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Posted: 10/23/2017 6:16:57 PM EDT
I picked up my SR-25 E2 APR from the FFL. When I got home I was shocked to see the 5 shot group by KAC had an MOA of .966 My expectations were that a $ 5,000 weapon would shoot a .500 or better.

Yes, .966 is subMOA. Quality manufactures such as KAC, LaRue, and etc. say subMOA, but we expect much more. At least I do.

I am considering returning the weapon to KAC. The SR-25 feels like a high quality precision instrument. The .966 is just disappointing to me.

Am I being unrealistic?
Link Posted: 10/23/2017 6:42:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2017 6:54:36 PM EDT by bill3508]
Most of the report I'd seen we're around moa for the sr25. Don't have one so can only go by what I saw folks reporting. Some in the .5 range in a quick look. Every gun is different.

Wouldn't worry about what they shot at the factory either.
Link Posted: 10/23/2017 7:15:28 PM EDT
Don't worry. The gun shoots better than you.
Link Posted: 10/23/2017 9:22:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/23/2017 9:26:20 PM EDT by DaveS]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joshdb50:
Don't worry. The gun shoots better than you.
View Quote
So, you know LivingProof's capability on the range?

I've never had an ARMALITE AR-10A4 20" C-L'd or 10T 20"-24" SS.

that could not shoot multiple 5 shot groups @ 100yds with fodder that it liked.

And not one was a picky eater.

I've gone through about a dozen AR-10s since 1999 and I'd shoot for Pink Slips against that KAC.
Then, I'd wrench a Proof Research 6.5CM barrel in it.
Link Posted: 10/23/2017 9:50:40 PM EDT
That seems like a lot of coin for the mediocre accuracy shown on the test target. YMMV.
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 1:54:10 AM EDT
See how it does after break in.
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 2:44:22 AM EDT
While it is within spec, I too would want more for that sort of $$.
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 7:25:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2017 9:23:35 AM EDT by LivingProof]
Thanks for the reply's so far; appreciate the feedback. As requested, some background on my capabilities.

I competitive shoot at 200 yards with a Cooper 6mm PPC. On a good day, MOA is anywhere from .15 - .35 Often getting two bullets through the same hole, it’s the third one that’s the trick.

Also have an Armalite SR-31 .308 that I shoot 1,000 yards. I am able to ping the 12 metal disk at 600 yards all day. 1000 yards is new to me, and I’m still working out the math including all the variables. At 100-600 yards, we do well.

For about 10 years I’ve owned a KAC SR-15 which is remarkable. With an ACOG and reddot, I’m able to pickup coyotes running at 100 yards and place the round exactly where I want it. I’m still surprise how accurate and precise this weapon is.

The SR-25 APR 20” barrel was going to complete my 200-1000 semi-auto sniper requirement. I realize that since I have been competitive shooting, my expectations of what a “good shooting” rifle is has gotten somewhat skewed. I expect excellence and am will to pay for it. Even if it means I have to wait years to get the money to purchase the weapon. Most of my research showed that one can expect a .25-.5 MOA with a KAC. I’ve since learned that that info is nowhere on KAC website. And I only gather this from reviews of the SR-25.

I sold a DPMS REPR, and threw in $3,000. on top of that to raise the money to purchase the SR-25 APR. The REPR shot a around MOA. My expectation was that the SR-25 would be at least twice as accurate as the REPR; especially since it was over twice as expensive.

To me, a $5,000 weapon that shoots 1 MOA or .966 is unacceptable. I’m just trying to figure out if I am being unrealistic.
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 8:25:15 AM EDT
In this thread you will learn that just because a rifle is expensive does not mean that it is accurate.
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 8:25:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2017 8:26:27 AM EDT by peligro113]
double
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 8:28:07 AM EDT
You should've looked at something other than a Knights Arm. rifle if you wanted submoa accuracy.
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 11:16:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2017 11:41:08 AM EDT by ICU]
I think its selling points are a combination of accuracy & reliability. Its still printing less than an inch in real life, you have proof. Everybody seems to shoot sub-moa on the web, so I take most w a grain of salt. It may not be dropping into one hole, bit I would hope its a lot more reliable across different ammo/conditions/dirt/etc. than a competition gun. Now an extra 3k worth of reliable, thats up to you to decide...

Some dont mind paying because some SOF unit used it sometime/somewhere...
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 9:23:50 PM EDT
I have the SR25 APC and it shoots .60 all day and have down to .5 with factory 168 Fed.
Also have the Seekins SP10 and it shoots .5 all day with almost every brand of factory ammo.
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 9:38:39 PM EDT
Have you shot it yet? Maybe the tester at KAC was having an off day? Do they/you use a ransom rest to take away any variables? Maybe a better trigger will help if they don't use one? What bullet weight did they/you use? Is handloading and option so you could work up a load it likes?

Before sending it back I would take as many variables away to see the real accuracy. I've never shot a KAC, so I have no skin in the game.
Link Posted: 10/24/2017 11:08:11 PM EDT
Test targets are shot by humans who occasionally do better on some days than others. I’ve had three 7.62 AR10 pattern guns- SR25 EC (.58 5 round test), LT tOBR (.63 3 round test), and LT OBR (.991 5 round test).

The OBR with the shitty test target is the best shooter of the three in actual use although the SR25 was not too far behind.

Don’t put too much faith in test targets. You still have one of the best AR10s on the market and should feel pretty good about that.

Consistent sub moa groups with a large frame ARalso may not be a realistic expectation. You won’t even find many OBRs that will do that.
Link Posted: 10/25/2017 8:00:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2017 8:02:24 AM EDT by LivingProof]
gdfela27: Your results are exactly what I was expecting. Good for you.
Link Posted: 10/29/2017 2:31:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2017 2:32:22 AM EDT by AcidGambit]
Break it in properly. Shoot 5rds, clean with shooters choice (on anything the revoces copper),shoot 5rds clean with sc, rinse and repeat. That is JL advice.

There was a statement by someone, a legit guy, that hise test target was .8 or .9’ish... After proper break in, it was down under .5moa.

I do wonder if KAC tests them with just tje irons or if they attach an optic.
Link Posted: 10/29/2017 2:43:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2017 2:45:26 AM EDT by uglygun]
For the money...

GA Precision, Larue, JP Enterprises depending on what exactly I was wanting.

Knights not as much.
Link Posted: 10/29/2017 12:07:12 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By peligro113:
In this thread you will learn that just because a rifle is expensive does not mean that it is accurate.
View Quote
In this thread, you find out how many inexperienced shooters will knee-jerk their responses based on one sample group before the OP even shoots 100rds through the rifle.

I've had 20" SR25s come through my courses that shoot 175gr and 178gr BTHP at 1000yds sub-MOA.

I personally don't pay much attention to test-fired groups from the factory.
Link Posted: 10/29/2017 12:27:19 PM EDT
We shall see...
Link Posted: 10/29/2017 9:15:02 PM EDT
1. Test targets don't mean dick except the gun shoots and there isn't anything monumentally broken on it. Nothing more.

2. Shoot it a bit before any judgements. My best shooters shot like shit when I first shot them, but they eventually break in after a low couple hundred rounds and start to finally hit their stride.
Link Posted: 10/29/2017 10:23:18 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gdfela27:
I have the SR25 APC and it shoots .60 all day and have down to .5 with factory 168 Fed.
Also have the Seekins SP10 and it shoots .5 all day with almost every brand of factory ammo.
View Quote
That’s pretty impressive. Are these 5 shot groups?

OP, if utmost accuracy is what you were after, you should have looked at a JP, GAP or Falkor. A buddy has several Falkors and they all shoot impressive groups.
Link Posted: 10/30/2017 10:13:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2017 10:16:26 PM EDT by Cole2534]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AcidGambit:
Break it in properly. Shoot 5rds, clean with shooters choice (on anything the revoces copper),shoot 5rds clean with sc, rinse and repeat. That is JL advice.

There was a statement by someone, a legit guy, that hise test target was .8 or .9’ish... After proper break in, it was down under .5moa.

I do wonder if KAC tests them with just tje irons or if they attach an optic.
View Quote
My SR-25's weapon record book shows that 2rds were fired at the factory to zero an optic, so ya they use one.

Here is my test target, .906 with a solid flyer.  

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 11/5/2017 9:37:34 PM EDT
I'll add that coming from bolt guns to gassers is hard for many folks, and it isn't the gun. Just because you shoot .3" groups with a BR gun is probably more of a handicap than an asset.
Link Posted: 11/6/2017 3:15:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2017 3:16:36 PM EDT by roamin]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
In this thread, you find out how many inexperienced shooters will knee-jerk their responses based on one sample group before the OP even shoots 100rds through the rifle.

I've had 20" SR25s come through my courses that shoot 175gr and 178gr BTHP at 1000yds sub-MOA.

I personally don't pay much attention to test-fired groups from the factory.
View Quote
Averaging sub MOA at 1,000 yards with a 308.

In this thread we learn whose full of crap.
Link Posted: 11/6/2017 3:55:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/6/2017 8:18:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2017 8:19:41 PM EDT by LRRPF52]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By roamin:
Averaging sub MOA at 1,000 yards with a 308.

In this thread we learn whose full of crap.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By roamin:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
In this thread, you find out how many inexperienced shooters will knee-jerk their responses based on one sample group before the OP even shoots 100rds through the rifle.

I've had 20" SR25s come through my courses that shoot 175gr and 178gr BTHP at 1000yds sub-MOA.

I personally don't pay much attention to test-fired groups from the factory.
Averaging sub MOA at 1,000 yards with a 308.

In this thread we learn whose full of crap.
(It's who's, not whose, and you won't find the word averaging in my post.)

With my wind calls, with a rifle/optic/ammo combination, a decent shooter will be on-target out as far as their rifle will reach predictably.

That range is at 6600ft elevation, so a tight twist .308 with a 175gr or better will actually reach out past 1000yds in those conditions.

I see it all the time, have been doing this regularly for 23 years.

1000yds
3rd group at 12 o'clock on the center dot is from a 20" SR25 with a Hornady Match load.

6rd group at 1 o'clock is from my 17.6" Lilja barreled 6.5 Grendel, 123gr AMAX hand load, not a max load, rapid-fired. It's 8" vertical, 4" horizontal.

Reticle wasn't even on the gong, held somewhere around 2 mils into the wind for the conditions.



Link Posted: 11/6/2017 9:12:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2017 9:17:56 PM EDT by Ghostface]
Some act like shooting a .308 at 1k takes am act of God...
Link Posted: 11/6/2017 9:42:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2017 2:54:43 AM EDT by roamin]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
(It's who's, not whose
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
(It's who's, not whose
My mistake

Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
and you won't find the word averaging in my post.)
I know I won't but that's my point, and you will find the word averaging in my posts.


Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
3rd group at 12 o'clock on the center dot is from a 20" SR25 with a Hornady Match load.

6rd group at 1 o'clock is from my 17.6" Lilja barreled 6.5 Grendel, 123gr AMAX hand load, not a max load, rapid-fired. It's 8" vertical, 4" horizontal.
I've velocity tested factory Hornady ammo at an ES of anywhere in between 30-80fps, and most commonly around 60fps. Some lot #'s produce excellent results and others are lacking. While the ammo has shot very accurately at 100 yards Hornady shows a wide variance of velocity consistency in their factory match ammo.

@ 80 fps ES 308 with 178gr ELD-X at 1000 yards there would be 28 inches vertical spread from the highest velocity shot to the lowest caused by the ES. Even if the shooter/rifle are averaging 1/2 MOA you're at a 33 inch vertical spread

@ 60 fps ES 21 inches vertical spread from ES alone @ 1k

@ 30 fps ES 11 inches vertical spread from ES alone @ 1k

The results with a factory load of 6.5 Grendel wouldn't be any better, possibly even just slightly worse btw.

That does not mean the rifle can't produce the occasional sub MOA group at 1k but I'm talking about things that influence the actual shot pattern that a 308 maybe capable of averaging over time and it isn't sub MOA out to a grand. It's easy and also deceptive to post the best results which are only occasionally produced by luck encouraging others to believe those results are the norm of what they can expect. There's a reason so many choose more capable calibers than 308 or 6.5G for longer ranges. Hornady's consistency is competitive with the best of other brands of match ammo and ES will be present and must be accounted for regardless of which brand of ammo is used Hornady, or otherwise, even handloads. I guess you could post some more rarely achieved groups but that wouldn't change the physics of things that influence accuracy at these distances.
Link Posted: 11/6/2017 9:51:29 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
(It's who's, not whose, and you won't find the word averaging in my post.)

With my wind calls, with a rifle/optic/ammo combination, a decent shooter will be on-target out as far as their rifle will reach predictably.

That range is at 6600ft elevation, so a tight twist .308 with a 175gr or better will actually reach out past 1000yds in those conditions.

I see it all the time, have been doing this regularly for 23 years.

1000yds
3rd group at 12 o'clock on the center dot is from a 20" SR25 with a Hornady Match load.

6rd group at 1 o'clock is from my 17.6" Lilja barreled 6.5 Grendel, 123gr AMAX hand load, not a max load, rapid-fired. It's 8" vertical, 4" horizontal.

Reticle wasn't even on the gong, held somewhere around 2 mils into the wind for the conditions.

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j422/LRRPF52/IMG_03641_zpsir0bfju9.jpg

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j422/LRRPF52/DM%20Course%20Winter%202016/NS-DAS-2-27-16-12_zps0lqhcsj0.jpg
View Quote
Only thing more impressive then your wind wind calls is your modesty.
Link Posted: 11/6/2017 9:55:19 PM EDT
OP, you don't know a lot of shooting if you are excited about a sample size of one.

Lets say it came from KAC with a .3" 5 shot group. Does that mean it is a more accurate rifle? The truth is you won't know until you decide on a round (or rounds) and shoot multiple groups.

.308 gas guns are 1" guns if you are lucky. And still, as 1" guns, they are more capable than 95% of the shooters who get behind them. Are you going to shoot for groups at 1000? If so, you might want to think about whether the AR10 is the right platform, because $5k can buy you a lot of gun when you are talking about bolt action rifles.
Link Posted: 11/6/2017 10:00:17 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Middlelength:
OP, you don't know a lot of shooting if you are excited about a sample size of one.

Lets say it came from KAC with a .3" 5 shot group. Does that mean it is a more accurate rifle? The truth is you won't know until you decide on a round (or rounds) and shoot multiple groups.

.308 gas guns are 1" guns if you are lucky. And still, as 1" guns, they are more capable than 95% of the shooters who get behind them. Are you going to shoot for groups at 1000? If so, you might want to think about whether the AR10 is the right platform, because $5k can buy you a lot of gun when you are talking about bolt action rifles.
View Quote
I agree with this. 1 inch from a gas gun is plenty good. If your wanting super tiny groups a bolt gun would probably be the way to go.
Link Posted: 11/7/2017 10:25:22 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RePp:
I agree with this. 1 inch from a gas gun is plenty good. If your wanting super tiny groups a bolt gun would probably be the way to go.
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Originally Posted By RePp:
Originally Posted By Middlelength:
OP, you don't know a lot of shooting if you are excited about a sample size of one.

Lets say it came from KAC with a .3" 5 shot group. Does that mean it is a more accurate rifle? The truth is you won't know until you decide on a round (or rounds) and shoot multiple groups.

.308 gas guns are 1" guns if you are lucky. And still, as 1" guns, they are more capable than 95% of the shooters who get behind them. Are you going to shoot for groups at 1000? If so, you might want to think about whether the AR10 is the right platform, because $5k can buy you a lot of gun when you are talking about bolt action rifles.
I agree with this. 1 inch from a gas gun is plenty good. If your wanting super tiny groups a bolt gun would probably be the way to go.
Yup, I own many 308 gas/recoil operated precision rifles, I've shot .5MOA groups with all of them at some point or another, but i wouldn't call any of them .5moa guns. Most of them run ~.75-1MOA on a good day. Then I can pull out a 308 bolt gun, and shoot that at an honest .5moa. Thats just the way it is.
Link Posted: 11/7/2017 10:33:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2017 10:34:17 PM EDT by LRRPF52]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By roamin:
My mistake

I know I won't but that's my point, and you will find the word averaging in my posts.


I've velocity tested factory Hornady ammo at an ES of anywhere in between 30-80fps, and most commonly around 60fps. Some lot #'s produce excellent results and others are lacking. While the ammo has shot very accurately at 100 yards Hornady shows a wide variance of velocity consistency in their factory match ammo.

@ 80 fps ES 308 with 178gr ELD-X at 1000 yards there would be 28 inches vertical spread from the highest velocity shot to the lowest caused by the ES. Even if the shooter/rifle are averaging 1/2 MOA you're at a 33 inch vertical spread

@ 60 fps ES 21 inches vertical spread from ES alone @ 1k

@ 30 fps ES 11 inches vertical spread from ES alone @ 1k

The results with a factory load of 6.5 Grendel wouldn't be any better, possibly even just slightly worse btw.

That does not mean the rifle can't produce the occasional sub MOA group at 1k but I'm talking about things that influence the actual shot pattern that a 308 maybe capable of averaging over time and it isn't sub MOA out to a grand. It's easy and also deceptive to post the best results which are only occasionally produced by luck encouraging others to believe those results are the norm of what they can expect. There's a reason so many choose more capable calibers than 308 or 6.5G for longer ranges. Hornady's consistency is competitive with the best of other brands of match ammo and ES will be present and must be accounted for regardless of which brand of ammo is used Hornady, or otherwise, even handloads. I guess you could post some more rarely achieved groups but that wouldn't change the physics of things that influence accuracy at these distances.
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Originally Posted By roamin:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
(It's who's, not whose
My mistake

Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
and you won't find the word averaging in my post.)
I know I won't but that's my point, and you will find the word averaging in my posts.


Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
3rd group at 12 o'clock on the center dot is from a 20" SR25 with a Hornady Match load.

6rd group at 1 o'clock is from my 17.6" Lilja barreled 6.5 Grendel, 123gr AMAX hand load, not a max load, rapid-fired. It's 8" vertical, 4" horizontal.
I've velocity tested factory Hornady ammo at an ES of anywhere in between 30-80fps, and most commonly around 60fps. Some lot #'s produce excellent results and others are lacking. While the ammo has shot very accurately at 100 yards Hornady shows a wide variance of velocity consistency in their factory match ammo.

@ 80 fps ES 308 with 178gr ELD-X at 1000 yards there would be 28 inches vertical spread from the highest velocity shot to the lowest caused by the ES. Even if the shooter/rifle are averaging 1/2 MOA you're at a 33 inch vertical spread

@ 60 fps ES 21 inches vertical spread from ES alone @ 1k

@ 30 fps ES 11 inches vertical spread from ES alone @ 1k

The results with a factory load of 6.5 Grendel wouldn't be any better, possibly even just slightly worse btw.

That does not mean the rifle can't produce the occasional sub MOA group at 1k but I'm talking about things that influence the actual shot pattern that a 308 maybe capable of averaging over time and it isn't sub MOA out to a grand. It's easy and also deceptive to post the best results which are only occasionally produced by luck encouraging others to believe those results are the norm of what they can expect. There's a reason so many choose more capable calibers than 308 or 6.5G for longer ranges. Hornady's consistency is competitive with the best of other brands of match ammo and ES will be present and must be accounted for regardless of which brand of ammo is used Hornady, or otherwise, even handloads. I guess you could post some more rarely achieved groups but that wouldn't change the physics of things that influence accuracy at these distances.
I'm no fan of the .308 Win, but I'm just relating what I've seen from the SR25 in my courses.

The thread is about SR25 accuracy. I'm providing one set of anecdotal results that I've personally seen at 10x the distance the OP seems to be concerned about, 1000yds.

2550fps
1000 1584 991fps -320"

2565fps
1000 1595 1006fps -316"

2535fps
1000 1572 977fps -325"

I'm not exactly sure on what ammo he used. It was either Hornady Match 178gr, Black Hills 175gr SMK, or SSA 175gr SMK.

Vertical spread on it was extremely tight for 1000yds, surprised me.

The barrel had also been dimpled by another source common in the SR25 market.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 10:38:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2017 10:39:36 AM EDT by Marksman14]
If you're concerned about shooting groups at 100, buy some FGMM or Black Hills 168 SMK loads. My guess is you'll see right around 3/4 inch groups or so with that.

If you're planning on going past 300, I found that 175s (FGMM or Black Hills) shot better at distance than they did at 100. My zero groupings with 175 at 100 were usually right at an inch. Once I took it out to 300 or farther, groups settled in to about the .75-.8 range.

Mine both did very well at 600, never had a chance to stretch them farther.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 1:17:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By roamin:
Averaging sub MOA at 1,000 yards with a 308.

In this thread we learn whose full of crap.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By roamin:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
In this thread, you find out how many inexperienced shooters will knee-jerk their responses based on one sample group before the OP even shoots 100rds through the rifle.

I've had 20" SR25s come through my courses that shoot 175gr and 178gr BTHP at 1000yds sub-MOA.

I personally don't pay much attention to test-fired groups from the factory.
Averaging sub MOA at 1,000 yards with a 308.

In this thread we learn whose full of crap.
with a 20" barrel .......things that make you go mmmmmmmmm.......
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 1:52:32 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dttheliman:
with a 20" barrel .......things that make you go mmmmmmmmm.......
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Originally Posted By dttheliman:
Originally Posted By roamin:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
In this thread, you find out how many inexperienced shooters will knee-jerk their responses based on one sample group before the OP even shoots 100rds through the rifle.

I've had 20" SR25s come through my courses that shoot 175gr and 178gr BTHP at 1000yds sub-MOA.

I personally don't pay much attention to test-fired groups from the factory.
Averaging sub MOA at 1,000 yards with a 308.

In this thread we learn whose full of crap.
with a 20" barrel .......things that make you go mmmmmmmmm.......
At 6600 feet above sea level, with maybe 23.4" of mercury.

Not hard with the right twist rate. That gong is at 1000yds, you can't shoot at it from any other distance on that range, because the firing positions are 1000yds from it.

I've made 1st-round hits with a 22" .308 and 175gr SMKs at over 1100yds before down at 4,800 ft ASL.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 6:04:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2017 6:05:13 PM EDT by dttheliman]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
At 6600 feet above sea level, with maybe 23.4" of mercury.

Not hard with the right twist rate. That gong is at 1000yds, you can't shoot at it from any other distance on that range, because the firing positions are 1000yds from it.

I've made 1st-round hits with a 22" .308 and 175gr SMKs at over 1100yds before down at 4,800 ft ASL.
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Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
Originally Posted By dttheliman:
Originally Posted By roamin:
Originally Posted By LRRPF52:
In this thread, you find out how many inexperienced shooters will knee-jerk their responses based on one sample group before the OP even shoots 100rds through the rifle.

I've had 20" SR25s come through my courses that shoot 175gr and 178gr BTHP at 1000yds sub-MOA.

I personally don't pay much attention to test-fired groups from the factory.
Averaging sub MOA at 1,000 yards with a 308.

In this thread we learn whose full of crap.
with a 20" barrel .......things that make you go mmmmmmmmm.......
At 6600 feet above sea level, with maybe 23.4" of mercury.

Not hard with the right twist rate. That gong is at 1000yds, you can't shoot at it from any other distance on that range, because the firing positions are 1000yds from it.

I've made 1st-round hits with a 22" .308 and 175gr SMKs at over 1100yds before down at 4,800 ft ASL.
I should have chucked a reference to roamin in that comment - sarcastic comment was vague -  while 1000 yards is not an easy target especially when further amplified with all the fun ballistics .308 and shorter barrels bring  I agree you have a serious advantage at 6,600 ft - and I know you can shoot . 'nuff said !  
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 6:14:19 PM EDT
Where's OP?  I'd like to see how his rifle is shooting.
Link Posted: 11/8/2017 8:12:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2017 8:13:08 PM EDT by roamin]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dttheliman:

I should have chucked a reference to roamin in that comment - sarcastic comment was vague -  while 1000 yards is not an easy target especially when further amplified with all the fun ballistics .308 and shorter barrels bring  I agree you have a serious advantage at 6,600 ft - and I know you can shoot . 'nuff said !  
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I've no doubts that he knows how to shoot but physics are physics. With 308 the ES of factory ammo will open groups up to well beyond MOA at 1k. Maybe you can pull off a 3rnd group by luck but fire a 10rnd group of 308 with factory ammo we'll get the real story which is probably 3moa at 1k.
Link Posted: 11/9/2017 1:54:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By roamin:
I've no doubts that he knows how to shoot but physics are physics. With 308 the ES of factory ammo will open groups up to well beyond MOA at 1k. Maybe you can pull off a 3rnd group by luck but fire a 10rnd group of 308 with factory ammo we'll get the real story which is probably 3moa at 1k.
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Originally Posted By roamin:
Originally Posted By dttheliman:

I should have chucked a reference to roamin in that comment - sarcastic comment was vague -  while 1000 yards is not an easy target especially when further amplified with all the fun ballistics .308 and shorter barrels bring  I agree you have a serious advantage at 6,600 ft - and I know you can shoot . 'nuff said !  
I've no doubts that he knows how to shoot but physics are physics. With 308 the ES of factory ammo will open groups up to well beyond MOA at 1k. Maybe you can pull off a 3rnd group by luck but fire a 10rnd group of 308 with factory ammo we'll get the real story which is probably 3moa at 1k.
Black Hills and M118LR actually have amazingly tight ES for production ammo.

It has totally changed the way your final fire tests are done at some of the Sniping courses, combined with ballistics software.

You would never attempt a 1st-round hit on an 800m full silhouette back in the day of dope books, but now they are shooting reduced size targets 1st-round at that distance like it's cool down at sea level.

If you get a ton of time behind a spotting scope with one particularly capable load/rifle/optic, you will start to get very confident with knowing how it behaves in the wind. In the good schools, you shoot at least 2 weeks straight, and some of the courses have gotten rid of pit monkeying, so effectively doubled the trigger time in the same 2 weeks. They did this with automated targets, like from LaRue.

I've been watching M118 and M118LR through the spotting scope for over 2 decades now on a regular basis, not inflating anything, just the reality of where I've chosen to focus much of my time. I feel very confident in my ability to make hits with it, and provide wind hold data to a shooter for repeated 1st-round hits, even in 10mph winds.

This is one of the reasons why 6.5mm and 6mm feel like cheating.
Link Posted: 11/12/2017 8:10:15 PM EDT
Built a 6.5 Creedmoor AR-10 with high quality JP parts for less than half that and it shoots .3-.4 moa at 100y.
Link Posted: 11/14/2017 10:58:47 PM EDT
A good friend of mine was a USMC SS, became a contractor afterward, rather impressive dude. Anyhow, he has always told me that the KAC he used in the USMC was "not that good" of a rifle in terms of "precision." He ended up getting to use an LMT MWS during some of his contracting days, had a Milazzo-Krieger (sp?) trigger. He said there was no comparison, that the LMT put the KAC to shame in the accuracy department.

He said the KAC was a great rifle as it was extremely reliable. He said that the accuracy was rather poor by their (SS) standards. To add fuel to the fire, he also noted that the accuracy got worse once the can got attached to the rifle.

I'm not saying any of this to state that KAC are shitty rifles, etc, etc...in fact, I happen to absolutely love KAC's rifles. However, I don't expect my KAC rifle to be a precision rifle. I would entertain them as a very accurate battle rifle (DMR-ish?)

Although I have to admit, I've not shot my SR15 for groups. I am curious how it will do...looks like I got myself a job for the winter! It would be kind of cool if it shot very accurately.

Do you reload? You may be able to squeeze better accuracy out of your KAC. I'd get everything broken in and go from there. I wouldn't judge the rifle's abilities on the test target alone.

Lastly, I'd also take into consideration the fact that they shot a 5 round group for your test target, and the group was sub-minute. That is excellent. I know some folks shoot three rounds and call that a group, but I've shot some shitty steel cased Tula out of an AK that had three rounds touching.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I can always shill for JP Enterprises if you're not happy with the accuracy out of your KAC, but I'd stick with your KAC.
Link Posted: 11/18/2017 4:33:57 PM EDT
My Observations:

Break in the barrel with Match ammo, and use this time to practice shooting a semi-auto. Some of the SR25 reviews you've seen may have included SR25s running an Obermeyer barrel. .5 MOA groups are pretty common for those guns, with factory match ammo.

The SR25's URX4 is not an ideal set up in the current market, because it attaches similarly to a mil spec barrel nut, which puts all of the stresses on the front of the upper receiver. New set ups, which are much more suited to avoiding stress on a floated barrel, are like the LaRue OBR and PredatAR 7.62, LMT LM8, Seekins, Mega, etc... where the barrel nuts are not also supporting the handguard. You cannot load a bipod on an SR25 or you'll come back with a lovely 4" group. Very little bipod loading, and very little finger pressure on the pistol grip when applying pressure to the trigger will give you more consistent results.

All of the other principals and techniques for shooting a large frame, semi auto rifle apply.

Ditch the trigger and install a real match trigger - SSA-E, HSNM DMR, MBT-2S, AR Gold, Milazzo Krieger, etc... The SR25 trigger is a combat trigger, not a precise match trigger.

Install good glass.

If you're going to install a Magpul PRS gen 3, make sure you torque the hell out of the second bolt

KAC says the APR/APC is designed for use with M118LR - or FGMM 308M2 / FGMM 762M2 for those of us that cannot touch the brown boxes. I have more consistent groupings with 168gr FGMM 308.

Your barrel will take a while to break in. I don't know what KAC is brewing these days, but my groups went from 1.5" on average to under 1" in similar shooting conditions after 500 rounds.

Good luck, and good shooting.

I really love my SR25. People who hold and shoot it instantly love it too. I bought it for the reputation, the ambi controls, and the MLOK, However, if I could do it again, I would have bought a GAP10 or tOBR/tAR 7.62 first.
Link Posted: 12/3/2017 7:21:57 PM EDT
I have an old mk11 era gun (not 100% correct) with the obermeyer. It is .5-.75. It's also a total pig and weighs like 14lbs. The new acc can shoot with 95% the precision with 5lbs less weight. At .75 or better, you've got all you need to start learning the wind. And that's a lifetime endeavor, at least for people like me who don't get paid to shoot and have to sneak off from the wife once every month or so.
Link Posted: 12/15/2017 12:08:09 PM EDT
Sample size of one, factory ammo, etc. Why not....go shoot the rifle?

My brother liked his SR-25 in Fallujah (1:50).

Link Posted: 12/16/2017 10:16:02 PM EDT
There's a guy on FB doing some handload testing with his ACC and getting .4" groups at 100y.
Link Posted: 12/16/2017 10:41:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2017 10:47:03 PM EDT by Sinister]
Dang double-tap.

It's a sub-moa gun. You're going to need lots of work to keep it half-MOA. You know how to shoot a good bolt gun. An SR is obviously not a bolt gun.
Link Posted: 12/16/2017 10:43:41 PM EDT
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I’m just trying to figure out if I am being unrealistic.
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Yes.

Next slide.
Link Posted: 12/19/2017 11:08:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2017 8:58:21 AM EDT by sgwlower]
I have an ECC, mine came from the period when they didn't even send out test groups.

That said, mine is. .75-1.00 moa gun with factory ammo when I half do my part, when I really focus and and do all my part she will touch holes.

Things I have learned about my SR25:

Accuracy will only get better as you shoot it, mine didn't really start tightening consistently till about 200 rounds down the tube.

Shooting a 308 gas gun accurately is a a wonderful fulfilling challenge. They are finicky and will let you know when you forget the fundamentals, and will reward you when you do.

If you don't reload, start, I am still load developing, but am working with a load now that my rifle seems to really enjoy.

If you don't reload, be prepared to try a bunch of different match loads, I tried a bunch until my rifle proved to like hornady match 168s the best ( I'm a 300 yard shooter in my little state). My buddy has an Acc, his loves Hornady black amax.

Watch for pressure signs, there were some loads my SR25 did not like and actually popped or flattened primers.

Your rifle will speak to you when it needs to be cleaned.

Don't be afraid to ask questions in the knights forum. Knights reps are active on this site and a great help.

The mams is worth the money.

I have owned Larues, JPs, and Sr25s. My ECC is my favorite rifle, my favorite of all the other ar10s I have shot, and the most consistently accurate.

Enjoy your new rifle, yes it was a lot of money, but if your experience is anything like mine you will feel it's worth when you shoot it.
Link Posted: 12/20/2017 8:21:58 AM EDT
.9 MOA isn't bad for any gas gun ,but you can probably do better. Not sure what ammo Knights uses to test, but I have found 175 Smk's work very well in my .308 LTR. If you reload you have more options available to you. I have found with most factory match ammo the SD can run in the teens to twenties. Hand loaded ammo will run in the single digits. When you get your SD down it helps to get your groups down below .5 MOA. I built a SR15 type rifle a while ago and with Federal Match 77gr I was running around 1 MOA five shot groups. After break in and load development that same rifle shoots .6 MOA today.
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