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Posted: 11/8/2021 11:31:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dupemaster]
Vortex Strike eagle 5-25 x56 vs. Arken sh4-II 6-24 x 54. Sk std+ vs sk match vs eley match.
Had a few hrs to kill today, so I grabbed some rifles and ammo and headed to the range.     I tried to get as scientific as I could with it I shot two 5 rnd groups and one 10 end group of both sks and two 5 round groups of eley at both 50 and 100 yds. Targets were shot the same for both rifles at both distances. Left column sk match, middle was eley, and right was sk std+. The top target on all of them was used for sight era and foulers. The 5 rounds at the top left of the 50 yd targets were just shot to verify zero before starting. Here are the results of my little fun afternoon test. 50 yds   100 yds   Takeaways: The 10/22 is set up for my son. It’s very hard for me to shoot since the lop is about 3 inches too short. It’s also really light and that also makes it hard to shoot. The Arken is a far superior scope to the vortex. Glass, reticle, turrets… all of it. I couldn’t see the numbers at 25 power at 100yds with the Vortex and I could with the Arken. The Bergara is a sub moa rifle no matter what I throw at it. The 10/22 is real close, it shot several sub moa groups, but the bad ones were really bad and threw off the average. If I were to toss the hit and low, it would be closer at 50, but not 100. Best avg with the 10/22 was with SK std + at both distances. Best B14r avg at 50 was SK std + and best at 100 was SK match. Best 50yd group of the day was .176 shot by the B14r with SK std+. Best 100 yd group of the day was .506 shot by the B14r with SK match. Both rifles like center x better. I was out so didn’t get to add it to this test. I should have brought targets with a center to aim at. It didn’t matter much at 50c but at 100 it would have made a big difference, and would have probably tightened up all groups. I like shooting. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 2:23:28 AM EDT
[#1]
You can shoot 0.4 MOA out of a 22?
Wow. I am blown away. I didn't even realize that was possible. 
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Posted: 11/9/2021 2:30:03 AM EDT
[#2]
Interesting. I had no idea .22LR could be that consistently accurate.
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Posted: 11/9/2021 4:44:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Millennial]
[#3]
Factory 10/22 or something like a KIDD or VQ?
If so, I wonder how something like a KIDD or VQ or TacSol 10/22 would stack up to the B14R... that B14R is crazy accurate. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 9:03:10 AM EDT
[#4]
It would be nice if you said specifically what scopes and not just the brand names. Also are you saying you couldn’t see those big numbers in the middle of the targets with the Vortex?
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Posted: 11/9/2021 11:07:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperJlarge]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: It would be nice if you said specifically what scopes and not just the brand names. Also are you saying you couldn’t see those big numbers in the middle of the targets with the Vortex? Looks to be a Strike Eagle. If so, that’s very odd. I have a Vortex Venom and I can make out gridelines and shoot 1/4” dots at 100yds with it, and it has similar glass. It sounds like the ocular hasn’t been adjusted properly for the vortex scope. OP, for group shooting, you’ll likely have better results by going to a target with a small, well defined aiming point. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 11:14:20 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: Looks to be a Strike Eagle. If so, that’s very odd. I have a Vortex Venom and I can make out gridelines and shoot 1/4” dots at 100yds with it, and it has similar glass. It sounds like the ocular hasn’t been adjusted properly for the vortex scope. OP, for group shooting, you’ll likely have better results by going to a target with a small, well defined aiming point. That's why I was asking as I thought it was a SE too and also think it's very odd. Something was definitely not adjusted correctly if you can't make out those number at 100 yards. Also wondering about the reticle comment as they are almost the same with dots in the center and a tree. And I agree a smaller aiming point allows for better precision. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 11:44:25 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: It would be nice if you said specifically what scopes and not just the brand names. Also are you saying you couldn’t see those big numbers in the middle of the targets with the Vortex? Sorry, the vortex is a strike eagle 5-25 x56 and the Arken is an sh4-II 6-24 x54. Both scopes in mils. The problem wasn’t seeing the really numbers, it was that there was that they were very washed out and faint. The was also so much chromatic aberration that I had a very hard time picking a precise point to aim at. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 11:49:25 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pneumagger: Factory 10/22 or something like a KIDD or VQ? If so, I wonder how something like a KIDD or VQ or TacSol 10/22 would stack up to the B14R... that B14R is crazy accurate. The 10/22 has a GM 17.5 target taper barrel on it. I’ve also worked over the action and installed a kidd trigger group. It sits in a krg bravo chassis. I do want to put a better barrel on it some day, but this one shoots well out at 50 yds so I’m not really sure I want to mess with it. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/9/2021 11:56:01 AM EDT
[#9]
Originally Posted By dupemaster: I should have brought targets with a center to aim at. It didn’t matter much at 50c but at 100 it would have made a big difference, and would have probably tightened up all groups. I like shooting. Nice post, OP. You could have used the black ring at the 6 o'clock position and add some extra elevation so the aiming point does not get obliterated by the shots. If you had a pencil, pen or marker, you could have added an aiming dot. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/9/2021 11:58:39 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dupemaster: Sorry, the vortex is a strike eagle 5-25 x56 and the Arken is an sh4-II 6-24 x54. Both scopes in mils. The problem wasn’t seeing the really numbers, it was that there was that they were very washed out and faint. The was also so much chromatic aberration that I had a very hard time picking a precise point to aim at. Questions - Do they both have that much of chromatic abberation? How is the resolution for distant objects? |
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USA
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Posted: 11/9/2021 12:01:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -Obsessed-: You can shoot 0.4 MOA out of a 22? Wow. I am blown away. I didn't even realize that was possible. Winchester 52s and Remington 40x have been doing it for years. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/9/2021 12:09:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dupemaster: Sorry, the vortex is a strike eagle 5-25 x56 and the Arken is an sh4-II 6-24 x54. Both scopes in mils. The problem wasn’t seeing the really numbers, it was that there was that they were very washed out and faint. The was also so much chromatic aberration that I had a very hard time picking a precise point to aim at. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dupemaster: Originally Posted By Rob01: It would be nice if you said specifically what scopes and not just the brand names. Also are you saying you couldn’t see those big numbers in the middle of the targets with the Vortex? Sorry, the vortex is a strike eagle 5-25 x56 and the Arken is an sh4-II 6-24 x54. Both scopes in mils. The problem wasn’t seeing the really numbers, it was that there was that they were very washed out and faint. The was also so much chromatic aberration that I had a very hard time picking a precise point to aim at. You can find online targets to print. I suggest a square or even better a diamond shape. Fitting the target to the sight picture is very influential. A big round black 100 yard bull is for iron sights and crosshairs wander in the center being black on black. Size matters, too small for a scope and you have trouble holding on the center, worse is too small with irons. Those are just general remarks on target selection. For those scopes I would grab a black 2” diamond with a 1” center white diamond in the middle. If you can print in color like red, green blue etc they are even better than black to see holes in the ink printed area. If you use diamonds be careful to keep them plumb or you might follow the cant with the rifle. Nice shooting and report! I would have fun at times shooting old targets left up by other people. Shoot at a full size silhouette and start calling my hits, head, right shoulder, etc. My buddy looking through the spotting scope starts calling BS because he cannot see my holes amongst the old holes. Me : look at the little silhouette scoring guide in the upper corner. 
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Posted: 11/9/2021 12:14:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: Winchester 52s and Remington 40x have been doing it for years. Yup!! The B14r is a great trainer for the price. OP should get some great results with it. B14r thread |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 12:17:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Questions - Do they both have that much of chromatic abberation? How is the resolution for distant objects? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Originally Posted By dupemaster: Sorry, the vortex is a strike eagle 5-25 x56 and the Arken is an sh4-II 6-24 x54. Both scopes in mils. The problem wasn’t seeing the really numbers, it was that there was that they were very washed out and faint. The was also so much chromatic aberration that I had a very hard time picking a precise point to aim at. Questions - Do they both have that much of chromatic abberation? How is the resolution for distant objects? No, the vortex was more aberration than the Arken by a lot. That’s not to say the arken didn’t have any, but it’s quite a bit less than the vortex. I have not taken the vortex past 100yds, but have shot beer can sized targets at 250 with the arken and have no issue with resolution. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/9/2021 12:18:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: Yup!! The B14r is a great trainer for the price. OP should get some great results with it. B14r thread Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: Originally Posted By SteelonSteel: Winchester 52s and Remington 40x have been doing it for years. Yup!! The B14r is a great trainer for the price. OP should get some great results with it. B14r thread I was so close to buying a B14 rimfire. If I actually moved to a suppressor friendly state I would. I have 52c, 40x and a 40xb. Oh and an old Annie 54r I never shot. All CMP guns. The 52c has a throat scour at 6 o’clock from use but it still out shoots me. The 40xb is as new from CMP while the 722 based 40x has lots of charm wear. I am fortunate in what I have. The old match guns shoot as good as the new stuff but are obviously formatted to a different discipline. The remingtons are single shot and only the 52c has a magazine. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 4:09:13 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dupemaster: Sorry, the vortex is a strike eagle 5-25 x56 and the Arken is an sh4-II 6-24 x54. Both scopes in mils. The problem wasn’t seeing the really numbers, it was that there was that they were very washed out and faint. The was also so much chromatic aberration that I had a very hard time picking a precise point to aim at. Are you sure you have it set up correctly. Have had a SE for a while and no issue seeing targets and writing much smaller than those. Have used it out to over 500 yards on my .22. I think you might have something wrong as that does not sound normal at all. No excessive CA either. Also have a Venom and have taken that out to 1065 yards on steel with my .308. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 4:53:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Are you sure you have it set up correctly. Have had a SE for a while and no issue seeing targets and writing much smaller than those. Have used it out to over 500 yards on my .22. I think you might have something wrong as that does not sound normal at all. No excessive CA either. Also have a Venom and have taken that out to 1065 yards on steel with my .308. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Originally Posted By dupemaster: Sorry, the vortex is a strike eagle 5-25 x56 and the Arken is an sh4-II 6-24 x54. Both scopes in mils. The problem wasn’t seeing the really numbers, it was that there was that they were very washed out and faint. The was also so much chromatic aberration that I had a very hard time picking a precise point to aim at. Are you sure you have it set up correctly. Have had a SE for a while and no issue seeing targets and writing much smaller than those. Have used it out to over 500 yards on my .22. I think you might have something wrong as that does not sound normal at all. No excessive CA either. Also have a Venom and have taken that out to 1065 yards on steel with my .308. It’s entirely possible that I don’t have it set up properly or that there is a problem with the scope. I did set it up exactly the same way I’ve set up the Arken and I don’t have any issues with that. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 4:56:06 PM EDT
[#18]
Also, after taking the 10/22 sides by side with the Bergara, I’ve ordered a 20” threaded kidd HB for the 10/22… I’ve got to be able to squeeze another 10th out of it right?
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Posted: 11/9/2021 5:03:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NotRyan]
[#19]
Poor neighbors house... how many holes?
I'd be interested in you dialing the vortex back to 16-20x and trying it out in that range. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 5:20:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RyanEsstac: Poor neighbors house... how many holes? I'd be interested in you dialing the vortex back to 16-20x and trying it out in that range. I shot it at 20 for the most part. Maybe not a warning shot over the roof once or twice… |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 6:05:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dupemaster: It’s entirely possible that I don’t have it set up properly or that there is a problem with the scope. I did set it up exactly the same way I’ve set up the Arken and I don’t have any issues with that. You set the reticle focus with the ocular on highest power and max parallax? If reticle is not set right it can cause issues. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 7:47:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: You set the reticle focus with the ocular on highest power and max parallax? If reticle is not set right it can cause issues. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Originally Posted By dupemaster: It’s entirely possible that I don’t have it set up properly or that there is a problem with the scope. I did set it up exactly the same way I’ve set up the Arken and I don’t have any issues with that. You set the reticle focus with the ocular on highest power and max parallax? If reticle is not set right it can cause issues. Yeah, thinking about this, as I said earlier, I did set this up for my son and set focus to his eye (point at sky, high power, look away and back till the reticle is clear…). My eyes suck and I wear glasses. I’ll give it another go. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 8:26:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dupemaster: Yeah, thinking about this, as I said earlier, I did set this up for my son and set focus to his eye (point at sky, high power, look away and back till the reticle is clear…). My eyes suck and I wear glasses. I’ll give it another go. Try it set up for you. I wear glasses and have astigmatism so know the struggle. |
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Posted: 11/9/2021 9:30:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Try it set up for you. I wear glasses and have astigmatism so know the struggle. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Originally Posted By dupemaster: Yeah, thinking about this, as I said earlier, I did set this up for my son and set focus to his eye (point at sky, high power, look away and back till the reticle is clear…). My eyes suck and I wear glasses. I’ll give it another go. Try it set up for you. I wear glasses and have astigmatism so know the struggle. I re set it as good as I can. It’s better, but and the reticle not as clear and crisp as the Arken. I’ll check it out agains some targets in the morning to see if it’s any better. We shall see. |
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Posted: 11/13/2021 11:26:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dupemaster]
[#25]
Well, I need to reconduct this expiriment. Hoping Monday is clear and dry. The kidd 20in bbl, kidd bolt, and silencerco warlock II all showed up.
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Posted: 11/15/2021 6:01:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dupemaster]
[#26]
Went to the 25yd indoor range today. The weather is quite shitty, so no 50 yd testing.
I took both rifles and the warlock 2. My first goal was to get the 10/22 zeroed with the new kidd barrel on it. Second goal was to see if there was any poi change with the suppressor on, off, and with thread protectors on. Once zeroed, I could not see any noticeable shift in any of the three conditions. It is just 25yds, but no difference at all.   Shooting position was awkward on that skinny bench, but having the arca rail on the Bergara made that the easiest to steady and shoot. I’ll measure groups tonight, but as long as I did my part, both rifles shot about the same. Bergara all groups are 15 rnds  10/22  Also did some offhand shooting at 25 as well. The Bergara was top left and the 10/22 was the middle. The weight of the Bergara made it easier to steady. 
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Posted: 11/17/2021 11:39:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dupemaster: Well, I need to reconduct this expiriment. Hoping Monday is clear and dry. The kidd 20in bbl, kidd bolt, and silencerco warlock II all showed up. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/7F61FAF7-B88D-4C68-8E2F-E5A186A55341-2166067.jpg I may have missed it but what stock is that? |
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Posted: 11/17/2021 11:48:07 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jmt1271: I may have missed it but what stock is that? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jmt1271: Originally Posted By dupemaster: Well, I need to reconduct this expiriment. Hoping Monday is clear and dry. The kidd 20in bbl, kidd bolt, and silencerco warlock II all showed up. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/7F61FAF7-B88D-4C68-8E2F-E5A186A55341-2166067.jpg I may have missed it but what stock is that? It’s a krg bravo |
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Posted: 11/17/2021 11:56:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Well, now that I have power again… I have measurements.
Bergara  10/22  I’m not one to talk about fliers or strays, but there were a couple of groups in here that would be significantly smaller had the jerk behind the trigger not jerked the trigger. I still counted them, but if I took just the one from the bottom right group on the 10/22, it would have averaged sub moa. Also, the bottom two targets on both were shot suppressed. The rest were not. |
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Posted: 11/21/2021 12:19:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: CavScout]
[#30]
@dupemaster this is a great thread, very nice work! I was wondering if the Tactical Solutions Owyhee shoots any good since it is a bolt action but the B14 and your 10/22 setups are quite neat. I look forward to any other testing that comes out of this.
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Posted: 11/22/2021 4:35:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CavScout: @dupemaster this is a great thread, very nice work! I was wondering if the Tactical Solutions Owyhee shoots any good since it is a bolt action but the B14 and your 10/22 setups are quite neat. I look forward to any other testing that comes out of this. Thanks! I plan on doing another round now that I have a new bbl and a properly head-spaced bolt on the 10/22. I also just got a brick of Midas+ and have some sk long range in the mail. I’m going to see what other rifles I can get my hands on and will probably continue. I’ll also add a grid test to future testing. That should show the real accuracy potential. |
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Posted: 11/29/2021 8:44:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dupemaster]
[#32]
Well, I went out again today. Truth be told, nothing is reliable as the weather was a shit sandwich. It didn’t rain, but the wind came from all different directions and the light was hit or miss. That said, here are today’s completely inconclusive results.
   I was a hot mess, but tried to keep it organized. Conclusion # 1 The 10/22 outshot the Bergara overall at both 50 and 100 yds. Interesting conclusion. Need to re test in less of a hurricane. Conclusion # 2 other than the fact that the best groups from both rifles were shot with Midas +, it’s rather inconclusive. I’m blaming this on the wind, but in the real world we don’t get to to that, so, it is what it is. Conclusion # 3 both rifles need a good cleaning as they have both had about 700 rnds since cleaning, most of those rounds were suppressed. Conclusion # 4 don’t mess with Marvin. Marvin is a mean, green, shooting machine.   I was down on myself, so my buddy handed me his new toy with a very interesting story. I wasn’t sure if I was having a bad shooting day or not. 5 rounds out of Marvin confirmed I have not had a stroke and can still hold a rifle steady and pull a trigger. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2021 12:12:30 AM EDT
[#33]
Thanks for sharing, OP.
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USA
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Posted: 12/28/2021 3:55:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#34]
Originally Posted By dupemaster: Vortex Strike eagle 5-25 x56 vs. Arken sh4-II 6-24 x 54. The Arken is a far superior scope to the vortex. Glass, reticle, turrets… all of it. I couldn’t see the numbers at 25 power at 100yds with the Vortex and I could with the Arken. This type of information, and the details in the subsequent posts on the matter, can be worth real money to your fellow shooters. Imagine if everyone had to buy and try to find out. Photos thru the optics would really help, too. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 4:59:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperJlarge]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dupemaster: Well, I went out again today. Truth be told, nothing is reliable as the weather was a shit sandwich. It didn’t rain, but the wind came from all different directions and the light was hit or miss. That said, here are today’s completely inconclusive results. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/92C1FDE6-3D3E-4BB7-BE0E-C427440078B4-2186077.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/A86D13F9-78DA-44F3-8E68-DF4874CF4C38-2186079.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/ADB5C6D6-F067-4F24-AB2B-C45821F38AAB-2186080.jpg I was a hot mess, but tried to keep it organized. Conclusion # 1 The 10/22 outshot the Bergara overall at both 50 and 100 yds. Interesting conclusion. Need to re test in less of a hurricane. Conclusion # 2 other than the fact that the best groups from both rifles were shot with Midas +, it’s rather inconclusive. I’m blaming this on the wind, but in the real world we don’t get to to that, so, it is what it is. Conclusion # 3 both rifles need a good cleaning as they have both had about 700 rnds since cleaning, most of those rounds were suppressed. Conclusion # 4 don’t mess with Marvin. Marvin is a mean, green, shooting machine. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/3DD450C5-FB39-48B7-8DCC-BAD4BB8D8CB7-2186287.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/ED9A15B1-281E-4887-8976-74277BFB8F44-2186069.jpg I was down on myself, so my buddy handed me his new toy with a very interesting story. I wasn’t sure if I was having a bad shooting day or not. 5 rounds out of Marvin confirmed I have not had a stroke and can still hold a rifle steady and pull a trigger. How are you measuring group size? Just looking at the 10/22 results, as well as “Marvin”, the group measurement seems a bit off. Example, for the 10/22 result with Midas (lower left target), it can’t be .177” center to center and have space in between the bullet holes. With a .22lr measuring at .223”, if you had 2 rounds just touching each other, the edge to edge would be .446”. Subtract out the bullet diameter of .223”, to get the center to center measurement, and you’d be at .223”. Same is true with the “Marvin” group. There is space between the outer holes to where you could fit another bullet. The groups are good, but may need remeasured. |
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Posted: 12/28/2021 5:20:00 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: This type of information, and the details in the subsequent posts on the matter, can be worth real money to your fellow shooters. Imagine if everyone had to buy and try to find out. Photos thru the optics would really help, too. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Trollslayer: Originally Posted By dupemaster: Vortex Strike eagle 5-25 x56 vs. Arken sh4-II 6-24 x 54. The Arken is a far superior scope to the vortex. Glass, reticle, turrets… all of it. I couldn’t see the numbers at 25 power at 100yds with the Vortex and I could with the Arken. This type of information, and the details in the subsequent posts on the matter, can be worth real money to your fellow shooters. Imagine if everyone had to buy and try to find out. Photos thru the optics would really help, too. I’m still wondering what the issue was. I would think the OP would have zero issue making out the large numbers on the targets he was looking at. Here’s a target I shot with the Vortex Venom, which is a lower end choice to the strike Eagle. I have zero issue making out the grid lines at 100yds and the size of the lines are similar to the lines in his targets number. I don’t have experience with the Arken, but I’ve looked through a few Strike Eagles/Venoms to know that they should be able to see those numbers. 
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Posted: 12/29/2021 4:15:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dupemaster]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: How are you measuring group size? Just looking at the 10/22 results, as well as “Marvin”, the group measurement seems a bit off. Example, for the 10/22 result with Midas (lower left target), it can’t be .177” center to center and have space in between the bullet holes. With a .22lr measuring at .223”, if you had 2 rounds just touching each other, the edge to edge would be .446”. Subtract out the bullet diameter of .223”, to get the center to center measurement, and you’d be at .223”. Same is true with the “Marvin” group. There is space between the outer holes to where you could fit another bullet. The groups are good, but may need remeasured. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: Originally Posted By dupemaster: Well, I went out again today. Truth be told, nothing is reliable as the weather was a shit sandwich. It didn’t rain, but the wind came from all different directions and the light was hit or miss. That said, here are today’s completely inconclusive results. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/92C1FDE6-3D3E-4BB7-BE0E-C427440078B4-2186077.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/A86D13F9-78DA-44F3-8E68-DF4874CF4C38-2186079.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/ADB5C6D6-F067-4F24-AB2B-C45821F38AAB-2186080.jpg I was a hot mess, but tried to keep it organized. Conclusion # 1 The 10/22 outshot the Bergara overall at both 50 and 100 yds. Interesting conclusion. Need to re test in less of a hurricane. Conclusion # 2 other than the fact that the best groups from both rifles were shot with Midas +, it’s rather inconclusive. I’m blaming this on the wind, but in the real world we don’t get to to that, so, it is what it is. Conclusion # 3 both rifles need a good cleaning as they have both had about 700 rnds since cleaning, most of those rounds were suppressed. Conclusion # 4 don’t mess with Marvin. Marvin is a mean, green, shooting machine. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/3DD450C5-FB39-48B7-8DCC-BAD4BB8D8CB7-2186287.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/24268/ED9A15B1-281E-4887-8976-74277BFB8F44-2186069.jpg I was down on myself, so my buddy handed me his new toy with a very interesting story. I wasn’t sure if I was having a bad shooting day or not. 5 rounds out of Marvin confirmed I have not had a stroke and can still hold a rifle steady and pull a trigger. How are you measuring group size? Just looking at the 10/22 results, as well as “Marvin”, the group measurement seems a bit off. Example, for the 10/22 result with Midas (lower left target), it can’t be .177” center to center and have space in between the bullet holes. With a .22lr measuring at .223”, if you had 2 rounds just touching each other, the edge to edge would be .446”. Subtract out the bullet diameter of .223”, to get the center to center measurement, and you’d be at .223”. Same is true with the “Marvin” group. There is space between the outer holes to where you could fit another bullet. The groups are good, but may need remeasured. I zero the calipers, add .223 and rezero. I then measure from the out side of the grease marks on paper as well as I can. I’m not trying to fudge any numbers here. I’m sure I’m off a few thousands once in a while. Maybe I’m doing it incorrectly? Perhaps there is an issue with my calipers? I’m not sure, but your math is sound.  |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 4:22:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dupemaster]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: I’m still wondering what the issue was. I would think the OP would have zero issue making out the large numbers on the targets he was looking at. Here’s a target I shot with the Vortex Venom, which is a lower end choice to the strike Eagle. I have zero issue making out the grid lines at 100yds and the size of the lines are similar to the lines in his targets number. I don’t have experience with the Arken, but I’ve looked through a few Strike Eagles/Venoms to know that they should be able to see those numbers. https://i.imgur.com/QnA6akx.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: Originally Posted By Trollslayer: Originally Posted By dupemaster: Vortex Strike eagle 5-25 x56 vs. Arken sh4-II 6-24 x 54. The Arken is a far superior scope to the vortex. Glass, reticle, turrets… all of it. I couldn’t see the numbers at 25 power at 100yds with the Vortex and I could with the Arken. This type of information, and the details in the subsequent posts on the matter, can be worth real money to your fellow shooters. Imagine if everyone had to buy and try to find out. Photos thru the optics would really help, too. I’m still wondering what the issue was. I would think the OP would have zero issue making out the large numbers on the targets he was looking at. Here’s a target I shot with the Vortex Venom, which is a lower end choice to the strike Eagle. I have zero issue making out the grid lines at 100yds and the size of the lines are similar to the lines in his targets number. I don’t have experience with the Arken, but I’ve looked through a few Strike Eagles/Venoms to know that they should be able to see those numbers. https://i.imgur.com/QnA6akx.jpg I don’t know yet. I’ve had them both out side by side several times since the op and continue to have focus/ clarity issues with the vortex. I have tried refocusing it and have no luck. I have noticed that the eye box is not too forgiving on it and maybe I’m having trouble with consistently getting my eye the correct distance due to the lop of the rifle being too short for me. I don’t believe photos through the scopes would tell any real difference. Camera glass and sensors don’t come close to the human eye with what they can pick up, but I can try to take some photos. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:30:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: How are you measuring group size? Just looking at the 10/22 results, as well as “Marvin”, the group measurement seems a bit off. Example, for the 10/22 result with Midas (lower left target), it can’t be .177” center to center and have space in between the bullet holes. With a .22lr measuring at .223”, if you had 2 rounds just touching each other, the edge to edge would be .446”. Subtract out the bullet diameter of .223”, to get the center to center measurement, and you’d be at .223”. Same is true with the “Marvin” group. There is space between the outer holes to where you could fit another bullet. The groups are good, but may need remeasured. OP, that "Marvin the Martian" is great shooting. Please don't take what follows as derogatory in any way. I took a copy of the "Marvin" group and scaled it and measured the group (as well as I could). I got 0.40". As a sanity check, please note that the group is roughly 3 holes wide and one caliber is deducted to yield a center-to-center dimension: (3-1) *.22" = 0.44". So, I think my 0.40" is approximately correct. The OP should re-measure the actual group dimensions. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 10:46:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Ok, I’ve remeasured. I took care to be as accurate as possible. I also did what I could to provide some perspective.
Here are new photos of as much of the process as I can document. Caliper set at .223.  Zeroed at .223   The target itself.  Just for some perspective.  Marvin target.  5.56 green tip for perspective.  10/22 Midas group. I did find this one to be bigger than posted originally by a few hundreds.  Again, I’m not trying to put out any false statements or to stretch the truth at all. Thank you guys for pointing out anything that may help keep this as accurate as possible. If I’m doing something wrong, please correct me. I’m 100% open to honest criticism. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 12:16:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperJlarge]
[#41]
I think it’s a combination of the target and not being at the absolute edge of the grease ring. The target colors may make it difficult to see the grease mark, and if the target is loose it may not transfer as well as if it was taut. In some of the caliper pics (Martin) it looks like the grease ring extends to the black ring on the target, but your calipers are inside of that.
Measurements are edge to edge, no subtraction. The Sk Std +, left middle. Smallest is .193” center to center after subtraction of the bullet OD. The outer bullets overlapped just slightly. This appears to be smaller than the “Martin” group since the grease rings don’t appear to overlap with that target.  Focus towards the “hot match” in the middle, right hand side. At .465” edge to edge, that comes out to be .242” center to center. The furthest rounds are essentially overlapping, but that’s a larger measurement than what you were getting with your 10/22 group which had a decent amount of space between the bullet holes. The Sk +, bottom row at .449” comes out at .226” center to center, which is also larger than what you were getting for the 10/22 group, but it’s essentially an overlapping hole with all rounds touching.  Again, I think it’s the targets you were using and nothing that you were intentionally trying to do. You just need to measure from the outer edge of the grease rings and not from the holes in the paper, and white targets makes that easier. You may also want to measure the 223/5.56 bullet just outside of the brass to confirm your calipers read .224”. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 1:07:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dupemaster: Thank you guys for pointing out anything that may help keep this as accurate as possible. If I’m doing something wrong, please correct me. I’m 100% open to honest criticism. I believe we were both just reacting to what we saw. As stated, no criticism intended, just trying to help. Your shooting and that group are so good, it's worth a little discussion. In the image below, I see two items for you to review. Both would lead to a smaller group size. 1. The fixed jaw appears to overlap the true OD of the bullet. 2. The movable jaw appears aligned with the center of the right-most hole. Center a fired case over the hole and measure to its outer edge (this is non-destructive). Alternatively, push a loaded round thru the hole (this is invasive and damaging). I did it two different ways using the newer photos. In one case, I got 0.22", the other yielded 0.24". Both are much closer to your value. You have target and the caliper. You know best. Good shooting.  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 8:23:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#43]
Here's the overlay I did. The light blue disks are scaled to the size of a 22LR.
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Posted: 1/1/2022 2:42:48 AM EDT
[#44]
OP - what kind of wrap do you have on the Bergara (cheek piece and around the scope)?
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Posted: 1/17/2022 7:15:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dupemaster]
[#45]
I took the Bergara out today to see if 35 in lb on the action torque is did better than factory. I didn’t do it in a very scientific manner, so I can’t really comment on that, I’ll do it more methodical next time and work up from 25-60 and see.
What I really did today was trying out cci std vs sk std plus and center-x with a little Midas plus in the mix. I also downloaded that Ballistic-X app to see if we can solve and standardized measurements on groups. It’s a little weird to use, and I definitely was getting consistently larger group measurements than on my own with calipers. I just did my best to center it over the hole. Anyway, here are results.    Now here are the Ballistic-X measurements. I’ll calculate the averages later. I did not do them on center x yet, but I will in a bit. Sk std + 50 yd     .538 group average vs the .487 I got with the calipers. A .051 difference. Cci std 50 yd     .533 ave on Ballistic-X vs my measured .509. A .024 difference. 100yd center x   It was a pretty calm day, but 40 and super foggy. Fingers were getting cold after about two hours and my son wanted to go home. I didn’t have time to play the tack driving game. Next time. |
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Posted: 1/17/2022 7:16:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crisptito: OP - what kind of wrap do you have on the Bergara (cheek piece and around the scope)? Athletic stretch tape. |
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