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Posted: 12/17/2018 4:50:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
Cross post, but not getting any bites on Industry forum. I will leave this here a bit before I go to GD for the "experts".  
My PSA .308 has never shot tighter than a 3" group at 100Y. I fired both M80 ball and my 168gr SMK handloads. M80 through my Remington LTR will put ten in right at an inch, and my handloads will put them all in the same hole. Leupold LRT and Larue mount are both tight and well proven. Optics were previously mounted on a tackdriver Remington Sendero. Barrel nut is tight. What barrels are compatible with this format? I would rather buy a barrel from a top name manufacturer than send this in for any evaluation. Is this a Gen II? No slight on PSA. I bought a cheap rifle and got expected results.
eta: I would consider changing the entire upper if I knew what would fit that generation of lower. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/17/2018 5:06:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thehun06]
[#1]
Is the upper factory PSA or did you put the barrel in?
M80 ball is spec'd to run 1.6-2MOA so if you aren't getting that out of the barrel...I would just call PSA up and see if it is a full factory build... |
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Posted: 12/17/2018 5:13:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#2]
It was a factory upper from PSA. I changed it to a Midwest barrel nut and fore end.
I also mentioned hand loads which are copies of 168gr SMK match rounds. I typically get 1" groups with M80 ball out of my Remington LTR, which may not be normal, but it is photographically documented and witnessed.  Is there any reason these or match rounds wouldn't group out of the PSA barrel? I am assuming it is a cheap barrel and that is why I would like to change it out.
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Posted: 12/17/2018 5:18:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CA_TX-Cop]
[#3]
I'd try some Gold Medal Match and see what kind of group you get from that, not all barrels like the same ammo.
I have a bolt gun that hated everything I tried to put through it, and then after pulling my hair out I finally tried GMM and the group tightened up to less than 1 MOA. I don't handload for it though. |
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Posted: 12/17/2018 5:35:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#4]
I have 168 GMM and my hand loads shoot identical through my Remington LTR. They are near identical loads, recently chronographed. I had one unlabeled mag at the range last Saturday and that was probably GMM.
I will probably take it out one more time and do some worked up step-loads to see if there is any sweet spot. I will be sure to take some factory GMM for a baseline. I will try a few 5 shot groups with 175HPBT too. I don't mind burning some ammo and testing the Labradar, but I think my barrel just isn't going to get me there. It shoots worse than any rifle I own. I would be more optimistic if the groups were in the 2" range. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 12/17/2018 5:37:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Lock time differences between an AR pattern and bolt gun.
Trigger? Wobbly setup? Etc. |
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Posted: 12/17/2018 5:42:18 PM EDT
[#6]
I have the same rifle, 20" stainless heavy havent gotten to group it yet so I am in for this outcome.
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Posted: 12/17/2018 5:57:31 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnSmith6073:
Lock time differences between an AR pattern and bolt gun.
Trigger? Wobbly setup? Etc. Nothing wobbles in this setup. Magpul CTR locks. Shooting on Harris bipod from a 4" thick concrete bench. Superlative Arms adjustable gas block is opened just enough to make it run.
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USA
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Posted: 12/17/2018 8:41:46 PM EDT
[#8]
There is alot of good info on here about the PSAs. At the end of the day it's not a match grade barrel and many recommend swapping with something better, a small price when you look at what we paid for the PA10s.
I too was shooting massive groups with Malaysian ball. I tried the receiver, loctited the barrel in, added an adjustable gas block, and a SF comp. I tested with FGMM and shot a clover leaf, however the gas block was shut off and Indidnt bring a long enough Allen wrenches to adjust that session. Next session I just shot Malysian surplus, but I opened up the gas block. Shoots real smooth, recoil is real slow, I like it. Accuracy was acceptable. Not precision, but for a 5x optic and mil surprised ammo I was prob shooting a 3-4" group (just plinking on a cardboard silhouette at 100 yards, no specific POA). Good luck to you. Tinkering is almost as much fun as shooting them. |
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Posted: 12/17/2018 9:01:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pav56C:
There is alot of good info on here about the PSAs. At the end of the day it's not a match grade barrel and many recommend swapping with something better, a small price when you look at what we paid for the PA10s. It is either that or sell this and buy a Knights or Larue. I would rather spend money on a barrel and ammo, but if I have to go full retard, I am pretty good at that.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 12/17/2018 9:12:44 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wildearp:
This is what I am asking. I want to know what barrel fits my upper. I know that PSA has either two or three generations. I also know there really aren't many standards with the "AR-10" platform. So I need to order a barrel that I can bolt on my gear. It is either that or sell this and buy a Knights or Larue. I would rather spend money on a barrel and ammo, but if I have to go full retard, I am pretty good at that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wildearp:
Originally Posted By Pav56C:
There is alot of good info on here about the PSAs. At the end of the day it's not a match grade barrel and many recommend swapping with something better, a small price when you look at what we paid for the PA10s. It is either that or sell this and buy a Knights or Larue. I would rather spend money on a barrel and ammo, but if I have to go full retard, I am pretty good at that. Good luck! In to see the outcome as a .308 build is on my list. |
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Posted: 12/18/2018 8:57:47 AM EDT
[#11]
None of the PSA-10's I've seen that show up to a class have grouped well, I think I've seen four...
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Posted: 12/18/2018 10:22:33 AM EDT
[#12]
Will any AR-10 barrel fit this upper? Maybe I am assuming this upper is different when it isn't?
I have only looked at McGowen so far. Any others that make nice AR-10 ready barrels? |
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Posted: 12/18/2018 10:35:59 AM EDT
[#13]
Is it the standard PA-10 or the shorter PX-10 (like DPMS gen2)?
A PA-10 Should take any dpms pattern barrel. I've tried swapping lowers between a DPMS and PSA. It worked one way but not the other. I don't remember if it was PSA upper on dpms lower or vise versa. I didn't shoot it though. |
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Posted: 12/18/2018 12:30:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#14]
Standard PA-10 as far as I know. That DPMS pattern is the clue I needed. Would the bolt/carrier group be compatible?
This is looking promising, just gotta check out my gas system and gas block size. Criterion I am looking at the stainless 20" hybrid. Open for other off the shelf ideas/solutions. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 12/18/2018 2:32:00 PM EDT
[#15]
I built my Gen 1 PA-10's using Ballitic Advantage 16" melonite barrels and BA NiB BCGs. They both shoot really well with a variety of handloads/bullet weights.
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Posted: 12/18/2018 2:36:27 PM EDT
[#16]
It's that little red lever above the charging handle. You have to remember to flick it before you shoot.
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Posted: 12/18/2018 6:29:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bendigo78]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wildearp:
Standard PA-10 as far as I know. That DPMS pattern is the clue I needed. Would the bolt/carrier group be compatible? This is looking promising, just gotta check out my gas system and gas block size. Criterion I am looking at the stainless 20" hybrid. Open for other off the shelf ideas/solutions. *ETA Looks like the 20 uses a .75 gas block and rifle length gas tube. |
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Posted: 12/18/2018 9:17:57 PM EDT
[#18]
Actually just had a 20" delivered today. Hopefully get out with it over the next few weeks and see how it does. Try some heavier weight bullets. Heard they like the 175/178 weight better but will see.
As touched upon though, do you have other large frame semi autos you shoot well? They are a diffeeent animal than a bolt gun or even an AR15. A lot of mass moving and needing to be worked correctly in form and follow through. Not insulting your shooting but have seen it before where people buy a large AR and have issues coming from a bolt gun. |
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Posted: 12/18/2018 9:43:53 PM EDT
[#19]
For the criterion, is the salt bath nitride always chrome lined and not a stainless barrel or can you get a stainless barrel in black? Its confusing as to what your getting on that website or im just stupid, either way anyone know?
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Posted: 12/19/2018 10:17:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#20]
You can find out more info about Criterion on Brownells than the manufacture website. They have a black stainless barrel for $303, the regular stainless is $288. I was torn between a 20" stainless or an 18" black stainless. Both are button rifled and hand lapped. 20 has rifle length gas, 18 has carbine. Both have LR118 chambers. I know my PSA chamber was tight because my 168gr SMK loads were .010 over SAAMI, some a bit longer, so the LR118 is a good thing for me. I had a few rounds that would not allow the PSA bolt to close fully, that would chamber smoothly in my Remington. I have been shooting these loads for ten years.
(Criterion also sells chrome lined chrome moly barrels) I actually called Criterion to discuss fit and headspace. Good people there, and they said they had a lifetime warranty and would not leave me hanging. If I have any fitment problem or headspace problem, send it in and they will make it right. They said they would headspace the bolt, charge some time if needed, and charge cost for a Fulton or DPMS bolt if mine would not headspace. So, I went with the $288 20" Criterion plain stainless, threaded, and bought a $15 rifle gas tube. My Superlative .750 gas block will fit. All of this from Brownells 10% off and free shipping is $273. If it bolts in and headspaces OK, this is a cheap enough fix, and I don't mind wrenching on guns a bit. Anyone need a PSA barrel to break the ice on their stock pond?
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Posted: 12/19/2018 10:20:24 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
Actually just had a 20" delivered today. Hopefully get out with it over the next few weeks and see how it does. Try some heavier weight bullets. Heard they like the 175/178 weight better but will see. As touched upon though, do you have other large frame semi autos you shoot well? They are a diffeeent animal than a bolt gun or even an AR15. A lot of mass moving and needing to be worked correctly in form and follow through. Not insulting your shooting but have seen it before where people buy a large AR and have issues coming from a bolt gun. |
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Posted: 12/19/2018 10:25:21 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
Actually just had a 20" delivered today. Hopefully get out with it over the next few weeks and see how it does. Try some heavier weight bullets. Heard they like the 175/178 weight better but will see. As touched upon though, do you have other large frame semi autos you shoot well? They are a diffeeent animal than a bolt gun or even an AR15. A lot of mass moving and needing to be worked correctly in form and follow through. Not insulting your shooting but have seen it before where people buy a large AR and have issues coming from a bolt gun. Which 20" did you buy? |
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Posted: 12/19/2018 4:41:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wildearp: No other large frames semis, but I was shooting my Larue Stealth .223 and my M15 Armalite right beside it. Honestly, this is why I put off shopping for a barrel this long, I was just thinking the accuracy issue was just me. I went right from the Rem LTR to the PSA, and then the Larue. The results were pretty telling. I didn't photograph the groups, because the PSA shots were pretty embarrassing. The PSA also has a 16" barrel, and I hope that wasn't part of the problem. I guess that is why I picked a 20" this time. Which 20" did you buy? Will have to get out and see how it shoots. |
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Posted: 12/19/2018 6:16:36 PM EDT
[#24]
I gotta ask, how many rounds through the PSA barrel ?
And do you have access to a bore scope ? Yes PSA's are DPMS pattern.. and a Criterion is a excellent choice, IMHO. I would also suggest you true / lap the upper receiver face, and Loctite 690 the barrel in. No every one does this... but it sure as h.e. double hockey sticks has worked very well for me. Couple of small things... is your ejection port door retaining rod long enough ? MI sells a slightly longer one. And try shooting off bags... I shoot better off bags then a bipod. Make sure you BCG isn't banging your lower receiver extension. And make sure your GB isn't clear up against the barrels shoulder... PSA seems to use the same barrel for both handguard styles... which means they leave slightly extra room for the USGI type handguard mount. |
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Posted: 12/19/2018 7:45:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bfoosh06:
I gotta ask, how many rounds through the PSA barrel ? And do you have access to a bore scope ? Yes PSA's are DPMS pattern.. and a Criterion is a excellent choice, IMHO. I would also suggest you true / lap the upper receiver face, and Loctite 690 the barrel in. No every one does this... but it sure as h.e. double hockey sticks has worked very well for me. Couple of small things... is your ejection port door retaining rod long enough ? MI sells a slightly longer one. And try shooting off bags... I shoot better off bags then a bipod. Make sure you BCG isn't banging your lower receiver extension. And make sure your GB isn't clear up against the barrels shoulder... PSA seems to use the same barrel for both handguard styles... which means they leave slightly extra room for the USGI type handguard mount. I will look for my Zap-a-gap which is a similar product to 690 for bearing race locking. I know that stuff works after having to remove my 10-22 barrel for threading. It didn't want to let go. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 12:09:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wildearp:
I have about a hundred rounds through it. No bore scope. Port door is an aftermarket type with retained detents rather than a rod. The rod was falling out when I installed the MI rail. I didn't see the banging issues that others saw. My rifle was over gassed, so I assume my gas block is in the right place. I will look for my Zap-a-gap which is a similar product to 690 for bearing race locking. I know that stuff works after having to remove my 10-22 barrel for threading. It didn't want to let go. I polish the the gas key's entrance to help mitigate that and make sure it isn't being quirky... and move the GB off the shoulder.. The SLR dimpling tool helps assure perfect alignment. And has always been away from the barrels shoulder. Sometimes those little spaces add up. And if you are going with a Criterion... Watch these videos... ( especially the Truing / lapping the receiver face one ) https://criterionbarrels.com/media/accurizing-the-ar-15-video-series/ Ultimately , and for me, money spent now on various tools , will be money saved via the improved precision. ( Less ammo fired trying to make the barrel shoot well ) PTG ( Pacific Tool and Gauge ) sells a Large Frame AR lapping tool.. ain't cheap.. BUT , well worth it. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 5:31:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#27]
Found a Wheeler lapping kit on Amazon. Probably worth the $25.
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Posted: 12/20/2018 7:07:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06]
[#28]
Quote HistoryThose tend to be a looser fit into the receiver, if you use it, I would wrap some scotch tape or such around the shank to limit the sway even just a few wraps will help keep it more "true"... just sayin' ... the PTG is "ya better lube that shank" before using it snug.
A snugger fit helps assure a truer "flat" surface on the receiver face. I also prefer to do it while holding the drill ( on low ) and the upper by my hands... you can feel if it is binding or wobbling much better then in a vise. I butt the end of the drill against my chest so when I pull the upper onto the lapping compound... all of the movement is a more straight line.. holding the drill by the handle only would make the Wheeler ( looser fitting ) not be parallel with the bore axis. Again if the Wheeler is loose... shim with something to make a better fit in the upper,,, and low speeds Check your work as you go... you will see one side or the other "polishing" before the other. After viewing the progress... it doesn't take long to wonder how much a "non-flat" face might throw a shoot or two ( after heating up, we have all heard that metallic "tink" ) .... usually from that really good group..
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Posted: 12/21/2018 12:32:22 PM EDT
[#29]
I will take a look at the PTG. Is there a part number I should look for or will it be obvious?
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Posted: 12/22/2018 2:12:17 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wildearp:
I will take a look at the PTG. Is there a part number I should look for or will it be obvious? |
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Posted: 1/6/2019 3:30:23 PM EDT
[#31]
So here it is with the 20" Criterion with M118 Chamber Hybrid coutour barrel. I lapped the upper receiver face, good suggestion putting tape around the Sinclair tool. It took three goes at it to get it flat. I used loctite 620 because I am a glutton for punishment. I could take the bare bolt and chamber a match round, so I should be able to at least shoot it, even if I am not able to check headspace. I checked before assembling it. Gas block hangs out just enough where any standard wrench will be able to reach the adjuster. I will keep one in my grip wallet. I centered up the scope so the OCD folks wouldn't attack.
Drove out to the range. Doggone rainout. I had no idea they closed if there was a light rain. Wasted trip. Maybe next weekend. Vodka Tonic with a twist of lime, in case anyone is wondering. 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/6/2019 7:58:33 PM EDT
[#32]
Hey OP a tip on shooting large frame ARs. You need to man handle them. If shooting a nice bolt gun is like gently holding a fine woman then shooting a large frame AR is like wrestling a pissed off boar. Make sure to get a very firm grip, really pull it into your shoulder and load the bipod by leaning into it with your body weight.
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Posted: 1/13/2019 9:43:38 PM EDT
[#33]
Any updates as I have the same barrel with less than optimal results...
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Posted: 1/21/2019 10:09:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#34]
Much better. It was very windy, but here are the 100Y groups from Sunday. First two are M80 ball and the third after scope adjustment is my 168gr SMK Varget load.
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Posted: 1/22/2019 5:27:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#35]
These were 13 rounds with 168gr SMK loaded with Varget, probably before I installed a vibrator on my powder measure and polished the inside. I fired 15, but my barrel was too far away from the chrony for the first shots:
The OAL was so long that the rounds barely fit in the mag. They chambered fine with the LR118 chamber and also worked great in my 700LTR. I will make them SAAMI spec next time.
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Posted: 1/23/2019 1:30:58 AM EDT
[#36]
Very Nice.
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Posted: 1/26/2019 1:06:06 PM EDT
[#37]
I use a minimum of 50 foot pounds, usually closer to 70 foot pounds of torque on large frame barrel nuts.
Mixed headstamp brass destroys groups in .308. There are wide variations between the different manufactures and even worse situation using Lake City or other surplus brass. Weigh your resized, trimmed and unprimed brass and you'll see why. Weights vary from 155 grains (Winchester brand commercial brass) to over 180 grains empty, trimmed and unprimed Lake City. This alone explains why your extreme spreads are 120 fps. Your 2600+ fps load is hor for an 20" barrel. The load closer to 2500 fps is not. |
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Posted: 1/26/2019 1:12:00 PM EDT
[#38]
M80 ball ammo shoots worse the longer the range. Most of it is 2.5 moa +/-.
I used to use it for practice inside 25 to 50 yards because it didn't have a wide dispersion close up. 2.810" is long enough to fit in a magazine and feed and function reliably. It's not going to have an effect, good or bad on groups size trying to eek out a little longer OAL". |
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Posted: 1/27/2019 6:57:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06]
[#39]
As my Criterions broke in, precision increased.
And I don't know if I mentioned this... https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/MI-308-Long-Ejection-Port-Rod-p/mi-308ler.htm Or....https://www.strikeindustries.com/shop/products/ar/upper-parts/ultimate-dust-cover-for-308.html Keep that ejection port rod from moving around. |
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Posted: 1/29/2019 2:41:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#40]
There is no ejection port rod. Mine has springs and detent tips. Ultimate Dust Cover
I bought some Lapua brass on the EE and will make some hand measured loads when I get time. I have had two boxes of factory match ammo in my gun box the last two times at the range and I forgot to use them. I am burning through all of my previous hand loads to break in the barrel and to start out fresh with some new loads. My bench setup is still pretty crummy. I was using a front and rear bag but it was all over the place. I can see now that I probably want to get a solid rest with a built in bag. I couldn't get the front height comfortable. It almost sucks how much more forgiving that a heavy barreled bolt gun is for getting tight groups. Here is last Sunday's group. All were Varget hand loads, same batch. Cold bore shot is the highest at 1:00. There are two groups significant with the rest. Most further out at 1:00 were just bagged. The ones on the shoot n see center are after I grabbed the fore-end and really pulled the rifle into my shoulder. I am going to throw my Tactical Tailor Undude sling in my gunbox and strap in the next time I shoot this. 
My PSA barrel never got close to this. |
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Posted: 1/30/2019 2:51:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06]
[#41]
@wildearp
If you want a incredibly stable front bag ... consider one of these... ( I have a medium.. )https://www.dog-gone-good.com/index.html And the "Wedge" rear bag helps as well... easy to adjust for vertical. I use those to help the "virgin" shooters gain confidence at the bench... ( the bag will SOAK up any remaining recoil ) They are extremely solid, after the rifle is wedged into the upper "v" and the legs are spread apart. Pretty much "clamping" the fore end in place. The tend to sit slightly low.... I put a 1"x8"x 16" fence board under it as a height shim. I have effectively used those out to 1200yds with my 6.5CM on a solid bench. And if you want to keep the bag from slipping ( or even the forearm from rotating ) .... some of that tool box grip liner works great at the bench. Random example. https://www.zoro.com/performance-tool-non-slip-tool-box-drawer-liner-1468/i/G5712108/feature-product?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImcnKj5aW4AIVvh-tBh2-rwdyEAQYASABEgKemfD_BwE |
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USA
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Posted: 2/17/2019 12:56:26 AM EDT
[#42]
So ended up being the barrel after all? I'm also trying to dial my AR10 in and it's not shooting very tight yet. I'm blaming myself first, but need to get back out to the range for more testing.
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Posted: 2/18/2019 1:54:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#43]
Perhaps a combo of barrel and fitment. I lapped the receiver and I installed the Criterion hybrid M118 LR stainless barrel with Loctite 209 between the barrel and receiver.
Keep in mind I shot the old PSA barrel side by side with a 20" Remington LTR, same rounds, same setup, identical glass. With LC match and M80 ball, the Remington made 1" groups and the PSA couldn't hold to 3". As much as I wanted to think it was all me, I tried this several times over a year before I knew there was a problem. This is a ten shot group fired yesterday with the new barrel and mid level Varget loads and 175 SMK slugs. Brass was all LC. I used a tight Mike Miller sling, a Harris bipod, and no rear support. 
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Posted: 2/18/2019 5:35:45 PM EDT
[#44]
I'm sure you would notice, but is the barrel nut bottoming out?
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Posted: 6/10/2019 7:29:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: snakeyes711]
[#45]
I know old thread, but searching about my pa10 turned up this thread. Whats this thing about the ejection port cover rod? I don't get it?
I'd say you should have moved on from sierra bullets for that rifle. With Hornady factory sst superformance 165gr. I was getting 1.2" groups with the 18" SS barrel. So I worked up a load with that, and after switching to varget, I was able to get some crazy groups with the Hornady SSt 165gr bullet with 44gr. at 2560fps.  " />I got some decent groups before testing but here was the groups at 42.5gr, its a big defference.  " />Also lessons learned. I measured my max oal for the chamber, and got 2.893". And the thing is these ssts I'm loading at 7.760"...Yep thats right its over a hundred thou jump. |
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Posted: 6/10/2019 9:42:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By snakeyes711:
I know old thread, but searching about my pa10 turned up this thread. Whats this thing about the ejection port cover rod? I don't get it? In his photo, ( and I didn't look hard enough ) it appeared he "needed" one... and most folks don't even know MI sells it. ( I sure as heck didn't notice until I "needed" it... Lol ) If you look at wildearp's photo... you'll see what I mean. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 3:53:01 PM EDT
[#47]
I have a Strike Industries ejection port cover installed, with retained detent pins, that solves the rod length issues. Nice thing is that I didn't have to disassemble the upper to install the new cover. I just cut the old rod and snapped in the new cover.
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PA, USA
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Posted: 8/22/2019 11:20:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Addicted2Fish]
[#48]
I handload for mine and like others have had very good results with 168 Amax/Zmax and 165gr SST. It sucked with Sierras. It wants what it wants, not what some other rifle wants. XBR and CFE223 gave the best groups-- 4064 sucked for some reason whereas it's stellar in other guns. Dunno why, can't and won't argue with it. This gun WILL put sub MOA groups on paper but on its terms not predetermined ones.
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