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Posted: 3/12/2021 9:32:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Tranquility]
I often find myself chasing a percieved 0.2 mil zero shift. I shoot a heavy barreled rifle with a Sphuhr mount. I wonder sometimes if bumping my rifle a few times in and out of the safe or the truck or while climbing a fence with it has any effect or if it is just me (it's probably me or a crosswind or shooting off dirt vs. concrete vs. a pack etc.)
What you guys think the most damaging type of impact to a precision scoped rifle's zero is, if any? Picking it up by the scope? Drop onto the scope? Drop onto the barrel? Repeated freezing and thawing of the rifle and scope (this happens to my stuff pretty frequently)? I see all these formal tests where pistols are dropped from buildings and buried in mud but not much with precison rifles. |
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Posted: 3/12/2021 11:54:11 AM EDT
[#1]
Jarring the scope will upset the zero. The erector tube is suspended on springs and there is a mechanism that bumps against the tube, so bouncing the erector tube off the elevation and windage screws is the most likely culprit as the tube does not settle back into the same location.
If the elevation and windage knobs are not getting moved while you transport or move the gun around, try clicking the knobs two or three clicks in each direction from the zero to get everything resettled. It's possible temp changes are messing with the zero due to the different materials in the construction. I think I would do the same with the knobs if I thought temperature was the cause. Some cross section drawings -    Sightron and the Weaver Micro Trac are similar, probably close enough to identical. Look for more images by searching on rifle scope assembly and rifle scope erector tube. . |
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Posted: 3/12/2021 12:14:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MSC182]
[#2]
It depends on the scope and mount. A quality scope in a quality mount/rings can be carried all day by the scope with no zero shift. As to bumping into something, it will depend on the severity of the bump. Rifles used in PRS/NRL matches get banged around a fair bit with no issues. In your examples, I’d imagine dropping the rifle on the scope would cause the most shift.
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Posted: 3/12/2021 2:52:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tranquility]
[#3]
Thanks for the replies.
For what it's worth my rifle is 19 pounds. Something that made me think of this was recently it was laid across a chair horizontally and I caught it on my pack. It fell about two feet to carpet. I didn't see how it landed. Scope is a Razor gen 2 in a Spuhr mount. I didn't think an impact like that would have any effect but I am no expert. I would like to see someone take a half dozen rifle/scope/mount setups then whack them in various locations with a rubber mallet or something and see what happens. If I ever saw a scope ad where a PRS rifle was dropped onto the scope with no ill effect it would be a big selling point for me. |
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Posted: 3/12/2021 5:12:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tranquility]
[#4]
I absolutely love precision rifle shooting but I find it absolutely frustrating sometimes.
I thought my zero was off a bit low left. My cold bore shot seemed to confirm that. Then I put three rounds in the same hole at a good elevation, with the wind from the left making it still off to the left. I should have packed up and went inside but no, I took a few more shots. Low again with one flying high!  Attached FileDid it move because of me? The rifle? Gremlins? Makes me want to pull my hair out sometimes, especially with the cost of ammo. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 3/12/2021 5:40:32 PM EDT
[#5]
FWIW, I know neither are precision rigs but, I have had both a Savage 212 12 gauge and a Ruger American 350 legend have inadvertent falls from tree stands while deer hunting, with scopes and mounts of less quality, with no ill effect.
But like I said, they weren't precision rigs so that small poi change wouldn't have been noticeable. |
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Posted: 3/12/2021 5:53:16 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crazyelece: FWIW, I know neither are precision rigs but, I have had both a Savage 212 12 gauge and a Ruger American 350 legend have inadvertent falls from tree stands while deer hunting, with scopes and mounts of less quality, with no ill effect. But like I said, they weren't precision rigs so that small poi change wouldn't have been noticeable. FWIW it makes me feel a lot better about dropping my rifle two feet.  Someone on another forum was worried that his rifle recoiling into the brim of his hat had damaged something. |
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Posted: 3/12/2021 7:26:33 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Roddy556: Thanks for the replies. For what it's worth my rifle is 19 pounds. Something that made me think of this was recently it was laid across a chair horizontally and I caught it on my pack. It fell about two feet to carpet. I didn't see how it landed. Scope is a Razor gen 2 in a Spuhr mount. I didn't think an impact like that would have any effect but I am no expert. I would like to see someone take a half dozen rifle/scope/mount setups then whack them in various locations with a rubber mallet or something and see what happens. If I ever saw a scope ad where a PRS rifle was dropped onto the scope with no ill effect it would be a big selling point for me. I highly doubt you would have any damage or serious shift from that. I have dropped a couple of my scopes out of the safe and there were no issues. The Razor II is the most used scope by PRS members and they are very durable. Mine have scratches and scrapes on them from being banging into all sorts of obstacles and different things we shoot off of. Your pic above looks like the shots aren't that far off except for the high one. Are you sure you have a perfect sight picture when taking the shot? Any small amount of shadowing will put the impact in the opposite direction. I would look at how you are seeing the target before the shot. Also use smaller targets. Those circles are huge. At 100 yards I wouldn't use anything bigger than 1". Aim small, miss small. Do that and see if you have less shift issues. Below are some targets to try. They are free and just print them off from this site. I like to use the first one with three red diamonds and also the first two under load development with the small circle and dot and also the red small circles. I don;t like the squares. Lots of free target sites out there. Just find something smaller. https://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/targets/ |
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Posted: 3/12/2021 8:06:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: I highly doubt you would have any damage or serious shift from that. I have dropped a couple of my scopes out of the safe and there were no issues. The Razor II is the most used scope by PRS members and they are very durable. Mine have scratches and scrapes on them from being banging into all sorts of obstacles and different things we shoot off of. Your pic above looks like the shots aren't that far off except for the high one. Are you sure you have a perfect sight picture when taking the shot? Any small amount of shadowing will put the impact in the opposite direction. I would look at how you are seeing the target before the shot. Also use smaller targets. Those circles are huge. At 100 yards I wouldn't use anything bigger than 1". Aim small, miss small. Do that and see if you have less shift issues. Below are some targets to try. They are free and just print them off from this site. I like to use the first one with three red diamonds and also the first two under load development with the small circle and dot and also the red small circles. I don;t like the squares. Lots of free target sites out there. Just find something smaller. https://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/targets/ I appreciate the feedback. Pretty sure I have a good sight picture. I do a few things to help with that. My cheekpiece is set to fit me. I set the parallax and check it by moving my head around and ensuring crosshairs are not moving relative to the target. I relax dry fire before each live round. I also try to take a break inbetween shots and get off the rifle a bit to try to make sure if I get in a bad position I am not like that for the entire shooting session. I have found myself obscuring smaller dots with the reticle so that was the logic behind the bigger ones. I will check out those targets though. |
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Posted: 3/12/2021 8:16:47 PM EDT
[#9]
What reticle do you have? I have both the 7C and 2C and with those targets above there is no problem obscuring the target. The small dot of the 7C sits right in the center of them and with the open center of the 2C you can also see them. Give them a shot.
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Posted: 3/12/2021 9:25:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tranquility]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: What reticle do you have? I have both the 7C and 2C and with those targets above there is no problem obscuring the target. The small dot of the 7C sits right in the center of them and with the open center of the 2C you can also see them. Give them a shot. 2C reticle. I know having my zero 0.1 off probably won't matter but I like it as good as I can get. I am going to move it up 0.05 and right 0.1. It was centered horizontally but there was a 7 to 8mph wind that I didn't correct for coming from about 8:00 that should have pushed it right. That said if I really get down to splitting hairs on windage I like to favor left as spin drift will put me a little right at distance. |
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Posted: 3/13/2021 10:36:55 AM EDT
[#11]
I haven't had a zero shift from my b14+pst-gen2 getting knocked and falling, hitting the scope on the lip of the safe and muzzle brake taking a good chip out of the concrete.
Sling failure sending an AR flashhider first onto concrete didn't mess up a cheapo 3x spitfire (or whatever the etched prism 3x vortex is)... a couple times. But that's also a rack rifle shooting FMJs... I think you need to look at environmentals and the nut behind the trigger. |
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Posted: 3/13/2021 11:21:00 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Roddy556: 2C reticle. I know having my zero 0.1 off probably won't matter but I like it as good as I can get. I am going to move it up 0.05 and right 0.1. It was centered horizontally but there was a 7 to 8mph wind that I didn't correct for coming from about 8:00 that should have pushed it right. That said if I really get down to splitting hairs on windage I like to favor left as spin drift will put me a little right at distance. With the 2C those small dots work well and sit right in the open center. Try shooting smaller targets. Makes the hold more precise. I sometimes use bullet holes as targets. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 11:49:26 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FritzTKatt: I think you need to look at environmentals and the nut behind the trigger. This is true. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 11:50:31 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: With the 2C those small dots work well and sit right in the open center. Try shooting smaller targets. Makes the hold more precise. I sometimes use bullet holes as targets. I often use a bingo dabber. It's fast and cheap. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 6:33:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tranquility]
[#15]
@Rob01
I could probably squeak into the MOA All Day challenge.I wrote 10-14mph wind on the target but upon closer observation of indicators, Kestrel, and the weather network I believe it was stronger than that. I set up facing directly into the wind and hung a three foot streamer right behind the target. It stayed close to 12:00 but switched a little. I could see the streamer in my scope and tried to shoot when it was coming straight at me. Sorry it looks like a two year old scribbled all over the target. I'm left handed and it was on a cardboard backer.  Attached FileI think I can live with that. I may take it 0.05 left. Honestly Vortex's infinite zero adjustment is both handy and frustrating. I always take a picture of the internal turret before I adjust it. I'm pretty good at shooting the rifle on it's side though! |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 6:38:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Looks good. I usually zero about .1 mil left to account for some spin drift at longer ranges but if mostly shooting right closer in at 100 then a dead on works. Honestly I wouldn't move it much unless the shots stay where 7/8 are.
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Posted: 3/14/2021 6:42:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tranquility]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Looks good. I usually zero about .1 mil left to account for some spin drift at longer ranges but if mostly shooting right closer in at 100 then a dead on works. Honestly I wouldn't move it much unless the shots stay where 7/8 are. That might be wind. According to my app at that wind speed a switch from 12:00 to 11:30 will move it over 0.05 and that might have happened. I probably sound like I'm ranting a lot on here about trivial things but I don't see my shooting buddies too often and have no one to talk to about it so the community support is nice. 
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Posted: 3/14/2021 8:12:10 PM EDT
[#18]
That's what these forums are here for. To talk about our guns and how to do stuff with them.
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Posted: 3/15/2021 10:03:59 AM EDT
[#19]
I have Vertical gun racks in my buggy’s and tractors. In fact I have an AR with the Anodization wore off from getting hammered going over tough terrain. And the Leupold is very seldom off. Other than riding in a tracked vehicle I don’t know how you could abuse a weapon more. The track up and down trick is second nature. I have had an erector tube in a Burris turn the cross hair around in a circle I’m so hard on optics.
 Look at the sides of my fore arm tube on my coyote calling rifle. I don’t recall it ever having more than a quarter moa shift. That wear is caused from vibration and being removed and replaced in the vertical rack. Your Gen II Razor should be more durable than that MKAR. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 9:29:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sparkyD: I have Vertical gun racks in my buggy’s and tractors. In fact I have an AR with the Anodization wore off from getting hammered going over tough terrain. And the Leupold is very seldom off. Other than riding in a tracked vehicle I don’t know how you could abuse a weapon more. The track up and down trick is second nature. I have had an erector tube in a Burris turn the cross hair around in a circle I’m so hard on optics. https://i.imgur.com/EZudMS3.jpg Look at the sides of my fore arm tube on my coyote calling rifle. I don’t recall it ever having more than a quarter moa shift. That wear is caused from vibration and being removed and replaced in the vertical rack. Your Gen II Razor should be more durable than that MKAR. That sounds like a pretty good durability test. |
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Posted: 4/4/2021 1:55:28 PM EDT
[#21]
was out shooting with a buddy i brought my LMT mws 16" with a vortex pst gen 1 4-16. i was shooting at 225 or so yards using hold over on the scope. he had irons on his AR which were not zeroed and was trying to the hit the same gong. he asked me to give it a try after getting a proper zero i told him to glass the target with my rifle to spot hits. so i run about 10 rounds and then we go to switch guns and my whole rifle fell about 4 feet off the bench onto concrete. Small little scuff on the rail and that is all the damage i could see. packed up and went home, returned to the range a couple days ago to shoot a couple groups at 100. my optic was about 10moa low. only thing i can think of was the fall but windage was good only the elevation was off.
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Posted: 4/5/2021 10:14:21 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By glocktalk: was out shooting with a buddy i brought my LMT mws 16" with a vortex pst gen 1 4-16. i was shooting at 225 or so yards using hold over on the scope. he had irons on his AR which were not zeroed and was trying to the hit the same gong. he asked me to give it a try after getting a proper zero i told him to glass the target with my rifle to spot hits. so i run about 10 rounds and then we go to switch guns and my whole rifle fell about 4 feet off the bench onto concrete. Small little scuff on the rail and that is all the damage i could see. packed up and went home, returned to the range a couple days ago to shoot a couple groups at 100. my optic was about 10moa low. only thing i can think of was the fall but windage was good only the elevation was off. I bent the tube of a Leupold VXII once falling out of the tractor after slipping on a step. It was just as you described off about 10moa but straight up. Sent the scope back to Leupold explaining what had happened and they replaced it plus installed CDS turret. I can’t complain about Leupold or Burris they both have warrantied optics for me. I had a Burris that was mounted on a 1022 that I put on a AR10 and the reticle would turn as you fired and then reset like a carriage on a type writer. If you think you bump a scope enough to move the poi shoot it and see. That’s the best advice I can offer. |
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Posted: 4/9/2021 12:38:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: crashburnrepeat]
[#23]
I dropped a precision rifle out of a side by side bouncing up a steep hill right into huge rocks bad enough to dent the scope bell in pretty bad. Zero didn't change..I shot it all season and it was fine.
Good scope should tolerate some bumping |
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