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Posted: 9/4/2017 10:21:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gene_wi]
Howdy Folks
I have a cunundrum that has been bugging me. I have an AR-10 type rifle in .308 that I have been using to shoot local PRS matches this season. I routinely shoot this rifle out to 500 yards. Rifle is zeroed at 100 yards and is capable of sub MOA accuracy. Now here is my problem: the rifle shoots consistently to the right of point of aim at distance. Approximately 0.1 mil per 100 yards. So at 500 yards I have to hold 0.5 mil left, at 800 I am holding about 1 mil left, at 1000 it's almost 1.5 mil. This hold is independent of wind, and seems to be independent of shooting position. Shooting the rifle on paper I can see a small drift of the group to the right at 200 and 300 yards. Here is what I tested so far. Optic and mount. I have tried 3 different scopes and mounts, the problem is reproducible. Muzzle device, tried 2 different ones, problem is reproducible. Ammo, tried several brands/loads the problem is reproducible. So I am starting to think that there is a misalignment of the receiver rail and barrel on this rifle. Would this problem produce the result I am seeing. If not what can be the cause? Has anyone seen this effect? Thanks |
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Posted: 9/4/2017 10:38:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Sounds plausible to me that the barrel axis is not in line with the scope axis. Did you build the rifle or was it factory built? You may be able to tear it down and "True up" the upper receiver and then reinstall the barrel.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/4/2017 10:47:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Doesn't rifling rotation cause drift at distance?
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Posted: 9/4/2017 10:48:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Hey Gene - great shooting with you Saturday! (This is Sam)
I was thinking about this a little after hearing you talking about it with Greg. I'm really confused how this could be happening. The only way the mechanics of it make sense is if your scope/mount/receiver isn't exactly vertically over the bore, but I don't know how that could happen on a scale large enough to cause a mil and a half at a grand. I don't have the know-how to back calculate how far off the alignment would have to be, unfortunately. Have you tried removing and remounting the barrel? Just in case there's something messed up there? I'm really at a loss. |
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Posted: 9/4/2017 10:50:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Barrel is canted in the upper receiver I bet. The face of the receiver can be lapped.
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Posted: 9/4/2017 10:57:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sinister]
[#5]
It is a common phenomena that affects projos fired from a rifled barrel (rifles, mortars, howitzers, cannon, etc.).
A GI M1 firing 175-grain 30-06 bullets from a 1-12 right-hand twist barrel, zeroed at 100 yards, will place its bullets about 1 minute (ten inches, or approximately .3 mils) to the right of the X on a GI/NRA target at 1,000 yards. The faster the barrel twist (say a 1-10) the more right drift. Here's a scientific paper that will put you to sleep but explains the ballistics of 30-06 cartridges: 30-cal Bullet Science |
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Posted: 9/4/2017 11:20:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gene_wi]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jblomenberg16:
Sounds plausible to me that the barrel axis is not in line with the scope axis. Did you build the rifle or was it factory built? You may be able to tear it down and "True up" the upper receiver and then reinstall the barrel. |
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Posted: 9/4/2017 11:23:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sdman11890:
Hey Gene - great shooting with you Saturday! (This is Sam) I was thinking about this a little after hearing you talking about it with Greg. I'm really confused how this could be happening. The only way the mechanics of it make sense is if your scope/mount/receiver isn't exactly vertically over the bore, but I don't know how that could happen on a scale large enough to cause a mil and a half at a grand. I don't have the know-how to back calculate how far off the alignment would have to be, unfortunately. Have you tried removing and remounting the barrel? Just in case there's something messed up there? I'm really at a loss. Nice shooting with you guys. I think I will talk with the rifle maker first, and depending on that..start dissecting the rife over the winter. Gene |
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Posted: 9/4/2017 11:27:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister:
It is a common phenomena that affects projos fired from a rifled barrel (rifles, mortars, howitzers, cannon, etc.). A GI M1 firing 175-grain 30-06 bullets from a 1-12 right-hand twist barrel, zeroed at 100 yards, will place its bullets about 1 minute (ten inches, or approximately .3 mils) to the right of the X on a GI/NRA target at 1,000 yards. The faster the barrel twist (say a 1-10) the more right drift. Here's a scientific paper that will put you to sleep but explains the ballistics of 30-06 cartridges: 30-cal Bullet Science I thought about spin drift, and it no doubt contributes to what I see. But the effect I am seeing is simply to big to be spin drift alone. |
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Posted: 9/4/2017 11:28:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gene_wi]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chewbacca:
Barrel is canted in the upper receiver I bet. The face of the receiver can be lapped. |
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Posted: 9/5/2017 8:00:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#10]
What happened with your tall target test? This should have shown up there.
You are dialing for drops? Athlon or Nikon scope....or worse? |
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Posted: 9/5/2017 8:55:41 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
What happened with your tall target test? This should have shown up there. You are dialing for drops? Athlon or Nikon scope....or worse? Rifle had the same pattern of shooting to the right with a Leupold mk4, and viper pst. |
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Posted: 9/5/2017 9:03:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TeeRex]
[#12]
More than likely scope cant. Either mounted canted, or you are inducing cant. Run a tall target test.
Spin drift just for arguments sake is going to be around .5 and thats allowing for some error either way at 1k. If a barrel isn't square it will still zero out. Optics work with angles, and almost all barrels have some curve in them. If that was the case people would struggle a lot. The razor can be hard to get level sometimes because of the turrets protruding below the flat bottom. If you're not running a level that would help, but the level needs to be level with the reticle. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/5/2017 9:05:49 AM EDT
[#13]
Simple question, do you have any kind of bubble level to keep you from canting the rifle? Even a 20$ one can fix shooter error.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/5/2017 9:06:26 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TeeRex:
More than likely scope cant. Either mounted canted, or you are inducing cant. Run a tall target test. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/7/2017 11:50:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ricomnc]
[#15]
Error stacking.
Spin Drift + Coriolis + Cant + Parallax + Shooter (hold, shoulder, trigger, eye-relief/fatique, cheek weld) Still, 1.5 mil at 1000 still seems a bit on the large side. Edit: FWIW strelok tells me spin drift + Coriolis from recent session conditions is about .3 mil at 1000 yds for 168g FGGM. |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 12:19:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Precession
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Posted: 9/7/2017 12:34:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Desert_AIP:
Precession |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 1:03:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#18]
If your barrel was crooked or bent OP it should be the same angle all the way to 1000 yards.
It would work the same as a scope-bore offset. Zeroed at 100 then angling off at a steady angle past 100. So if you are .3mil left at 300 yards you should still be .3mil left at 3000 yards. While I doubt any shooter would try to save $30 and skip the level..... Cant rule of thumb: Elevation +1mil x sin of cant angle 1000yards 11mil x sin 8°(.139)= 1.53mil windage. Hmmm. 500yards 4.4mil x sin8°= 0.6mil windage hmm. |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 1:45:34 PM EDT
[#19]
If this is shooter error? Why does it seem so consistent?
When I shoot my friends bolt gun at 1k, I don't have this problem. |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 1:49:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
If your barrel was crooked or bent OP it should be the same angle all the way to 1000 yards. It would work the same as a scope-bore offset. Zeroed at 100 then angling off at a steady angle past 100. So if you are .3mil left at 300 yards you should still be .3mil left at 3000 yards. This is driving me nuts since it is a recurring problem for me with this rifle. If this is shoter error what can I be doing wrong. |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 1:56:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gene_wi:
If this is shoter error what can I be doing wrong. While I doubt any shooter would try to save $30 and skip the level..... Cant rule of thumb: Elevation +1mil x sin of cant angle 1000yards 11mil x sin 8°(.139)= 1.53mil windage. Hmmm. 500yards 4.4mil x sin8°= 0.6mil windage hmm. Are you canting, the rule of thumb math seems close 8° isn't much. This is 6° 
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:03:54 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gene_wi:
Ok I see what you are saying. I drew this out on paper and it makes sense. This is driving me nuts since it is a recurring problem for me with this rifle. If this is shoter error what can I be doing wrong. Do a tall target test first. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:03:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Scott-S6]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gene_wi:
Current optic on the rifle is a Vortex razor HD gen2 3-18. No issues with the scope tracking. I did not see evidence of rifle shooting right on a tracking test, But a more extensive one is in my future. Yes I am dialing in the elevation. Rifle had the same pattern of shooting to the right with a Leupold mk4, and viper pst. |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:05:10 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
From my edit above: While I doubt any shooter would try to save $30 and skip the level..... Cant rule of thumb: Elevation +1mil x sin of cant angle 1000yards 11mil x sin 8°(.139)= 1.53mil windage. Hmmm. 500yards 4.4mil x sin8°= 0.6mil windage hmm. Are you canting, the rule of thumb math seems close 8° isn't much. This is 6° http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1548/24471990136_b25576934d_m.jpg |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:09:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scott-S6:
Try using holdover rather than dialing the elevation (or, as suggested, a tall target test). That the amount of deviation increases with longer range means that something is changing in the setup as you go to further range. Diallin in the elevation is something that you're changing. A bad scope is out as he said it did it with two others. |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:13:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gene_wi:
Ok so the math makes sense. So if I understand you correctly, the way I am shouldering the rifle produces a reproducible cant? Seems plausible. A level mounted on the rifle or rings can help me be mindful of this error? If you don't have a level to confirm it may be hard to see the cant. Many will call it blasphemy but the rifle doesn't really need to be perfectly level just the scope does. |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:14:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
The only thing that really fits is rifle cant. A bad scope is out as he said it did it with two others. I will do more range testing this month. Any recommendations for a rifle mounted level? |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:19:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gene_wi:
I shoot at the same range as the Vortex QC guy, and the company is in my state. The scope is fine. I will do more range testing this month. Any recommendations for a rifle mounted level? I have 3 of the $30-$35 Vortex levels they aren't the prettiest but they will easily keep you under half a degree cant. Whatever you get make sure it is a level that mounts to the scope tube itself rather than rings or rail. On the tube, that scope will always be level you can move it from rifle to rifle without ever using the plumb line again....and you can cant your rifle with a plumb scope. |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:19:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
Many will call it blasphemy but the rifle doesn't really need to be perfectly level just the scope does. The Vortex PST I had on the rifle was aligned in the mount using a badger ordnance leveling tool, vortex did that for me. The Razor I have on the rifle now was mounted as follows. I leveled the upper with a machinist level. I ran a plumb line, and mount the scope true to that line in the leveled upper. |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:26:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gene_wi:
Vortex QC guy told me the same thing. His recommendation was leveling the scope to the "shooter" not the rifle. The Vortex PST I had on the rifle was aligned in the mount using a badger ordnance leveling tool, vortex did that for me. The Razor I have on the rifle now was mounted as follows. I leveled the upper with a machinist level. I ran a plumb line, and mount the scope true to that line in the leveled upper. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gene_wi:
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Many will call it blasphemy but the rifle doesn't really need to be perfectly level just the scope does. The Vortex PST I had on the rifle was aligned in the mount using a badger ordnance leveling tool, vortex did that for me. The Razor I have on the rifle now was mounted as follows. I leveled the upper with a machinist level. I ran a plumb line, and mount the scope true to that line in the leveled upper. I made this drawing a while back to help me visualize what's happening . So with my 2" mounting hight with the rifle at 7° I would have 1/4moa windage add all the way out. 
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:47:38 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
Depending on how much you cant the rifle under the level scope and how high the scope is over bore you will add some windage past 100. It will be a constant that can be compensated for. I made this drawing a while back to help me visualize what's happening . So with my 2" mounting hight with the rifle at 7° I would have 1/4moa windage add all the way out. http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/glock2027/rifle%20cant_zpsw3v6oqt1.png This could certainly account for the bolt gun vs gas gun discrepancy in my shooting. Yes? |
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Posted: 9/7/2017 2:53:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gene_wi:
Looking at your drawing it would seem that having a taller mount would amplify the cant error? On an AR10 the height over bore is 3.5". This could certainly account for the bolt gun vs gas gun discrepancy in my shooting. Yes? But with this it will be a constant amount from after zero range to infinity. Of course that is perfect world in that drawing, like sighting a laser with a scope.Real world bullets might impact 1/2moa left or right of where the barrel is pointing anyway from harmonics or whatever. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 9/10/2017 10:56:05 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TeeRex:
More than likely scope cant. Either mounted canted, or you are inducing cant. Run a tall target test. Spin drift just for arguments sake is going to be around .5 and thats allowing for some error either way at 1k. If a barrel isn't square it will still zero out. Optics work with angles, and almost all barrels have some curve in them. If that was the case people would struggle a lot. The razor can be hard to get level sometimes because of the turrets protruding below the flat bottom. If you're not running a level that would help, but the level needs to be level with the reticle. At 100 yards place a large piece of paper with a single 1" dot. Crank your elevation to both extremes and a few in between and take a single shot at each stop. If your scope isn't canted all your shots will be in a perfectly plumb line, check with a weighted string. If they are a little diagonal you need to recheck your scope and level. |
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NJ, USA
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Posted: 9/11/2017 10:57:17 PM EDT
[#34]
just for giggles if your shooting a standard A@ stock you can try an adj stock pad that can be adj for cant.
My bolt rifle i always cant and have my stock adj for it which levels the rifle out. My maten sits good so isnt needed. |
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Posted: 9/22/2017 10:17:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gene_wi]
[#35]
So... I am just about certain it's scope cant
 . Shame on me. I will upload pics once I get a chance.
Leveled the rifle using a machinist level. Shined a light through the scope, projecting the reticle on the wall, next to a plumb line. Initial observation, was a couple degrees of cant. Re-aligned the scope. Here is the new level image.  Attached FileWas at the range on Sunday and did a tall target test up to 5 mils. I did not observe any, right hand drift. Will be out to test at 1 K next week. |
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Posted: 10/20/2017 2:45:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Major Bummer.
Had a chance to get out to the big range today. I remounted the scope, had a bubble level, and verified that I was not canting the rifle by aligning the reticle to a know perpendicular post. Same exact damn thing, I am ~0.1 mil per 100 yards to the right. 0.5 mil at ~550 yards and ~1.0 mil at 950 yards. What gives. My range baddie shot the rifle, and had the exact same results. So its not the shooter. I shot my bolt gun at the same ranges, and was on target at both distances. An earlier tall target test at 100 yards was satisfactory, and did not show any evidence of the scope not tracking. Back to square one. Very frustrated by this. |
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Posted: 10/21/2017 10:54:02 AM EDT
[#37]
Something has to be canted, could even be the reticle in the scope, but something somewhere in your set up is not tracking where it should be.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/21/2017 11:13:46 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TeeRex:
Something has to be canted, could even be the reticle in the scope, but something somewhere in your set up is not tracking where it should be. The funny part is that if this were my rifle, I probably wouldn't notice anything as I doubt I am a 0.1 mil (1/3 MOA) shooter!!! 
Last but not least - if the unexplainable deviation is rock solid consistent, just build it into the ballistic tables for that rifle and then go out and shoot stuff! Some wise individual once told me that "A stupid solution isn't stupid if it works!"
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FM, USA
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Posted: 10/21/2017 11:28:06 AM EDT
[#39]
Coriolis Effect. The world is turning beneath you while the bullet flies to the target.
In the Northern Hemisphere, the bullet will always drift to the right as seen by the shooter. Read up and learn: https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/external-ballistics-the-coriolis-effect-6-theory-section/ |
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Posted: 10/21/2017 12:14:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MirrorMirror:
Coriolis Effect. The world is turning beneath you while the bullet flies to the target. In the Northern Hemisphere, the bullet will always drift to the right as seen by the shooter. Read up and learn: https://loadoutroom.com/thearmsguide/external-ballistics-the-coriolis-effect-6-theory-section/ |
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FM, USA
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Posted: 10/21/2017 12:25:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MirrorMirror]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TeeRex:
No, that does not matter enough to even discern at those distances. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TeeRex:
No, that does not matter enough to even discern at those distances. Here’s an example of error due to Coriolis effect: firing the same .308 175gr bullet at 2700fps muzzle velocity, from a latitude of 45° in the Northern Hemisphere, the deflection at 1000yds will be of 3in to right. At the North Pole, where the effect is maximum, the deflection will be a little more than four inches. The deflection will be the same in the Southern Hemisphere, but it will be to the left, instead. However, he's describing an error of up to 1.5 mils at 1000 yards. Since a mil is "one thousandth of one of those", that would be an error of 1.5 yards at 1000 yards range. Coriolis effect ALONE is not enough to account for that error. There is apparently another factor in play. I'm not saying that isn't the case, but if you are into precision shooting you must know about the Coriolis effect and how it affects your shooting. |
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Posted: 10/21/2017 12:35:30 PM EDT
[#42]
It really doesn't matter at 100 yards yards shooting most common calibers. a 1mph wind moves the bullet more. Yes it is real an has an effect, but it is extremely minimal and not something people even worry about during match conditions.
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Posted: 10/21/2017 1:04:57 PM EDT
[#43]
It's got to be in the receiver to the barrel mating surface. He's reproduced this error with three different optics. I wonder what mounting the barrel in a lathe and truing it up reveals when you insert a tight range rod in the bore and measuring the run out yields? Only quick solution I know is what the above poster suggested and that factoring in the error on your range solutions. To bad someone can't loan the OP an upper close by and put his optic on it and just see what that will do?
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Posted: 10/21/2017 1:16:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sparkyD:
It's got to be in the receiver to the barrel mating surface. He's reproduced this error with three different optics. I wonder what mounting the barrel in a lathe and truing it up reveals when you insert a tight range rod in the bore and measuring the run out yields? Only quick solution I know is what the above poster suggested and that factoring in the error on your range solutions. To bad someone can't loan the OP an upper close by and put his optic on it and just see what that will do? |
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Posted: 10/21/2017 3:41:35 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TeeRex:
The problem is optics use angles, and any curvature, wether in the bore or from a mating surface being angled can still be zeroed as long as there is enough travel in an optic to do so. The bullet won't continue to move on that axis at an exponential rate. Almost all barrels have a small amount of curvature in them. Most custom gun builders time it to 12:00, but off the shelf rifles it can point any direction and doesn't matter. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TeeRex:
Originally Posted By sparkyD:
It's got to be in the receiver to the barrel mating surface. He's reproduced this error with three different optics. I wonder what mounting the barrel in a lathe and truing it up reveals when you insert a tight range rod in the bore and measuring the run out yields? Only quick solution I know is what the above poster suggested and that factoring in the error on your range solutions. To bad someone can't loan the OP an upper close by and put his optic on it and just see what that will do? |
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Posted: 10/21/2017 4:56:00 PM EDT
[#46]
Thank you for all the thoughtful replies.
I am thinking this has to be somekind of a barrel defect. It's just too damb reproducible to be anything else. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/21/2017 7:56:13 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gene_wi:
Thank you for all the thoughtful replies. I am thinking this has to be somekind of a barrel defect. It's just too damb reproducible to be anything else. |
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Posted: 11/8/2017 12:31:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gene_wi]
[#48]
I am currently trying to arrange for a friend with a machine shop, to throw the upper on a CMM machine to check the geometry.
While I wait. I spoke with a friend that recently finished a .308 AR-10 build. He observed the same effect with his rifle that I see on mine, I.E. round tend to impact right of POA at distance. Also there seems to be at least 2 other post online specifically about .308 AR10s throwing rounds to the right, reproducibly. This has me thinking, could the problem be as simple as the rifle being over-gassed? Would an over gassed AR upper throw rounds to the right, since that is where the ejection port is? -Gene EDIT: The same day that I last shot the AR10, I also ran a 5.56 ar out to 600 yards. The 5.56 rifle is tad over-gassed as evident by the ejection pattern, I did notice that the POI for that rifle was also to the right of point of POA at 600. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 11/10/2017 8:48:36 PM EDT
[#49]
I had the same issue with my LR308 build. I checked my receiver face by setting it on a machined flat surface and inserted shims to determine the approximate runout of the face. It was out by 0.008" and the short side matched up with the direction my POI was drifting at farther distances. The company replaced my receiver with a new one. I checked the new one and got 0.003" of runout on the face so I ended up making a mandrel to hold the receiver in my lathe and turned the face true. I have been extremely pleased with the results. I think you would definitely benefit from having your receiver trued by your machinist friend for increased accuracy as well as fixing your alignment issues.
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Posted: 11/11/2017 2:22:36 PM EDT
[#50]
If the CMM doesn't work out, anyone with a good lathe or mill should be able to check that face for square.
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