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OH, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2019 12:19:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hemiman]
Building a couple scoped rifles. Looking at ordering some proper tools to do so. Right now I am looking at picking up the Wheeler FAT torque wrench (don't have one that goes as low at the FAT wrench) and a level mounting kit from Wheeler as well.
While I find both of the above necessary and very important (maybe not the 'wheeler' kit but a leveling kit in general), How important is actually lapping rings? Reason I ask, is not because I'm trying to "pinch pennies" but it IS an extra 50-60 dollars to add the lapping kit etc from Wheeler to the FAT wrench combo... If its not really needed I'll skip that "upgrade." For reference I am mounting ARMS 22 rings to a MK12 Mod 0 full length rail, and the other will be on a Sage EBR DCSB rail with probably Leupold M4 rings or Vortex rings....So quality products....Minus the ARMS rings.   Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/23/2019 12:29:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Use Burris Signature rings/ bases....
Otherwise lap the rings. |
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Posted: 2/23/2019 12:33:51 PM EDT
[#2]
build it once right
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Posted: 2/23/2019 12:35:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Lapping rings comes from the days of poorly manufactured garbage when good stuff wasn’t available. Quality machines pair rings of the present day are going to be more precise than anyone hand lapping a set of rings.
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MT, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2019 12:37:38 PM EDT
[#4]
I personally don't bother. I don't see the necessity unless you are using some real junk rings and/or mounts.
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Posted: 2/23/2019 12:40:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: zentradi]
[#5]
With a quality one piece solid rail and quality rings I do not worry about lapping rings. I worried more with two piece bases mounted on receivers, as stacked tolerances could throw off distances and angles. I would not use ARMS rings as I have had their throw levers loosen and let a mount slide easily.
Your luck may be different. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2019 12:45:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hemiman]
[#6]
Appreciate the input so far....
This -seems- to be the general consensus that I have come up with via my Google Fu.... With my limited experience/ignorance in regards to scoped/precision rigs, it seems a leveled scope/rifle platform and proper torque specs seem to be a higher priority. So I will probably just go this route for now. |
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Posted: 2/23/2019 1:00:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tfod:
With a quality one piece solid rail and quality rings I do not worry about lapping rings. I worried more with two piece bases mounted on receivers, as stacked tolerances could throw off distances and angles. I would not use ARMS rings as I have had their throw levers loosen and let a mount slide easily. Your luck may be different. |
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Posted: 2/23/2019 1:09:01 PM EDT
[#8]
With modern precision machining, No.
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Posted: 2/23/2019 1:17:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KILLERB6]
[#9]
NightForce says it’s not necessary with their rings.
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GBR
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Posted: 2/23/2019 3:31:28 PM EDT
[#10]
It’s usually uneccesary with high quality rings and a one-piece base.
An alignment bar will show whether it’s needed. |
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Posted: 2/23/2019 4:00:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tweeter]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6:
NightForce says it’s not necessary with their rings. more important to your railed/ single-piece based would be the correct application of torque during installation. basically, just tighten in an x pattern to specified torque while keeping the gap between rings the same |
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Posted: 2/23/2019 5:37:18 PM EDT
[#12]
As the quality of the rings go up, the necessity of lapping them goes down.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2019 8:55:02 PM EDT
[#13]
If you never intend to use that scope on another rifle, ever, EVER--then you can avoid lapping and end up with a ring around the scope where the rings touched the body.
Otherwise you can lap the rings. |
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Posted: 2/23/2019 9:02:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MitchAlsup:
If you never intend to use that scope on another rifle, ever, EVER--then you can avoid lapping and end up with a ring around the scope where the rings touched the body. Otherwise you can lap the rings. |
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Posted: 2/23/2019 9:36:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586:
If you’re torquing rings down hard enough to create marks on the scope tube then you have other problems going on. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586:
Originally Posted By MitchAlsup:
If you never intend to use that scope on another rifle, ever, EVER--then you can avoid lapping and end up with a ring around the scope where the rings touched the body. Otherwise you can lap the rings. I used the spec'd 55 in/lbs on my new ARC M10 QD mount with my Bushnell DMR II and have no marks at all on the tube. |
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Posted: 2/24/2019 4:32:05 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tweeter:
it's not necessary with any quality rings, and hasn't been since the late 1980's/ early 1990's more important to your railed/ single-piece based would be the correct application of torque during installation. basically, just tighten in an x pattern to specified torque while keeping the gap between rings the same Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tweeter:
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
NightForce says it’s not necessary with their rings. more important to your railed/ single-piece based would be the correct application of torque during installation. basically, just tighten in an x pattern to specified torque while keeping the gap between rings the same My point was that a scope manufacturer actually says it not necessary; the implication is that it unnecessary with any brand of high quality rings. |
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Posted: 2/25/2019 10:06:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: hockeysew]
[#17]
As mentioned with modern machining I dont think its necessary.
What I will do is ALIGN them. I have short pieces of ground round stock in 1", 30 and 34mm. If they are separate rings I will loosely put them on the appropriate alignment bar and loosely install them on the bases/rail. I will snug the rings down to the bar before tightening the rings to the bases/rail. That ensures the rings are aligned relative to the base. I will loosen the rings slightly and rotate and slide the bar in them, if there is any misalignment it is apparent when you try to move the bar. 99 percent of the time it works perfect, I have swapped rings front to rear to get a bit better feel. 1pc mount/rings your stuck with what you got. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2019 8:52:00 PM EDT
[#18]
I don't want to step on peoples opinions here but if I spend $1,000, $2000 or more for a scope I'm sure as heck going to lap a set of rings rings before mounting the scope. I have hunting rifles, benchrest rifles, varmint rifles and more rings and scopes than I can count and I can't remember ever mounting a scope in a set of rings, regardless of the price I paid for them, without lapping them first. It takes so little time to be sure. I have seen too many sets of rings of various cost with excessive or rough tool marks from boring and those will leave marks on the scope. Just about all rings that I have bought required some amount of lapping and truing. If you believe that all rings are machined in match pairs and the bores and the seats are machined while matched, and then kept that way all thru the manufacturing process and shipping process, you are more trusting than I am. We all know where the majority of rings are made, so why on earth would you put a high cost, precision scope in a set of rings without checking that they are machined parallel and tool mark free? Just lap the rings and be sure. Or buy Burris rings if you like that style. Remember to that most scope warrantees will not cover damage due to improper or misaligned mounting.
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Posted: 5/12/2019 11:50:29 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CSM19Z5M:
I don't want to step on peoples opinions here but if I spend $1,000, $2000 or more for a scope I'm sure as heck going to lap a set of rings rings before mounting the scope. I have hunting rifles, benchrest rifles, varmint rifles and more rings and scopes than I can count and I can't remember ever mounting a scope in a set of rings, regardless of the price I paid for them, without lapping them first. It takes so little time to be sure. I have seen too many sets of rings of various cost with excessive or rough tool marks from boring and those will leave marks on the scope. Just about all rings that I have bought required some amount of lapping and truing. If you believe that all rings are machined in match pairs and the bores and the seats are machined while matched, and then kept that way all thru the manufacturing process and shipping process, you are more trusting than I am. We all know where the majority of rings are made, so why on earth would you put a high cost, precision scope in a set of rings without checking that they are machined parallel and tool mark free? Just lap the rings and be sure. Or buy Burris rings if you like that style. Remember to that most scope warrantees will not cover damage due to improper or misaligned mounting. |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2019 6:35:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586:
Lapping rings comes from the days of poorly manufactured garbage when good stuff wasn’t available. Quality machines pair rings of the present day are going to be more precise than anyone hand lapping a set of rings. I personally mount over 300 rifle scopes a year. The only rings I lap (and I don't lap every set) are Leupold rings. Some manufacturers suggest against lapping their rings. |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 7/5/2019 9:17:03 PM EDT
[#21]
It depends...
Are you going to put them on mounts (1 piece, 2 piece, steel, aluminum, it doesn't matter) where one pad is .030" lower than it should be? If so, you either need to bed the pad(s)-- which will allow you to use any well-made rings without lapping, or lap every set of rings you ever put on the rifle. On a "custom" action or AR with a square 1-piece rail it really isn't necessary. I like American Rifle Co. rings & mounts, but most of those mentioned in this post work fine. P.S. Just because you have a steel 1-piece mount doesn't mean that it won't bend if your pad-height is off. Usually the rear pad is lower, but it can go both ways... and closing that gap by tightening the screws WILL bend the rail, and will produce mis-aligned rings. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2019 2:33:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Originally Posted By hemiman:
Building a couple scoped rifles. Looking at ordering some proper tools to do so. Right now I am looking at picking up the Wheeler FAT torque wrench (don't have one that goes as low at the FAT wrench) and a level mounting kit from Wheeler as well. While I find both of the above necessary and very important (maybe not the 'wheeler' kit but a leveling kit in general), How important is actually lapping rings? Reason I ask, is not because I'm trying to "pinch pennies" but it IS an extra 50-60 dollars to add the lapping kit etc from Wheeler to the FAT wrench combo... If its not really needed I'll skip that "upgrade." For reference I am mounting ARMS 22 rings to a MK12 Mod 0 full length rail, and the other will be on a Sage EBR DCSB rail with probably Leupold M4 rings or Vortex rings....So quality products....Minus the ARMS rings.
Thanks. |
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Posted: 10/21/2019 2:51:57 PM EDT
[#23]
its it necessary, most likely not, but it cant hurt it , unless you went stupid crazy with the lapping effort. usually you'll find it with the guys who are trying to chase a dime grouping. but if you looking for real world applications then there's a high probability of not needing to do it.
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Posted: 10/24/2019 4:34:56 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CSM19Z5M:
I don't want to step on peoples opinions here but if I spend $1,000, $2000 or more for a scope I'm sure as heck going to lap a set of rings rings before mounting the scope. I have hunting rifles, benchrest rifles, varmint rifles and more rings and scopes than I can count and I can't remember ever mounting a scope in a set of rings, regardless of the price I paid for them, without lapping them first. It takes so little time to be sure. I have seen too many sets of rings of various cost with excessive or rough tool marks from boring and those will leave marks on the scope. Just about all rings that I have bought required some amount of lapping and truing. If you believe that all rings are machined in match pairs and the bores and the seats are machined while matched, and then kept that way all thru the manufacturing process and shipping process, you are more trusting than I am. We all know where the majority of rings are made, so why on earth would you put a high cost, precision scope in a set of rings without checking that they are machined parallel and tool mark free? Just lap the rings and be sure. Or buy Burris rings if you like that style. Remember to that most scope warrantees will not cover damage due to improper or misaligned mounting. |
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Posted: 10/24/2019 6:40:23 AM EDT
[#25]
I verified with the guy who was in charge of the Army's EBR program that they didn't lap the rings, so if they didn't have issues then it's probably okay. I didn't lap mine on my EBR-RI build. The Mark 4 is a very tough scope.
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Posted: 10/24/2019 7:02:47 AM EDT
[#26]
Originally Posted By hemiman:
Looking at ordering some proper tools to do so. Right now I am looking at picking up the Wheeler FAT torque wrench (don't have one that goes as low at the FAT wrench) and a level mounting kit from Wheeler as well . . . The other stuff you mention? I can't possibly ever imagine using a torque wrench on a gun. Most screws/bolts are pretty easy to feel when they're tight enough and not too tight. With allen wrenches, if you choke up on them (don't hold them at the end, but closer to the bend) and it's almost impossible to overtighten them. Leveling kit? I think I have one sitting in a drawer somewhere. Leveling a scope is a trial and error thing for me. No way around it, no matter what tool I use. |
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Posted: 11/2/2019 2:41:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: w33b8t1]
[#27]
You can set a scope in a set of rings and know almost immediately if things are correct or not. I dont lap anything. Just go by feel to see if there is any problem.
Bed the bases if you need to. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 11/22/2019 12:28:06 PM EDT
[#28]
I work as a gunsmith and lap all scope rings, even the super expensive ones. They all have imperfections, however slight. I also bed the rings using Marine Tex just like I do when putting an action in a stock.
But I was schooled by a well known bench rest shooter and builder of some of the most accurate rifles in the world, they hold several world and national records. Do they actually need all of this fuss? With a good quality one piece mount, maybe not, but it I’m a perfectionist and it doesn’t hurt. But sine the OP is on a budget and not engaged in the business as a gunsmith it’s probably not worth it as long as you buy really top notch one piece rings, something like Night Force. One caution if you do decide to laps the rings, be careful and don’t go too far. I have seen some expensive rings ruined by people that took this too far. |
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Posted: 12/22/2019 10:51:00 PM EDT
[#29]
With modern manufacturing and rings not made in a 3rd world country or china, you are more likely to fuck up your rings than help them in any way by lapping.
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MD, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2019 7:31:39 PM EDT
[#30]
I always lap. 10 minute job and I can see high spots taken down And I use quality stuff. Get the kit, you’ll get your money’s worth out of it
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Posted: 1/1/2020 11:36:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kingfish:
I always lap. 10 minute job and I can see high spots taken down And I use quality stuff. Get the kit, you’ll get your money’s worth out of it |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 1/12/2020 3:04:25 PM EDT
[#32]
I’d be very careful with the Wheeler kit too. I’ve used two different ones that the bases of the little levels were not flat or square. Nothing like using a tool to level your scope/rifle that doesn’t properly indicate level!
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MD, USA
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Posted: 1/19/2020 9:06:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 692racing:
I’d be very careful with the Wheeler kit too. I’ve used two different ones that the bases of the little levels were not flat or square. Nothing like using a tool to level your scope/rifle that doesn’t properly indicate level! |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 1/19/2020 9:09:43 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: Along the leading and tailing edge of the rings, seldom in the middle? |
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Posted: 7/30/2020 5:10:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: brickeyee]
[#35]
Modern high end rings are often made by milling aluminum
and then cutting the resulting 'bar' in half for a matched pair. Even the tops and bottoms are made by boring the aluminum bar and then using a slitting saw to cut off the tops. It is a bunch or tricky milling to make parts that match perfectly. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2020 8:21:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: robpiat]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kingfish: The wheeler levels are absolutely useless. You might as well just throw those away to start with. I find it very difficult to level a scope with a rifle because it seems hard to find a level spot on the scope and hard to find a level spot on most rifles. One thing I read somewhere was just to go by the shooters eye When leveling a scope. Surprisingly your eye is it pretty accurate tool This is what I use for initial setup then tweak by eye. Wondertool! Don't buy the cheap knockoff. Somebody like you had this idea and didn't want to spend the money on lawyers to patent or defend it. https://arisakadefense.com/collections/tools/products/optic-leveler-combo https://www.amazon.com/Arisaka-Defense-Leveler-Silver-OL-Combo/dp/B00W8AXZ98/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=scope+level+arisaka&qid=1596629913&sr=8-9 |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2020 11:26:56 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By robpiat: This is what I use for initial setup then tweak by eye. Wondertool! Don't buy the cheap knockoff. Somebody like you had this idea and didn't want to spend the money on lawyers to patent or defend it. https://arisakadefense.com/collections/tools/products/optic-leveler-combo https://www.amazon.com/Arisaka-Defense-Leveler-Silver-OL-Combo/dp/B00W8AXZ98/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=scope+level+arisaka&qid=1596629913&sr=8-9 |
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QC, CAN
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Posted: 10/7/2020 7:53:41 AM EDT
[#38]
Originally Posted By hemiman: Building a couple scoped rifles. Looking at ordering some proper tools to do so. Right now I am looking at picking up the Wheeler FAT torque wrench (don't have one that goes as low at the FAT wrench) and a level mounting kit from Wheeler as well. While I find both of the above necessary and very important (maybe not the 'wheeler' kit but a leveling kit in general), How important is actually lapping rings? Reason I ask, is not because I'm trying to "pinch pennies" but it IS an extra 50-60 dollars to add the lapping kit etc from Wheeler to the FAT wrench combo... If its not really needed I'll skip that "upgrade." For reference I am mounting ARMS 22 rings to a MK12 Mod 0 full length rail, and the other will be on a Sage EBR DCSB rail with probably Leupold M4 rings or Vortex rings....So quality products....Minus the ARMS rings. Thanks. In the lapping kit you also get the centering bars. I use my kit a lot. I also lap my rings. Others tell me it’s not necessary but I always find that my windage is closer to center when everything is done right. |
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