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Posted: 3/20/2021 11:05:19 PM EDT
Purchased a Larue Ultimate Upper configured with a 20” 5.56 Stealth barrel. This will be my first scoped rifle. I’m looking to spend around $700 but can go up to 1K on some glass.  I always talk myself into spending more than I want to. If someone that knows scopes and is tracking sales can help me out that would be appreciated. I will also keep an eye out for sales if I can get a few recommendations. I will lurk around here and read. Let me know what other literature can help get me started. To this point most of my experience is with iron sights and red dots.
Link Posted: 3/21/2021 12:47:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Anastasios] [#1]
Just bought my first 'nice' scope, and mounted it on a DMR inspired rifle build. It's the Vortex Viper PST Gen ll 2-10x32 MRAD. Cost about $760 during a one day internet sale for Cabela's club members. You can find them for $849 every day from multiple outlets. I think MSRP is 1100.

I spent months researching scopes, and this has pretty much everything I want a scope for this style rifle, and nothing I dont. Mounted it earlier this week and spent this evening bore sighting it on a stop sign down the street. Then I ranged the sign. Do you know stop signs are 7.9 mils (.79 meters) measured across the flats? Using the reticle to range the sign put it at a distance of 202.5 meters from my location. This is already fun and I haven't even shot it yet.
Link Posted: 3/21/2021 2:12:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: GreenMushroom] [#2]
First you need to decide if you're wanting a low power capable of fast close range shooting or if you're going to do long range off a bench or bipod. In your price range I'd look at Japanese scopes made by Low. They make the vortex razors, trijicon credo etc. There also seem to be some nice scopes coming from the Philippines like the vortex viper pst2s. Keep an eye out on europtic for sales. I got a vortex lht 3-15-50 for 800 and its an awesome scope for the money.

If you're looking more long range consider one of these. Seems like it would be a great starter scope. Thinking of picking one up.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020586712

Eta Midway links are wonky. Bushnell dmr2. The illuminated version is 800$ right now.
Link Posted: 3/21/2021 9:14:55 AM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 3/21/2021 9:18:45 AM EDT
[#4]
For a 223 rifle I like a 2-10 or a 3-15. Look at reticles you like. I personally like locking turrets and a zero stop, now you do want a scope to track accurately.

LOW has made so really good scopes for quite a few companies so spend time doing your research.
Link Posted: 3/21/2021 9:34:55 AM EDT
[#5]
You have to make a list of reasonable and practical applications for the rifle you're putting the scope on. For example, 5.56 is limited by distance and is not in any way shape or form a long distance round. 800 meters is quite a stretch, 600 being much more reasonable.

Is weight a concern? It is for me as I spend hours carrying the rifle. for instance, The 2-10 PST gen2 is 26oz compared to the DMR2 34oz.

Some reticle designs are too messy for me, or have only the very center of the crosshair or dot illuminated, or a crosshair that is too thick for my liking. The PST reticle is simple yet effective with just the right amount of crosshair illuminated to use in cqb as a big aiming reference when on low power.

How much power? Low end, I find 2.5x my max for shooting comfortably with both eyes open. I haven't shot 10x at 600yds+ yet, but I think it will be enough.

How close will the parallax  adjust? 20yds on the PST2. That REALLY helps in cqb dry fire drills.

I compared all the scopes in the class, and was ready to spend 1500. I found a Nightforce NX8 1-8x at a lgs for about that price and spent a little time looking through it. The parallax is non adjustable and set at 125meters. The eye box is horrible. There is image distortion. You don't always get what you pay for.

The bottom line is figure out price range, then what you need, then what you like. If nothing fits in that price, go up if you can afford it, and start comparing.

Link Posted: 3/23/2021 11:16:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JUDGED12carried6] [#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DonofKalifornia:
For a 223 rifle I like a 2-10 or a 3-15. Look at reticles you like. I personally like locking turrets and a zero stop, now you do want a scope to track accurately.

LOW has made so really good scopes for quite a few companies so spend time doing your research.
View Quote


I think this is the camp I’m in. I have Acogs and red dots. Want something for precision out to 600~.

Ive been slow reporting back to my own thread. Works got me tired. Thanks for everyone’s input so far.

So many reticle options ?

Not sure what adjustment type is better than the other moa/mil ?

Turret types ?

Off to read some more.




Link Posted: 3/23/2021 11:41:15 PM EDT
[#7]
https://www.eurooptic.com/RZR-1558-Razor-HD-LH-2-10x40-Riflescope-with-HSR-4---RZR-155.aspx

https://www.eurooptic.com/RZR-6638-Razor-HD-LH-15-8x32-Riflescope-with-G4-BDC-RZR-6638.aspx

These are examples of what I'm talking about. Quality Japanese glass at great prices. I have the 3-15 2nd gen and its very nice. Got mine when they were 800 but the price gone up.
Link Posted: 3/24/2021 7:56:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Anastasios] [#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JUDGED12carried6:


I think this is the camp I’m in. I have Acogs and red dots. Want something for precision out to 600~.

Ive been slow reporting back to my own thread. Works got me tired. Thanks for everyone’s input so far.

So many reticle options ?

Not sure what adjustment type is better than the other moa/mil ?

Turret types ?

Off to read some more.




View Quote


MRAD everything. You won't be sorry if you take a little time to learn it.

ETA and FFP
Link Posted: 3/24/2021 8:47:13 AM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 3/24/2021 9:12:23 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GreenMushroom:
First you need to decide if you're wanting a low power capable of fast close range shooting or if you're going to do long range off a bench or bipod. In your price range I'd look at Japanese scopes made by Low. They make the vortex razors, trijicon credo etc. There also seem to be some nice scopes coming from the Philippines like the vortex viper pst2s. Keep an eye out on europtic for sales. I got a vortex lht 3-15-50 for 800 and its an awesome scope for the money.

If you're looking more long range consider one of these. Seems like it would be a great starter scope. Thinking of picking one up.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020586712

Eta Midway links are wonky. Bushnell dmr2. The illuminated version is 800$ right now.
View Quote
These are great optics at an excellent price. For your budget it's probably what I would buy. (Assuming your focus is more on distance shooting.)
Link Posted: 3/24/2021 12:31:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rob01:


For reticle, a Christmas tree style is very good for holds or dialing. The two I will link below have them and are in your price range.

Mil vs moa is a wasted argument as both work and both are angular so not linked to any linear system. If you hear anyone say I uses moa because I like inches then you know that is a person who you need to take their opinion with a grain of salt. If you have buddies that use either and you shoot with them then get what they use. If you are used to one or the other then go with that. No wrong answer. All you do is run your ballistic program in moa or mils and dial or hold the data. Neither is easier than the other or more accurate.

Easily hand adjustable turrets are nice for a lot of dialing. A zero stop is nice. Both below have zero stops.

As to power range, the 3-15x will work but if you want to see the target better then obviously the 5-25 will give more power. You can dial it down if you don’t need 25x. I would say definitely get a FFP scope so you can use the reticle on any power for holds.

https://www.eurooptic.com/Vortex-Viper-PST-5-25x50-EBR-2C-MRAD-PST-5258.aspx

https://www.eurooptic.com/Vortex-Viper-PST-3-15x44-EBR-2D-MRAD-FFP-PST-3157.aspx

View Quote


That 3-15 looks really nice and if the specs on europtic are correct has a huge field of view. Can anyone comment on the eyebox and glass? I have an accupoint 1-6, bushy 1-6.5 smrs, and razor lht 3-15-50. Is it in that ballpark?
Link Posted: 3/24/2021 1:05:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 3/24/2021 9:18:35 PM EDT
[#13]
Pst and bobro mount on the way. This is all your fault op
Link Posted: 3/26/2021 9:59:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JUDGED12carried6] [#14]
So I have been digging around and came back with a few questions.

I think I want a ffp reticle as I’m understanding that this is best for taking accurate shots at various distances. I read a drawback is a very small and illegible reticle at less magnification. Is this true for say a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 3-15x44? I’m looking (so far) at these below. One was recommended above and the other I found seems to have better glass (you tell me).

This new upper (again 20” Larue UU in 5.56) will be shooting factory loads of imi 77gr. As that’s what I stacked deep. Reloading won’t happen till prices and availability come back. While I’m realistically just shooting paper and watermelon I don’t care for the max scope range to be more than what is effective to take out small game.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 3/26/2021 10:40:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Vortex doesn't list the PST-3157 on their website.
Link Posted: 3/26/2021 10:46:38 PM EDT
[#16]
I just got the 600$ one form europtic. Initial impressions are very good. Very nice eye box and fov. Its quite easy to get behind even on 15 holding in my hands. Reticle becomes useable at 8x in a pinch and 10x for sure. Turrets seem nice but thats not really my thing.

As far as glass compared to my razor lht I'd give a slight edge to the razor but the pst is very good. On 15x the eyebox on the pst is noticeably better. Oddly the pst seems to have 2 or 3x more magnification than the lht. Size and weight wise it's a beast compared the the lht. If it ever ceases to function it can be used as a blunt instrument.

Link Posted: 3/26/2021 10:48:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By wtfboombrb:
Vortex doesn't list the PST-3157 on their website.
View Quote


It might be a europtic only model. I think I read my lht is.
Link Posted: 3/27/2021 12:18:09 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JUDGED12carried6:
So I have been digging around and came back with a few questions.

I think I want a ffp reticle as I’m understanding that this is best for taking accurate shots at various distances. I read a drawback is a very small and illegible reticle at less magnification. Is this true for say a Vortex Viper PST Gen II 3-15x44? I’m looking (so far) at these below. One was recommended above and the other I found seems to have better glass (you tell me).

This new upper (again 20” Larue UU in 5.56) will be shooting factory loads of imi 77gr. As that’s what I stacked deep. Reloading won’t happen till prices and availability come back. While I’m realistically just shooting paper and watermelon I don’t care for the max scope range to be more than what is effective to take out small game.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/402445/9C931E1A-AE72-4D7A-AC06-881B9D3D2048_jpe-1881285.JPG
View Quote


FFP is faster to range on object using the reticle. The reticle does get smaller as you zoom out, and subtensions are useless at 2X on my scope, but why would I need to use them at low power? If I use 2-3X, it's going to be for very close range.

Here's what you're going to do. Get familiar with milliradians starting now. Search and read. Begin thinking in MRADs, centimeters, decimeters, and meters.

Sounds like a pain, but it becomes simple once applied to shooting.

(Size of object in meters  X  1000) ÷ measurement of object in reticle subtensions = distance in meters.

A stop sign is .79 meters from flat to flat. At an unknown distance It measures 3.9 mil using the reticle.

.79 X 1000 = 790.

790 ÷ 3.9 = 202.56 meters.

Learn the dimensions of the targets you'll be shooting. Hunters learn the physical dimensions of their prey. Snipers learn human dimensions plus dimensions of things humans are often near, particularly in urban environments where they can pre range objects at various distances. Learn how fast your prey runs, and how much lead they take at various distances. Learn how to read wind.

Also, become intimate with the ballistics of your ammo. Use an online ballistic calculator to get a rough idea for the range you want to zero at for the maximum practical point blank range. Shoot at various distances to confirm.

The vortex scope manual is good for info.

As for the scopes you listed, it appears they're identical except for the reticle design. I prefer simpler because I can easily make out the subtensions quickly. I went with the 2-10 because it's lighter in weight, 2X is quite comfortable viewing both eyes open up close, and the eyebox is huge. It also has the simpler reticle. I might go for a Christmas tree type if shooting a long range gun. I'd probably get a Razor for LR.
Link Posted: 3/27/2021 1:16:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MS556] [#19]
Originally Posted By JUDGED12carried6:
Purchased a Larue Ultimate Upper configured with a 20” 5.56 Stealth barrel. This will be my first scoped rifle. I’m looking to spend around $700 but can go up to 1K on some glass.  I always talk myself into spending more than I want to. If someone that knows scopes and is tracking sales can help me out that would be appreciated. I will also keep an eye out for sales if I can get a few recommendations. I will lurk around here and read. Let me know what other literature can help get me started. To this point most of my experience is with iron sights and red dots.
View Quote


Here is an excellent blog on optics:

https://opticsthoughts.com/

Ilya is a member here (Darklordofoptics).   He is perhaps the most knowledgeable and objective source of information on the subject.
Link Posted: 3/27/2021 2:48:49 PM EDT
[#20]
Thanks. Briefly checked it out. Will dig in some more later.
Link Posted: 3/27/2021 3:28:38 PM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 3/27/2021 4:19:13 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JUDGED12carried6:
Thanks. Briefly checked it out. Will dig in some more later.
View Quote


Not to diminish anything anyone is saying here but keep in mind many on this subforum are experts in this subject matter with skills that took many years to acquire. While I'm sure they're explaining in what to them is very basic terms its way over my head.  I have a range finder and I'll download a ballistic calculator and go punch some paper and ring some gongs and then decide how far down the rabbit hole i want to go.
Link Posted: 3/27/2021 6:31:45 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rob01:


You do not have to think in metric with mils. Big mistake people make thinking this. You can do the same thing with imperial.

Target size in yards x 1000 / target reading in mils = target distance in yards

Also using a tool like the mildot master makes ranging very easy but ranging with a reticle is a dying art anyways and a cheap LRF will get you closer especially if you are guesstimating the target size to begin with.

I have used mils for almost 30 years and never once used the metric system. No one I know who shoots with mils use the metric system.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rob01:
Originally Posted By wtfboombrb:


Here's what you're going to do. Get familiar with milliradians starting now. Search and read. Begin thinking in MRADs, centimeters, decimeters, and meters.

Sounds like a pain, but it becomes simple once applied to shooting.

(Size of object in meters  X  1000) ÷ measurement of object in reticle subtensions = distance in meters.

A stop sign is .79 meters from flat to flat. At an unknown distance It measures 3.9 mil using the reticle.

.79 X 1000 = 790.

790 ÷ 3.9 = 202.56 meters.

Learn the dimensions of the targets you'll be shooting. Hunters learn the physical dimensions of their prey. Snipers learn human dimensions plus dimensions of things humans are often near, particularly in urban environments where they can pre range objects at various distances. Learn how fast your prey runs, and how much lead they take at various distances. Learn how to read wind.



You do not have to think in metric with mils. Big mistake people make thinking this. You can do the same thing with imperial.

Target size in yards x 1000 / target reading in mils = target distance in yards

Also using a tool like the mildot master makes ranging very easy but ranging with a reticle is a dying art anyways and a cheap LRF will get you closer especially if you are guesstimating the target size to begin with.

I have used mils for almost 30 years and never once used the metric system. No one I know who shoots with mils use the metric system.


I didn't make a mistake.
Link Posted: 3/27/2021 6:45:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 3/27/2021 11:00:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rob01:


You made a choice but one that is not needed. It’s a mistake to tell people they have to use meters with mils.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rob01:
Originally Posted By wtfboombrb:


I didn't make a mistake.


You made a choice but one that is not needed. It’s a mistake to tell people they have to use meters with mils.


I didn't tell anyone they have to use the metric system, I'm only doing OP a favor. The metric system is superior.
Link Posted: 3/28/2021 12:52:29 AM EDT
[#26]
Can either of you comment on my previous post?
Link Posted: 3/28/2021 2:59:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: GreenMushroom] [#27]
The 7 is the newer reticle but in reviews a lot of people like the 2 better. The first focal makes the drops accurate no matter what magnification. Second focal are only accurate at max power. The drops become really usable on 10x. You could use them in a pinch at 8x or even lower. I can see using it on 10x a lot because the eyebox is much more forgiving and the fov is better. It also has the tactical turrets so you can dial if you want. The illumination is quite bright for a scope of this type. Not quite aimpoint bright  but impressive.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/viper-pst2-3-15-as-a-starter-scope.7069101/

On 3x the center reticle is very fine but it has thick posts that come in from the sides and bottom that act as a kind of bracket for fast up close shooting. With the big eyebox and wide fov it should work well but I haven't tried it yet. My smrs has a similar reticle and its awesome. As you increase power the side posts draw away and the fine center becomes the long range reticle. U can see the tree by 6x, its small but probably doable on 8x, and I'd consider fully functional on 10x.
Link Posted: 3/28/2021 8:48:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Link Posted: 3/28/2021 9:09:55 AM EDT
[#29]
Link Posted: 3/28/2021 11:05:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: GreenMushroom] [#30]
Thanks. Do you know if that's a europtic only? I had read somewhere that my lht was. Something like they made a couple changes like parralex having different marks and make a big batch that europtic or Midway sell well below msrp of the regular model.

So do the reticles usually become usable at a % of total power or generally at a given power. Say 8x on my 3-15 is roughly 50%. Would the 5-25 be usable at 8x or more like 12x (50%). Where would the higher mag ffp lpvo fit into this like the credo/nx8/razor/March 1-8/1-10?

Op didn't really specify his needs but im looking for some basic competency at 500-800 yds with minimal practice. I've recently picked up a couple carbines and NV in addition to the heavier rifles and it all requires training time. My plan is to learn my reticle holds and use a lrf (leica 2700). After some initial practice I'm hoping I can maintain a rudimentary skill level by getting out once a month or so.
Link Posted: 3/28/2021 11:39:57 AM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 3/29/2021 2:22:11 AM EDT
[#32]
Is the 7C worth 300 over the 2D?

Or at that price point should I be looking at an entirely different scope?
Link Posted: 3/29/2021 7:13:54 AM EDT
[#33]
I don't think so. Imo you'd gain a lot more with 300$ worth of IMI 77grain to practice with. The main difference i can tell is the c has an open center and the d the cross hairs are continuous. Me or you probably wouldn't notice unless one of these guys pointed it out.

https://blog.scopelist.com/ebr-2c-vs-ebr-7c-reticles-everything-you-wanted-to-know/#EBR-7C_vs_EBR-2C_Comparison
Link Posted: 3/29/2021 10:20:19 AM EDT
[#34]
Link Posted: 3/29/2021 10:21:55 AM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 3/29/2021 10:35:32 AM EDT
[#36]
I'm aware. I'm assuming he knows what the 2d looks like.
Link Posted: 3/29/2021 10:51:48 AM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 3/29/2021 4:13:13 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rob01:


That would be up to the end user to determine. Both are plenty usable for holds. Do you like a closed center reticle or a dot? Do you need the whole reticle to illuminate?

And no for the price point. Even with the 7C it's in the price range for similar optics.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Rob01:
Originally Posted By JUDGED12carried6:
Is the 7C worth 300 over the 2D?

Or at that price point should I be looking at an entirely different scope?


That would be up to the end user to determine. Both are plenty usable for holds. Do you like a closed center reticle or a dot? Do you need the whole reticle to illuminate?

And no for the price point. Even with the 7C it's in the price range for similar optics.


I think I would prefer an open center or cross hair over a dot. Can I cross hair blur blur a target under a certain circumstance? If so maybe I want open and visualize the axis?

I understand the difference between the three models we have been talking about. I assume I would want the whole reticle to light up of trying to pinpoint a shot under low light conditions. With just the cross hair illuminated I would be applying a little Kentucky windage maybe? So far the 7C is the most detailed reticle for aid in calculating a shot is that right?
Link Posted: 3/29/2021 4:43:49 PM EDT
[#39]
Link Posted: 3/29/2021 7:14:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Is the open center so you can see the poi? If so I think I can appreciate that. I have good eye site and think this would work for me. Blinding the target with either other reticle doesn’t look to be an issue as the dot and crosshairs appear to be quite small. Possibly illumination level or fatigue come into play with that. If I’m being honest with myself I could be happy with either three. Times I plan on using in low light honestly not often. I think it is legit to be prepared for such cases. When I’m new to something I ask a lot of questions. My concerns may be unfounded but I look forward too everyone’s responses either way to help make an informed purchase.
Link Posted: 3/30/2021 4:34:17 PM EDT
[#41]
Link Posted: 4/2/2021 9:32:26 PM EDT
[#42]
How does this compare to the Vortex scopes I’ve been kicking tires on? Deep discounted scope that is being sold for much more on optics planet. Pros and cons?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020619511?pid=961295
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