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Posted: 10/19/2021 9:01:03 PM EDT
Largest objective was to develop safe and reliable load with Rocky Mountain Reloading 69-grain bullet.
No accuracy testing was performed. The rifle was simply fired in a manner to avoid striking the chronograph. No target was downrange except the dirt in the berm. General objectives: •Develop reliable loads with TAC and AA2520 powders •Develop reliable loads with 69-grain BTHP Rocky Mountain Reloading (RMR) bullets •Develop reliable loads with 62-grain FMJ Hornady bullets Gun used for testing was AR15 service rifle with White Oak upper. Barrel has about 4000 rounds on it. Observation: •CCI 450 (small rifle magnum) primers are less likely to pierce than the recovered .30 carbine primers from gibrass.com •The current batch of recovered .30 carbine primers (gold color) seem a little less likely to pierce than the previous (silver color) lot •RWS brass is significantly heavier than Lake City brass. •RWS brass processed by Blue Ridge Brass needs to be run through the small-base die before further use. I experienced several instances of the RWS brass failing to go into battery during cycling from the magazine, and which required that I “mortar” the rifle to free the seized cartridge from the chamber. •Velocity differences for a given load, but using different brass(RWS versus Lake City versus Wolf) were insignificant. Notes on seating depth: •Non-cannelure bullets seated to 2.250” overall length •Cannelure bullet (62 Hornady) seated to cannelure Conclusion – the following five loads are good. •77 SMK with 24.2 grains Varget with CCI 450 primer, or Wolf primer •69 RMR with 24.0 grains TAC with CCI 450 primer •69 RMR with 23.5 grains TAC with recovered .30 carbine primer •69 RMR with 25.2 grains AA 2520 with CCI 450 primer or recovered gold-color .30 carbine primer •62 Hornady FMJ with 24.0 grains TAC with CCI 450 primer or recovered gold-color .30 carbine primer Raw data follows 24.2 VARGET MEASURE NOMINAL – 28.4 77-grain Sierra MatchKing LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER (one primer pierced) 2656 2704 2660 2671 2635 average2665 24.2 VARGET MEASURE NOMINAL – 28.4 77-grain Sierra MatchKing LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED CCI 450 PRIMER 2659 2671 2628 2682 2684 2654 2675 2709 2682 2662 average2670 24.2 VARGET MEASURE NOMINAL – 28.4 77-grain Sierra MatchKing WOLF 0X WOLF PRIMER 2659 2675 2663 2682 2647 average2665 ################################# 24.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL – 24.4 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER (one pierced primer) 2839 2822 2809 2836 average2826 23.5 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL – 23.5 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2763 2792 2769-grain 2752 2756 average2766 23.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL – 23.0 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2722 ################################# 24.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL – 24.4 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING RWS ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2830 2789 2808 2831 2817 average2815 23.5 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL – 23.5 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING RWS ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2749 2760 2748 average2752 23.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL - 22.8 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING RWS ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2690 2692 2680 2723 2696 2687 2665 2671 2694 2711 average2690 ################################# 24.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL – 24.4 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING RWS ONCE-FIRED CCI 450 2787 2863 2755 2870 average2818 23.5 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL – 23.5 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING RWS ONCE-FIRED CCI 450 2790 2774 2796 2755 2755 average2774 23.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL - 22.8 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING RWS ONCE-FIRED CCI 450 2687 2665 2671 2694 2711 average2685 ################################# 24.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL – 24.4 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED CCI 450 2839 2853 2792 2802 2796 average2816 23.5 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL – 23.5 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED CCI 450 2777 2800 2763 2777 2744 2775 2723 2739 2739 2734 average2757 23.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL - 22.8 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED CCI 450 2804 2740 2738 2741 2671 average2738 ################################# 25.2 AA 2520 MEASURE NOMINAL – 25.9 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED CCI 450 2832 2841 2828 2842 2832 average2835 24.7 AA 2520 MEASURE NOMINAL – 24.9 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED CCI 450 (2 neck splits) 2683 2737 2744 2762 2722 average2729 24.2 AA 2520 MEASURE NOMINAL - 24.0 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED CCI 450 2679 2678 2672 2678 2667 average2674.8 ################################# 25.2 AA 2520 MEASURE NOMINAL – 25.9 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2847 2847 2852 2866 2848 average2852 24.7 AA 2520 MEASURE NOMINAL – 24.9 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2730 2800 2784 2785 2756 average2771 24.2 AA 2520 MEASURE NOMINAL – 24.0 69-grain ROCKY MOUNTAIN RELOADING LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2710 2734 2748 2698 2676 2673 2672 2709 2734 2690 average2704 ################################# 24.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL - 24.4 62-grain Hornady FMJ LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2781 2821 2805 2780 2792 average2795 24.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL - 24.0 62-grain Hornady FMJ Winchester 1X - 30 Carbine SILVER PRIMER 2697 2706 2696 2697 2678 average2694 23.5 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL - 23.5 62-grain Hornady FMJ LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2726 2723 2712 2708 2654 average2704 23.0 TAC MEASURE NOMINAL- 22.8 62-grain Hornady FMJ LAKE CITY ONCE-FIRED 30 Carbine GOLD PRIMER 2644 2665 2621 2715 average2661 |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[#1]
I believe the TAC load with the RMR 69's could carry a goodly bit MORE powder than was tested today.
One of the largest elements of my focus today was trying to figure out whether the recovered .30 carbine primers can be pushed to the same limits as CCI 450 primers. The .30 carbine primers CANNOT be pushed like the CCI 450's. FWIW, Quickload says you don't hit SAAMI maximum pressure even with a FULL CASE (100% loading density) of TAC using the 69's. - Which would be 26.0 grains and making 57,000 PSI, and 2,900 FPS. SAAMI maxium for 5.56 is 62,366 PSI. I'm not vouching for 26.0 grains TAC with the 69's. Because I have not tested anything that hot. |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[Last Edit: W_E_G]
[#2]
You probably saw my remarks yesterday regarding chronograph testing the 69 RMR with TAC.
The highest I went with powder charge in my testing yesterday was 24.0 grains with the 69 grain bullet. I was getting about 2815 FPS with 24.0 grains. So, is 24.0 grains the “right” load for that bullet? Quickload suggests you can go all the way to 26.0 grains and a slam-full case, and still stay within SAAMI. Note too, Quickload uses 29.89 grains H2O capacity for the calculation. If you measure yourself, or Google, you’ll find that number is a bit low. Many reports of 223/5.56 case capacity indicate at least 30.5 grains H20 capacity. See https://loaddata.com/articles/PDF/BenchTopics%2087.pdf And the old notion about “military brass” has less capacity DOES NOT apply to 223. This notion has been disproven over-and-over again. Military and commercial 223 H2O capacity is the same. Attached File The online resource for RAMSHOT powder lists just 24.4 grains TAC with a Sierra 69 at 61,609 PSI. https://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/WesternPowdersHandloadingGuide8.0_WEB.pdf Attached File That’s a pretty huge difference between Quickload and the RAMSHOT people. I have no way of knowing how the RAMSHOT people came up with their numbers for 5.56 handloads. The RAMSHOT people are also claiming that 24.4 grains TAC with a 69 will give 3,049 FPS. To that I say just this: No. Fucking. Way. There is no way an extra 0.4 grains TAC is going take you from 2815 fps to 3049 fps. No way. The change in velocity yesterday from 23.5 grains TAC to 24.0 grains TAC was an increase in velocity of only about 60 fps. Not 300 fps. Quickload has been pretty good at predicting velocities that match actual chronograph numbers for 223 handloads. If anything, Quickload has predicted higher velocities than actually were obtained – and from that, I would deduce that Quickload’s predicted pressures are higher than actual pressures for a given 223 load. Curiously though, with TAC, Quickload is predicting only 2669 fps with 24.0 grains TAC. Yet the chronograph yesterday told us 24.0 grains TAC was pushing the 69-grain bullet at 2815 fps. Pretty big difference – and on the heavy side. Which makes me think Quickload’s prediction of 26.0 grains TAC with the 69 is an over-charge. I’m going out tomorrow with TAC and the 69’s and LC 1x-fired brass with CCI 450 primers. I’m going to give 24.0 grains TAC a good accuracy test. I will try 24.5 grains for just a function test. I won’t be using the chronograph, because I find it impossible to shoot at a target, and over the skyscreen-type chronograph without shooting holes in the chronograph device. But, I’m figuring the 24.5 grains to be at about 2875 fps. I’d like to give the 24.5 grains a good accuracy test, but I’m shooting prone with a sling, and I’m testing THREE different uppers. I can’t deliver my best performance prone for more than about 60 shots. I’m going give all I’ve got for a single session to the 24.0 grain load. |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[#3]
Ok sitting at the bar drowning my sorrows after today’s range fukery.
Good news is the 24.0 TAC in a once-fired case prepped to 1.750 with a burr on the mouth is GOOD TO GO with the Rocky Mountain Reloading 69 BTHP. Them bullets shoot good. I shot a bunch of 10-shot strings with different uppers and different scope. Now I gots a solid 200-yard zero for them scopes with the 24TAC69RMR load. All firing done at 200 yards. Sling supported only, with a Creedmoor shooting jacket. For this pic, the upper is a White Oak Armament 5.56 service rifle upper with a 4x Hilux scope. My sight picture is the round target-bull on top of the reticle circle. Trying to center the bull on the little crosshair inside the circle gives me brain spasms. So I just make a two-ball snowman and SEND IT. The target is one of those SHOOT NC splatter targets. The inner yellow circle pretty much conforms to the X-ring for the 200-yard reduced 600-yard target. The next yellow ring is a little small to match the reduced 600 10-ring. That smaller orange ring is the standard 7-inch 10-ring for the normal 200-yard SR target So I’m going along thinking, “Yeah, this gonna be a good one. Firing the rounds from the magazine instead of single-loading. Get to the LAST ROUND, send it, thinking, “Yeah, that’s a good one. Check the spotting scope for bullet impact location. FuuuuuUuuuuUUUUUCCCCCKKKK!!! Way out a 3 o’clock. I got damn sure didn’t see it go there in the sights. Made me so mad, I gave myself a Mulligan, and shot an 11th shot because I couldn’t believe that last-shot-out-of-the-magazine shit. Mulligan 11th shot landed right there in the rest of the knot. Just fugk me. Attached File |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[#4]
I promised I would test an extra half grain of TAC with the 69 RMR bullet.
24.5 grains TAC. Only fired 10 shots. Seems plenty accurate. But noticed the brass on the case head was extruding into the ejector hole on the bolt pretty significantly. Not worth that feature for an extra 60 FPS. This splatter target mimics the standard SR target. X-ring (3 inches) is about same size as 10-ring on reduced 600-yard target. That 7 o’clock shot was first shot. Clicked up a quarter and right a quarter. Going along good. Got to that last shot out of the magazine. Again: FUUUUUuuuuuUUuCCKKK!!! Out at 3 o’clock AGAIN! WHAT is up with this last-shot shit??? I seen that 4 o’clock shot go there. That’s on me. But that widest 3 o’clock shot broke clean as a whistle. Not way out there. Interesting. Attached File |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[#5]
On days like this, I suggest you carry a known “good” load.
Suppose you are having a bad time with test loads. You then get frustrated and would be better off stopping and testing yourself and the gun with some reference ammo. If the reference ammo throws flyers, then we stop and debug the gun or the shooter rather than waste test loads. BTW, four thousand rounds sounds like a pretty high round count if that bbl has been used for rapids in XTC. Are you sure that bbl isn’t toast? |
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[#6]
Barrel length?
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[#7]
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[Last Edit: W_E_G]
[#8]
Shot the 69 RMR again yesterday.
200 yards. Prone with sling. 24.0 TAC Magazine length in RWS case with burr left on the case mouth. I’m getting more comfortable with the snowman sight picture using Hilux 4x scope. I did not disturb the reticle adjustment during the 10-shot string. Used the same dope that I used two days prior to shoot a match with same ammunition on electronic targets. Inner ring on the splatter target is a bit large for x-ring on simulated 600 target. Second ring is a bit small for the simulated 10-ring. I saw the 3 o’clock shot go wide right when I sent it. Blame me. Attached File |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[Last Edit: W_E_G]
[#9]
Speaking of shooting electronic targets.
Shooting the 69 RMR’s Saturday in a 200-yard match. I sucked massively on offhand. I believe this is my first true Yahtzee in all these years shooting the highpower game. And maybe it’s not a TRUE Yahtzee - because I didn’t have a miss. Though not for lack of trying! When I shot that 5, I was amazed it even made the scoring rings.what a terrible shot that was. The incredible irony was that I won the “Cold Bore X” award. Yes, first shot offhand was an X - as the reticle went screaming across the target as I yanked the trigger. “If it is downrange, it will be shot” is actually a thing. I was trying to shoot the UBR stock fully extended in offhand position because I recently had good results shooting scope offhand with a normal A2 stock. Was NOT working for me with the UBR fully extended with my offhand position. My face wanted to rest in the gap between the cheekrest and the extendo-butt. Caused me to have a few true spaz shots. And had lousy zero to boot. Attached File I kind of got my shit together for slow-fire prone. But made the mistake of using a newish magazine for that stage. Which is ironic since each shot must be separately loaded for that stage. My old worn-out aluminum follower mag (with useful divot in the follower hump) allows me to carefully place each round atop the follower, and the ass end of the round will remain against the divot in a substantially forward position, greatly reducing the chance of me “crunching” the round when I trip the bolt release. The slick new follower kept allowing the cartridge to move into a perilous position during closing of the bolt. I crunched two rounds during that stage. I removed the crunched rounds from the gun, and reloaded with an undamaged round. But all that cussing and squirming in order to clear the crunched round caused me to bollocks my position enough that when I sent each round, each went wide left, costing me an 8 and a 9 (shots 13 and 20). Curses! But those 69 RMR’s with 24.0 TAC out of a burr-mouthed Lake City once-fired case did their part when I wasn’t making nut-behind-the-butt mistakes. Attached File |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#10]
Not sure what to conclude. The 200 yard targets posted early look kind of meh. But the later 600 reduced target looks better, especially when discounting the 2 called fliers. I'm not too worried about Shot #2, that can happen as you and the gun are settling into a prone string, so not reading too much into that. As to the group, well - I will say, you can get that or better with Hornady 55 FMJ... at 200. But, the 69's are appealing because those are 300 yard bullets, where the difference will matter. And maybe even 500 and 600 yard, in a pinch.
As to velocity consistency, in my experience with Service Rifle out to 300 yards, it's mostly irrelevant and generally not a good coorelation to actual on-paper accuracy. Despite common wisdom. Mostly because an HBAR .223 barrel just doesn't whip, so it doesn't really matter where you are on the whip node when it leaves. And at that distance, drop differential is irrelevant. At 600 it can matter a little, in the extreme, and especially if it's a lighter bullet like this one. But even then, on-paper accuracy is more important than velocity consistency, or even absolute velocity; has been my own experience. Now if the plan is to run this through a 16" skinny, that can be a different story, in my own experience at least. Appologies if this is unwelcome input from the peanut gallery sir! Thanks for the posts, looking forward to your continued updates as you go. |
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[#11]
You’re right about all that.
I have my good days and not-so-good days. I get up in the morning and just try to make it to the end of the day without too many bad things happening. I have fair luck at that. Most days. |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[#12]
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[Last Edit: W_E_G]
[#13]
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[#14]
Had one target to brag about today. That 5 o'clock shot was #4. I called it low. Seems like I often call a shot simply low, and actually it comes up between 3 o'clock and 5 o'clock. I guess when I see the gun dip, the mechanics of it carries it also to the east. Load is 25.2 grains Accurate Arms 2520 and 69 RMR bullet. Lake City once-fired case with trimming-burr still on inside and outside of case mouth. CCI 450 magnum primer. White Oak basic service rifle upper (no fancy-pants barrel) with around 1000 rounds on it. 200 yards as usual. Prone, sling-support only. HiLux XTC $400 scope 4x power. Aiming point is short-snowman. Put the black bull on top of the reticle circle. Close my eyes and jerk the trigger.
Attached File |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
[#15]
Also had a decent target shooting the AA2520 powder with the Hornady 62-grain FMJ. Lighter load than the 69-grain load I just mentioned. Running one full grain less powder (24.2 grains) here. I didn't touch the knobs on the preceding target. I played with a few clicks on this one. First three shots were below the "waterline." So I put on one click up. And I shot the tallest high 9 out the top. So I took that click off. Finished the 10-shot string with that second 9. Still pretty decent for bulk FMJ bullets.
Attached File |
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775 |
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