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USA
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Posted: 11/13/2019 12:32:28 AM EDT
Im a long time lurker, but I think I need some help now. I have an old Stag AR-15 that I have decided to try to make into a 1/2moa rifle. I have replaced nearly everything, but its not performing anywhere near my goal. from tip to tail, heres what ive installed.
-Lothar Walther 18" stainless barrel 1-8 twist, 223 wylde (left muzzle device off for testing) -Free Float HG -odin works adjustable low profile gas block -I've lapped the receiver true and bedded the barrel extension with sleeve retainer -Rise armament NiBo BCG with Lothar Walther matched bolt -Timney match single stage trigger -Primary Arms Platinum series 1-8x with American defense mount(I also tried using a vortex 6-24x) -Tubbs flat wire buffer spring -Magpul ACS stock I reload, but im not going to start load development for this barrel until I can affirm its capability with factory match ammunition. Im really disappointed in its performance so far. I have tried 4 different types of match ammo from 60gr to 77gr and im seeing between 1.2-2.5 moa using 5 shot groups. I was shooting from bags in an underground 100yd tunnel. I am doing a similar build with an LR308, and its shooting around .8moa on the same range trip, which im happy with, so I'd like to think its not me... Is there something stupid that im missing here? I think ive addressed about everything except carrier tilt, but thats really getting in the weeds. Help me AR gods!! |
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Posted: 11/13/2019 1:04:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Keep trying different ammo, even ones you dont normally shoot.
Sometimes, it just wont shoot well... in that case, barrel swap and keep shooting |
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Posted: 11/13/2019 2:09:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cheekibreeki]
[#2]
You've done pretty much everything you can do for accurizing. I'd question the precision of a 8x PA scope for shooting groups.
Try some other loads and put your normal muzzle device on. You could just be at the limit of the barrel. The most accurate ARs I've used were with Kreiger barrels using handloaded 77 gr SMK or 53 gr Sierra's. Even then 0.7" is the best I could repeatedly expect from them. |
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Posted: 11/13/2019 4:04:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6GUNZ]
[#3]
1.2 MOA with factory ammo isn't bad. Especially if you're using either a 6 or 8 power scope. Whenever someone tells me they have an AR that shoots half MOA all day long I have to roll my eyes a little.
ETA: Shooting five shot groups and measuring extreme spread also isn't the best way to do things. It produces a lot of what I guess could be called statistical anomalies or something that can make for a very poor representation of any given rifles actual precision, or lack thereof. |
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Posted: 11/13/2019 4:19:43 AM EDT
[#4]
It’s al” about how far of the lands to your ogive.
Load up 5 different charge weights next time and on e you pick the best one, start as close to the lands as magazine length allows and work back ..002 at a time. You do own a comparitor, yes? |
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USA
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Posted: 11/13/2019 2:53:27 PM EDT
[#5]
I'd say it's about a .6moa mean radius of you prefer a different measure. I don't shoot with a lot of ar guys so I really only know what the Internet says is good accuracy. It's the most accurate ar15 I've owned so far, but all the talk of sub moa has got me yearning for it. Its not a far stretch for my desert tech. Should I be happy with how it's shooting now?
Like I said, I do reload, and I know it'll improve when I start doing that, but it won't be taking a 1.5moa gun to a .5 moa gun |
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Posted: 11/13/2019 3:43:49 PM EDT
[#6]
What round count? Stainless take some rounds to hit their stride. My best barrel shot like shit for 200 rounds.
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CA, USA
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Posted: 11/13/2019 3:50:28 PM EDT
[#7]
That is worse than my 20 year old JP Enterprises Grade 1 upper that has seen probably 3500-4500 rounds.
I still have some subMOA factory loads for it after all this time. In it's hey day several factory loads were subMOA for 5 shots. Best handloads were around 3/4 MOA for 10 shots. Try something like some Nosler Ballistic Tips, even 50-55grn NBTs are tough enough to survive a 1:7 twist and certainly tough enough to handle 1:8. My JP Enterprises gun is 1:9 and loved 40grn BlitzKings and Vmaxes. |
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Posted: 11/13/2019 7:17:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06]
[#8]
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/building-an-accurate-ar-robert-whitley-explains-what-works/
In case you missed one ... Lol And try a variety of ammo... there will be one that shoots great from your barrel. Including from places like "Creedmoor Sports", "Atlanta Arms", .... and or try a 75gr Hornady loaded bullet. |
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Posted: 11/13/2019 10:34:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6GUNZ]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PartyPewper:
Should I be happy with how it's shooting now? It's just the internet, just how it is. Everybody is 6 foot 2, lives in the Hamptons, has guns of steel, a model wife, the world's smartest purebred german shepherd from an elite line of aryan forefathers, and all their ARs shot half MOA all day long. If it's shooting close to one MOA now with factory ammo, then it shouldn't be out of the ballpark to expect handloads to do sub MOA, and that's basically all you can ask. Put it this way, if Crane builds an SPR that shoots one MOA with factory ammo they call it a success. I think that says more than stories you read on the internet. |
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Posted: 11/14/2019 7:17:22 AM EDT
[#10]
Hornady black 75 grain hpbt have been very consistent for me.
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Posted: 11/14/2019 5:18:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Check your optic mount for tightness after swapping to a higher power optic.
Check to see if your barrel nut is torqued on fully! Since you loctited it in, it may be a pain to undo, but you may need to shim it if the nut doesn't contact the large ring on the barrel extension. I have seen several good builds that were loose at the nut and shot horribly. Check your adjustable gas block to make sure you are fully open. You haven't found a load to taper it down yet, so make sure the gas block is consistent and open and not moving as the group is going. Check your magazine and make sure it is not angling the first round and feeding it in a goofy angle. You can mitigate some issues by putting a sighter round (I use cheap 55 grain Ball ammo) at the top and bottom of the mag so the five or ten middle rounds are chambered consistently by the rifle's action. If the feedlips are scraping and gouging your round, a tight match chamber may be inconsistent. You can also try single loading from an open bolt to ensure the rounds are in the same way each time, but that nullifies the joy of having a semi-auto for me. Your rig should be able to put them sub-MOA with the right load. Federal Gold Medal Match in 69 and 77 should shoot well in most barrels at your twist rate. I would also try some Nosler 55 grain loads or a good load with Sierra Blitzkings (HSM has a new one that shoot well for me in a 1 in 9 bull). As mentioned above, Hornady 75's should also do well! Please let us know what ammo you tried. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/14/2019 6:52:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty:
What round count? Stainless take some rounds to hit their stride. My best barrel shot like shit for 200 rounds. |
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Posted: 11/14/2019 8:35:35 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty:
What round count? Stainless take some rounds to hit their stride. My best barrel shot like shit for 200 rounds. Fresh barrel w/ zero rounds prior to testing these loads. One 3x group and the remaining are 4, with one being 5x since it was a pet load in my other barrel. Virgin brass, which in my experience, can lead to some “fliers” to the left with a RH twist barrel. 
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USA
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Posted: 11/14/2019 11:31:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Thanks for all the replies so far. I’ve only put 60 rounds through it, and I’m content with giving it some time, but I figure a premium hand lapped barrel should not need broken in before it stops shooting like a shotgun.
Optic is good and verified on other rifles. The barrel nut was torqued, backed off and torqued again. I’m not really capable of determining the nuts bearing on the extension shoulder. There was under 2 thousandths of slop in the receiver so not enough room to shim, and I’d hoped the loctite would take up the remaining space. I did NOT loctite the barrel but. I had the gas block fully closed and was hand feeding each round. I thought this would remove any inconsistencies due to recoil impulse and make for the most accurate test platform. Am I wrong in thinking that? I’ll consider the magazine feed trick when I get to using the mag again. So far I’ve used Hornady super performance 77gr, sig elite performance ammunition 77gr (this did ok), and Nosler 60gr match. I’m going to order some black hills and fggm for the next test. I really would like to see under 1 moa here. Can anyone recommend an instructional video on shooting precision ARs over bolt guns? I’d like to make sure my fundamentals are not contributing to the issue. Don’t have the money for a lead sled or the like. |
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Posted: 11/15/2019 12:33:36 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PartyPewper:
Thanks for all the replies so far. I’ve only put 60 rounds through it, and I’m content with giving it some time, but I figure a premium hand lapped barrel should not need broken in before it stops shooting like a shotgun. Optic is good and verified on other rifles. The barrel nut was torqued, backed off and torqued again. I’m not really capable of determining the nuts bearing on the extension shoulder. There was under 2 thousandths of slop in the receiver so not enough room to shim, and I’d hoped the loctite would take up the remaining space. I did NOT loctite the barrel but. I had the gas block fully closed and was hand feeding each round. I thought this would remove any inconsistencies due to recoil impulse and make for the most accurate test platform. Am I wrong in thinking that? I’ll consider the magazine feed trick when I get to using the mag again. So far I’ve used Hornady super performance 77gr, sig elite performance ammunition 77gr (this did ok), and Nosler 60gr match. I’m going to order some black hills and fggm for the next test. I really would like to see under 1 moa here. Can anyone recommend an instructional video on shooting precision ARs over bolt guns? I’d like to make sure my fundamentals are not contributing to the issue. Don’t have the money for a lead sled or the like. I apologize if you mentioned this already, but what torque did you use on the barrel nut? On another note, I wouldn't call 1ish MOA with factory ammo shooting like a shotgun. I agree it could be better, and the others might be right about it needing some break in time. Maybe the next time you go to the range run a few hundred rounds of cheap ammo through it before you shoot any more groups of the expensive stuff. Couldn't hurt anything. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/15/2019 2:56:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Yeah yeah I know its not a shotgun. I just got myself so dammed worked up while waiting for these barrels that my expectation may have got a bit inflated. I'm not going to remove the barrel right now. I tightened the nut to 60lbft to index properly, before the sleeve retainer dried. I'll try different ammo, and plink it a bit too break it in. Thanks for all the input. I'll share my .25moa all day groups in a couple days.
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Posted: 11/15/2019 3:10:14 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PartyPewper:
Yeah yeah I know its not a shotgun. I just got myself so dammed worked up while waiting for these barrels that my expectation may have got a bit inflated. I'm not going to remove the barrel right now. I tightened the nut to 60lbft to index properly, before the sleeve retainer dried. I'll try different ammo, and plink it a bit too break it in. Thanks for all the input. I'll share my .25moa all day groups in a couple days. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/15/2019 3:13:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: azmp5]
[#18]
Biggest thing is if you are going to reload it not.
If you arent, then buy a bunch if different ammo and see what your rifle likes and improve on your shooting skill. If you are going to reload, then same thing but get ready for alot of workups. Past that, why not just build a whole new rifle vs replacing everything. |
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Posted: 11/15/2019 1:59:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PartyPewper:
I had the gas block fully closed and was hand feeding each round. I thought this would remove any inconsistencies due to recoil impulse and make for the most accurate test platform. Am I wrong in thinking that? I’ll consider the magazine feed trick when I get to using the mag again. So far I’ve used Hornady super performance 77gr, sig elite performance ammunition 77gr (this did ok), and Nosler 60gr match. I’m going to order some black hills and fggm for the next test. I really would like to see under 1 moa here. I would turn on the gas fully and shoot in semi-auto using the magazine trick - this will help with recoil over single shot with no gas and it may shoot differently (likely better since it was designed to be this way). 69 Grainers are probably a good bet that your rifle will like them - Federal Gold Medal is my go-to for testing a new barrel. It sucks that you sometimes have to get 6 or more different factory loads through a rifle to start figuring out what it likes and what it doesn't, but it is worth it when you hit one it shoots well! I have had similar experiences hoping for a wunderbarrel. Each barrel is a law unto itself and your PacNor is going to shoot well once it is broken in and you find a good load for it. Shoot some plinking loads and then cleaning it with copper solvent after 5-20 rounds might help break it in faster as someone else stated! Lastly, people exaggerate the MOA thing all the time! .5" 3 shot groups at 25 yards are not MOA, but some guys think it is and like to brag about how they got a half inch gun with a crappy barrel and TULA ammo. Look at the MOA All Day Challenge thread and you will see real results from some really high end barrels! Only 3 out of 103 sub MOA rifles are half MOA. Lots of good barrels like the Rainier Arms Ultramatch, LaRue Stealth and White Oak that don't get MOA, even though others from those manufacturers are in the top of class! |
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Posted: 11/15/2019 9:07:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bfoosh06]
[#20]
oops...
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Posted: 11/15/2019 9:14:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MarkL1: Bingo! And as for us old farts shooting 1 moa all day long... quite a few of us still do. Lol , and quite a few... just don't bother to post about it every time. I am also very proud of my groups... having been self taught. So quite a few us enjoy "showing off" groups that surprised us. In other words, I feel like, if I can do ... anyone can. It does take quite a bit of practice. It sounds like you have great parts, so now it is up to you and the ammo. In other words , for the OP... don't give up. Especially if the barrel only has 60ish rds through it. FWIW... I have come to love this cleaning procedure, and it has produced some great groups ... VFG cleaning pellets, the needed pellet adaptor, Kroil oil, and JB Bore Polish. All available at Brownells. And waiting for a "X"% discount and free shipping from Brownells, will save you money on the "Hazardous Kroil" shipping cost. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaPzrAfemIE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPZoPuwEeg4 |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/15/2019 10:32:58 PM EDT
[#22]
Try a 55 grain flat base bullet instead of BTHP. Hornady American Gunner.
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USA
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Posted: 11/18/2019 8:33:52 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty:
What round count? Stainless take some rounds to hit their stride. My best barrel shot like shit for 200 rounds. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/18/2019 8:48:15 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PartyPewper:
I’ve only put 60 rounds through it, and I’m content with giving it some time, but I figure a premium hand lapped barrel should not need broken in before it stops shooting like a shotgun. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/21/2019 10:33:43 PM EDT
[#25]
That's a good point. I'm not sure if the barrels treatment beyond the lw50 steel they use, but I hadn't given much thought to the chamber imperfections vs the bore. I'll shoot a couple hundred bulk through it and see how it does later.
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IA, USA
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Posted: 11/23/2019 5:56:29 AM EDT
[#26]
Find someone that knows how to shoot an AR accurately stand behind you and watch you shoot. Shooting one of these is not the same as a bolt action. Way more going on.
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Posted: 11/23/2019 2:16:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tommee-boy-72:
Find someone that knows how to shoot an AR accurately stand behind you and watch you shoot. Shooting one of these is not the same as a bolt action. Way more going on. As above, I wouldn’t think much of it until it’s had 100-200 rounds through it and is still printing below expectations. |
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Posted: 11/23/2019 6:49:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By buffetdestroyer: Lastly, people exaggerate the MOA thing all the time! .5" 3 shot groups at 25 yards are not MOA, but some guys think it is and like to brag about how they got a half inch gun with a crappy barrel and TULA ammo. |
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Posted: 12/2/2019 1:55:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: buffetdestroyer]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brook99: ok so what is it then? The MOA All Day challenge shows great barrels shooting .5 MOA in one group and then going out to 1.25 MOA in the next group because of a bad flyer - hence why it is an average of the best and worst of the day. A cherry picked 1 inch group at 100 yards is not indicative of what the rifle does consistently - especially when only shooting 3 shots. Getting consistently under MOA with any rifle for 25 rounds over 5 groups is a hard thing to do! |
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Posted: 12/2/2019 6:32:28 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By buffetdestroyer: A three shot group at 25 yards measuring a half inch is 1.91 MOA and not indicative of what it can do sustainably over multiple shots. The MOA All Day challenge shows great barrels shooting .5 MOA in one group and then going out to 1.25 MOA in the next group because of a bad flyer - hence why it is an average of the best and worst of the day. A cherry picked 1 inch group at 100 yards is not indicative of what the rifle does consistently - especially when only shooting 3 shots. Getting consistently under MOA with any rifle for 25 rounds over 5 groups is a hard thing to do! 
Oops, I pulled it, that one doesn't count! Oh that was the wind, that one doesn't count either! Yep, half MOA all day long. 
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Posted: 12/8/2019 4:51:10 AM EDT
[#31]
For those of you with fliers... this article might help.
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Gas+tube+alignment%3A+Proper+gas+tube+alignment+in+the+AR-15+leads+to...-a0364199086 |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 12/10/2019 4:38:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Sounds like you've done everything right.
Maybe try tightening up the receivers if there is play. Probably not the cause if it's even slightly loose, but I like a tight mating upper and lower on my precision rigs. You mentioned you reload so I would just start trying to find a load for it. |
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Posted: 12/15/2019 12:21:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote History[b] Should I be happy with how it's shooting now? At the end you should be able to shoot an All Day MOA target and get sub MOA every time. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 12/15/2019 12:53:01 PM EDT
[#34]
I'm gonna say check if have issues with feed ramp scratching bullet jacket.a nick may cause inconsistent chambering.
Insure the gas tube centers well in the gas key and not banging on an edge to cause the bolt to" stutter" on chambering. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/12/2020 11:26:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PartyPewper]
[#35]
Thanks for all the input guys. I wasn't able to find much for real match grade ammo locally, but I found a bunch of 69gr smk pills. I loaded them up with some 8208xbr in a ladder test. I am VERY happy with the results! I sighted in with some m193 and it grouped at about 2.5moa, just like most of my other tests with various ammo. Below was my test. All shots at 100 yards with 5 shot groups, measured with the range buddy app
Unsuppressed 8208xbr 69gr smk 23.1gr .55moa 23.3gr 1.11moa 23.5gr .57moa 23.7gr .7moa 23.9gr .79moa Suppressed 8208xbr 69gr smk 23.1gr .52moa 23.3gr .6moa 23.5gr .61moa 23.7gr 1.15moa 23.9gr .88moa I think at around 23.5gr, and with a little more care during reloading, I should be able to print pretty consistently below 3/4moa. I'm looking forward to trying some 77smk next. I am elated that all the work into this gun was not for naught! Thanks again to everyone for the reality check and advice! |
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Posted: 2/12/2020 11:57:05 PM EDT
[#36]
When you get a chance load up some 53gr VMax over some 3031. It shot as well as 69-77gr SMKs. This was with a LaRue 18” 1-7 twist.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 2:44:37 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 6GUNZ:
It's always the flyers!
Oops, I pulled it, that one doesn't count! Oh that was the wind, that one doesn't count either! Yep, half MOA all day long. |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 1:27:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By buffetdestroyer:
A three shot group at 25 yards measuring a half inch is 1.91 MOA and not indicative of what it can do sustainably over multiple shots. The MOA All Day challenge shows great barrels shooting .5 MOA in one group and then going out to 1.25 MOA in the next group because of a bad flyer - hence why it is an average of the best and worst of the day. A cherry picked 1 inch group at 100 yards is not indicative of what the rifle does consistently - especially when only shooting 3 shots. Getting consistently under MOA with any rifle for 25 rounds over 5 groups is a hard thing to do! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By buffetdestroyer:
Originally Posted By Brook99: ok so what is it then? The MOA All Day challenge shows great barrels shooting .5 MOA in one group and then going out to 1.25 MOA in the next group because of a bad flyer - hence why it is an average of the best and worst of the day. A cherry picked 1 inch group at 100 yards is not indicative of what the rifle does consistently - especially when only shooting 3 shots. Getting consistently under MOA with any rifle for 25 rounds over 5 groups is a hard thing to do! |
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Posted: 2/13/2020 1:53:18 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CaliContractor:
I wouldn't put to much faith in that moa challenge, if I recall properly the top few turned out to be liars and people of questionable integrity. I may be wrong and if I am I apologized ahead of time. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2020 12:15:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MS556]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PartyPewper: That's a good point. I'm not sure if the barrels treatment beyond the lw50 steel they use, but I hadn't given much thought to the chamber imperfections vs the bore. I'll shoot a couple hundred bulk through it and see how it does later. Came here to suggest doing a formal barrel break-in to smooth out the throat reamer marks. Theoretically, this is not so much an accuracy improver as it is to slow down copper fouling, which can cause accuracy to degrade. You have to remove the copper regularly during the break-in or you are just laying more copper down and will never get it out. I have a Lilja match barrel on my precision AR and followed Dan Lilja’s break-in procedure. See link below. I can’t say whether it helped, but I have very little copper fouling now and can put more rounds down range before cleaning. The barrel is sub 1/2 MOA capable with handloads it likes if I do my part. Someone suggested flat base target bullets in the 50-55 grain range. I agree for 100 yard groups. That will likely produce best accuracy at 100 yards with proper case prep and worked up handloads, but for now try to break in the barrel with some cheap ammo and switch to good match ammo and see if groups are better. I’d not be surprised to hear that you have a lot of copper in the throat. Use a good copper solvent like CR-10 or Butch’s Bore Shine. https://riflebarrels.com/support/centerfire-maintenance/ |
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Posted: 4/18/2020 2:23:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KalmanPhilter]
[#41]
Before giving up on the barrel or when running a ladder of loads, if you have an optic that is parallax adjustable, try that. Those 1-8X scopes are for combat accuracy, not precision bench rest shooting. At 100 yards if you don’t sit perfectly in the eye box of a fixed parallax scope you could easily get a 0.5 MOA parallax error.
ETA, just noticed you tried a Vortex 6-24X. I’d keep an optic like that on the upper for testing and load development if it has parallax adjustment. |
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