sure the OP cares at all about that and im not sure what that has to do with anything actually but it sounds cool.
My point is that just because its expensive that does not make it great in every category and a rifle that wasnt designed for benchrest accuracy wont become one with a break in and practice. Accuracy can and will improve but not by 75%. The OP bought a 5K rifle wondered why its not 2x as accurate as the other and people telling him to break it in and shoot it is not going to fix that.
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Both of my current homebuild precision ARs tightened up considerably after a few hundred rounds. They started at 2+ MOA, sometimes a good bit over that, but settled down to at or around MOA with blue box 77 SMK.
Link Posted: 1/9/2018 5:01:56 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By chupacabras:
How does it shoot in real life with match ammo? Working up a load perhaps??

I don't stake the potential of the rifle on its test target. Usually the test target is to prove function within minimum parameters, not to squeeze the tightest group possible that the rifle is capable of.
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OP ain’t gonna answer.
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 9:05:30 AM EDT
Whew. Pulled this screenshot off IG this AM.

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Link Posted: 6/8/2018 9:16:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/8/2018 9:23:11 AM EDT by Pneumagger]
OP paid $2000 for a nice 308 AR and another $3000 for the KAC rollmark. Anyone here could’ve told you you could build a better performing gun for 1/2 the cost.

1) Krieger/Bartlein barrel with matched bolt
2) Match trigger
3)
4) Profit

I Never understood why people pay KAC and HK prices when there’s alternatives that perform so much better. I’m not saying there’s not a reason I buy them, but their cost is almost never purely indicative of their on paper performance.
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 11:46:10 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Ghostface:
Some act like shooting a .308 at 1k takes am act of God...
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Less than 15 years ago .308 was what everyone had at the range, especially if they were a "sniper"
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 12:05:23 PM EDT
Holy shit I thought this was a tech forum...

OP... KAC is shooting one specific load for the rifle. You're seeing the first of only a few rounds though the barrel. The point of the test target is to ensure some fluke has not occurred in the MFG process resulting in unusually poor accuracy. Either go buy a couple different boxes of good ammo or do some load development and you'll find something your rifle likes. That said, your test target is about average for the new SR25's. My EMC came with a 0.56MOA target and shot 3/4-1 MOA with several different loads and shooters, which I expected. You have a capable rifle. Get out and shoot the barrel out.
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 12:09:48 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FarPlaces:

Nothing was directed towards anybody first off but if the shoe fits..........No its just an opinion. The break in topic is very controversial with just as many people saying its needed as not needed. No doubt the barrel will smooth out some but i have yet to see any real impact on accuracy from that standpoint. My point is if its shooting over 1moa it wont shrink to half that because of a break in. Not to mention plenty of barrels are lapped which is designed to have the similar effect to a few bullets on break in.
Semi are different than bolt guns no doubt but its not this mystical beast that takes years to become a master of, that people make it out to be. My entire point is that when someone brings up why doesnt my 5K rifle shoot .5moa people always resort to the same topics which are not going to turn a 1+ moa rifle not designed to shoot tiny groups, into a 1/2moa gun consistently. That SR25 was designed for a specific purpose and it works great for that but all of that added cost was not put into shooting tiny groups. From my experience I still stand by the fact that if you want tiny groups you would have been much better off putting a high quality barrel on that DPMS.
Yes its brothers are shooting Haji';s in the face over seas but im not sure the OP cares at all about that and im not sure what that has to do with anything actually but it sounds cool.
My point is that just because its expensive that does not make it great in every category and a rifle that wasnt designed for benchrest accuracy wont become one with a break in and practice. Accuracy can and will improve but not by 75%. The OP bought a 5K rifle wondered why its not 2x as accurate as the other and people telling him to break it in and shoot it is not going to fix that.
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How many H&R Handi rifle style hammer fired precision rifles do you see on the market? None...because lock time is slow as shit. Now look at an AR lower. That big heavy hammer that has to swing 90 degrees before it strikes the firing pin. So yes...for some people shooting a gas gun is significantly more difficult to master because much more concentration on the principles of accurate shooting are required. All of that is a moot point since the OP hasn't hit the range yet...or tried different types of ammo...etc.
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 12:10:57 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:
Holy shit I thought this was a tech forum...

OP... KAC is shooting one specific load for the rifle. You're seeing the first of only a few rounds though the barrel. The point of the test target is to ensure some fluke has not occurred in the MFG process resulting in unusually poor accuracy. Either go buy a couple different boxes of good ammo or do some load development and you'll find something your rifle likes. That said, your test target is about average for the new SR25's. My EMC came with a 0.56MOA target and shot 3/4-1 MOA with several different loads and shooters, which I expected. You have a capable rifle. Get out and shoot the barrel out.
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Probably late to the party here, but I'm in full agreement cms81586. Make some handloads for that bastard to really see what it can do.
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 12:11:53 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Pneumagger:
OP paid $2000 for a nice 308 AR and another $3000 for the KAC rollmark. Anyone here could’ve told you you could build a better performing gun for 1/2 the cost.

1) Krieger/Bartlein barrel with matched bolt
2) Match trigger
3)
4) Profit

I Never understood why people pay KAC and HK prices when there’s alternatives that perform so much better. I’m not saying there’s not a reason I buy them, but their cost is almost never purely indicative of their on paper performance.
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Very applicable to an AR-15. But 7.62 AR's are a different beast. Parts interchangeability and cooperation are nowhere near as standardized, and the most common troubleshooting threads on this forum are "Why doesn't my .308 AR function properly"...
Link Posted: 6/8/2018 12:51:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By cms81586:

Very applicable to an AR-15. But 7.62 AR's are a different beast. Parts interchangeability and cooperation are nowhere near as standardized, and the most common troubleshooting threads on this forum are "Why doesn't my .308 AR function properly"...
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Well damn said.
Link Posted: 6/9/2018 10:55:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/11/2018 6:50:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2018 6:51:52 PM EDT by Scotts556]
your paying 2k and a gun and thousands for "OMG THEY SELL TO THE GUBMENT AND SPECIAL FORCES!!!!!! BEST RIFLE EVER MADE!!!!! I MUST HAVE ONE CAUSE DELTA CAGE SF DEVGRU AIRSOFT WARRIORS" They really are not that great of a rifle.

Also your buying a rifle that is primarily used by people to shoot at other people. So .001 inch groups are definitely not in the requirement sheet. More Likely ~1 moa is spec sheet.

Scott
Link Posted: 6/13/2018 12:51:56 PM EDT
I've always thought the SR-15e3 was decent value for all that you get. The SR-25 is harder to stomach compared to building your own. I recently built a large frame using pretty much the most expensive components one can get (including a $900 barrel) and still didn't break 3k. Paying double that is hard.

My guess is that a lot of the SR-25 parts are built in house whereas they probably outsource a number of 15 parts from the bigger houses. That'll account for some of the price, R&D probably some too. They can't charge civilians less than they charge the government so that probably makes up some too.
Link Posted: 6/13/2018 1:10:35 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Scotts556:
your paying 2k and a gun and thousands for "OMG THEY SELL TO THE GUBMENT AND SPECIAL FORCES!!!!!! BEST RIFLE EVER MADE!!!!! I MUST HAVE ONE CAUSE DELTA CAGE SF DEVGRU AIRSOFT WARRIORS" They really are not that great of a rifle.

Also your buying a rifle that is primarily used by people to shoot at other people. So .001 inch groups are definitely not in the requirement sheet. More Likely ~1 moa is spec sheet.

Scott
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So, you’ve owned one?
Link Posted: 6/13/2018 6:29:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By jefflebowski:
So, you’ve owned one?
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Originally Posted By jefflebowski:
Originally Posted By Scotts556:
your paying 2k and a gun and thousands for "OMG THEY SELL TO THE GUBMENT AND SPECIAL FORCES!!!!!! BEST RIFLE EVER MADE!!!!! I MUST HAVE ONE CAUSE DELTA CAGE SF DEVGRU AIRSOFT WARRIORS" They really are not that great of a rifle.

Also your buying a rifle that is primarily used by people to shoot at other people. So .001 inch groups are definitely not in the requirement sheet. More Likely ~1 moa is spec sheet.

Scott
So, you’ve owned one?
Nope. But I've just shot a whole lot of em. Everything from straight out the box brand new ones to some very well used rifles.
Link Posted: 6/16/2018 11:50:43 PM EDT
Realistacally 1 moa is GTG for a practical 308 rifle out to its useful range. Way too many people get hung up on statistcal errors at 100 yds. Most "precision" shooters can barely hold 1 MOA with a semi auto anyway, and very very few want to admit it might be "them" and its all the guns fault.
Link Posted: 6/17/2018 12:14:59 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Harlikwin:
Realistacally 1 moa is GTG for a practical 308 rifle out to its useful range. Way too many people get hung up on statistcal errors at 100 yds. Most "precision" shooters can barely hold 1 MOA with a semi auto anyway, and very very few want to admit it might be "them" and its all the guns fault.
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Truth. The internet gets wound up about sub MOA, not knowing how useful a sub 2 MOA, reliable rifle is.
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