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Posted: 5/21/2020 12:01:05 PM EDT
I needed a little more clarity on his question because he said hunting then threw a ridiculous 2k yard number but i have thought about answers. I started to get into the coversation with the word ethical but got cut off... I think there is the ethical hunting limit of any cartridge then there is the how far can i push the cartridge...

Anyway...whats a good starting point. I watch a lot of the gunwerks videos. I think most of their 1000 yard elk shots are 7mm rmag that they build? 300 wmag is prob the most common big game gun... Then there 338 lapua which i would think is more likely to be pretty heavy for humping...

Then i can say 6.5cm and 308 should stay under 800 yards but push them out to 1500 yds to bang some steel.....
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 12:11:32 PM EDT
IMO, the new Sig Cross looks pretty interesting as a hunting focused precision option.

Personally, I don't like high recoil, I would get something on the smaller side of the spectrum like 6.5 Creedmoor.  That will be far cheaper to practice with than a .338, also quite a bit lighter to hump.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 12:30:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By urbanredneck:
I needed a little more clarity on his question because he said hunting then threw a ridiculous 2k yard number but i have thought about answers. I started to get into the coversation with the word ethical but got cut off... I think there is the ethical hunting limit of any cartridge then there is the how far can i push the cartridge...

Anyway...whats a good starting point. I watch a lot of the gunwerks videos. I think most of their 1000 yard elk shots are 7mm rmag that they build? 300 wmag is prob the most common big game gun... Then there 338 lapua which i would think is more likely to be pretty heavy for humping...

Then i can say 6.5cm and 308 should stay under 800 yards but push them out to 1500 yds to bang some steel.....
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Sounds to me like a Dude that is pipe dreaming. An animal can move a long ways by the time a bullet makes 2000 yards. Let alone 1000 yards. If he disregards ethics than he's not worth wasting your breath on.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 12:39:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sparkyD:
 
Sounds to me like a Dude that­ is pipe dreaming. An animal can move a long ways by the time a­ bullet makes 2000 yards. Let alone 1000 yards. If he disregards ethics than he's not worth ­wasting your breath on.
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The guy is from ny, does some archery and carried a 30-30 he tagged along on a hunt. So his question was genuine but just no experience of where to start and what to ask.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 12:59:58 PM EDT
Any 300 mag pushing a 215 Hybrid 2800+ will get it done.

Long Range Only

Long Range Hunting

Look for posts from user Broz.

Regardless of your stance on ethics, the technical capabilities are proven at this point.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 1:15:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2020 1:15:24 PM EDT by Genin]
First the "hunter" needs to figure out how many foot pounds of energy he believes is ethically required to take game.  For the sake of discussion, let's set 1000 foot pounds of energy for deer, antelope, mountain goats/sheep, elk, etc as the minimum necessary for ethical hunting.  (I would want more for elk, but this is just for discussion)  Then, he can evaluate various cartridges and see which at which distances various cartridges still have 1000 ft/lbs of energy.   That will set his maximum possible range.

After figuring out max possible range, then he has to learn the marksmanship skills necessary to place that bullet within the lethal kill area of the game he is hunting.   Then he has to learn how to shoot that well in field conditions where he has to figure distance, wind, shot angle, and whether he can recover the animal if he shoots the animal in that location.  

I think if he is smart enough, he will soon realize that what he previously thought of as long distance hunting is a much more daunting proposition than he first thought.

Just because I can hit something at 1000 yards, doesn't mean I want to lug the heavy of a rifle up and down a 7000 foot mountian, then have to lug my kill back out.  

Hitting something with a bullet on a rifle range is vastly different than trying to hit something after hiking 4 miles up to the 7000 foot level of a mountain with all your gear, and only getting 30 seconds to quit huffing and puffing, and set up your shot.   IF he can do all that with his first shot, then I'll tip my hat to him.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 1:18:20 PM EDT
Going from a 30-30 to something capable of killing shit at 2000yrds is gonna be a learning curve within itself.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 1:37:41 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Genin:
First the "hunter" needs to figure out how many foot pounds of energy he believes is ethically required to take game.  For the sake of discussion, let's set 1000 foot pounds of energy for deer, antelope, mountain goats/sheep, elk, etc as the minimum necessary for ethical hunting.  (I would want more for elk, but this is just for discussion)  Then, he can evaluate various cartridges and see which at which distances various cartridges still have 1000 ft/lbs of energy.   That will set his maximum possible range.

After figuring out max possible range, then he has to learn the marksmanship skills necessary to place that bullet within the lethal kill area of the game he is hunting.   Then he has to learn how to shoot that well in field conditions where he has to figure distance, wind, shot angle, and whether he can recover the animal if he shoots the animal in that location.  

I think if he is smart enough, he will soon realize that what he previously thought of as long distance hunting is a much more daunting proposition than he first thought.

Just because I can hit something at 1000 yards, doesn't mean I want to lug the heavy of a rifle up and down a 7000 foot mountian, then have to lug my kill back out.  

Hitting something with a bullet on a rifle range is vastly different than trying to hit something after hiking 4 miles up to the 7000 foot level of a mountain with all your gear, and only getting 30 seconds to quit huffing and puffing, and set up your shot.   IF he can do all that with his first shot, then I'll tip my hat to him.
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I disagree with large energy requirements for ethical kills.  Shot placement is what really matters, followed by adequate penetration, energy then comes in behind as it lends itself to larger wound channels.  A poorly placed .338 Lapua Magnum shot will make a far less ethical kill than a well placed 5.56.

That said, the individual being discussed has no place doing long range hunting anytime soon.  He clearly doesn't have the skill to make ethical shots at distance.  He needs to burn a barrel out on distant targets and then he can decide what he wants to use to hunt.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 2:21:56 PM EDT
Sounds like a fantasy sniper and mentioned 'hunting' as a cover.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 2:58:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost:

I disagree with large energy requirements for ethical kills.  Shot placement is what really matters, followed by adequate penetration, energy then comes in behind as it lends itself to larger wound channels.  A poorly placed .338 Lapua Magnum shot will make a far less ethical kill than a well placed 5.56.

That said, the individual being discussed has no place doing long range hunting anytime soon.  He clearly doesn't have the skill to make ethical shots at distance.  He needs to burn a barrel out on distant targets and then he can decide what he wants to use to hunt.
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I never said large energy requirement were needed.  I said a hunter has to decide for himself what his energy requirements are.  I completely agree with you that shot placement trumps energy any day.  A heart shot with a 22 long rifle beats the hell out of a gut shot with a 338 Lapua mag.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 4:42:40 PM EDT
Hmm, there are a few cartridges that could do it, the problem is being a good enough trigger puller to do it with a topend of the magnum world rifle......I shoot a 300rum,loading a 230 berger at 3220fps... have killed animals well past 600 yards, Trust the rifle, the ammo and my abilities..I sure wouldn't take such a shot, nor do I believe there are many in this world who can/should....Heck , mine is well over 2300 ft lbs. of energy at a 1000 yards, it is still supersonic past 2000 yards, I have gotten good hits at 2000 yards on metal, and I would never think it was ethical for me to take a shot on game at that distance..At a 1000 yards, under perfect conditions..maybe...but not much further and I have shot this cartridge at distance regularly since it was released by the maker...
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 5:07:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2020 8:12:58 PM EDT by urbanredneck]
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Originally Posted By Genin:


I never said large energy requirement were needed.  I said a hunter has to decide for himself what his energy requirements are.  I completely agree with you that shot placement trumps energy any day.  A heart shot with a 22 long rifle beats the hell out of a gut shot with a 338 Lapua mag.
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Originally Posted By Genin:
Originally Posted By jaqufrost:

I disagree with large energy requirements for ethical kills.  Shot placement is what really matters, followed by adequate penetration, energy then comes in behind as it lends itself to larger wound channels.  A poorly placed .338 Lapua Magnum shot will make a far less ethical kill than a well placed 5.56.

That said, the individual being discussed has no place doing long range hunting anytime soon.  He clearly doesn't have the skill to make ethical shots at distance.  He needs to burn a barrel out on distant targets and then he can decide what he wants to use to hunt.


I never said large energy requirement were needed.  I said a hunter has to decide for himself what his energy requirements are.  I completely agree with you that shot placement trumps energy any day.  A heart shot with a 22 long rifle beats the hell out of a gut shot with a 338 Lapua mag.



No but maintaining 1000 ft/lbs on target does a better job for a lung shot than a 22 cal putting out 300 lbs at subsonic speeds because you thought you could nail a deer with a year shot.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 8:10:09 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By jaqufrost:

IMO, the new Sig Cross looks pretty interesting as a hunting focused precision option.

Personally, I don't like high recoil, I would get something on the smaller side of the spectrum like 6.5 Creedmoor.  That will be far cheaper to practice with than a .338, also quite a bit lighter to hump.
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that's what I was leaning towards. Something like the savage long range hunter. Gotta look a tables on 6.5 vs 7mm options.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 8:12:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Hmm, there are a few cartridges that could do it, the problem is being a good enough trigger puller to do it with a topend of the magnum world rifle......I shoot a 300rum,loading a 230 berger at 3220fps... have killed animals well past 600 yards, Trust the rifle, the ammo and my abilities..I sure wouldn't take such a shot, nor do I believe there are many in this world who can/should....Heck , mine is well over 2300 ft lbs. of energy at a 1000 yards, it is still supersonic past 2000 yards, I have gotten good hits at 2000 yards on metal, and I would never think it was ethical for me to take a shot on game at that distance..At a 1000 yards, under perfect conditions..maybe...but not much further and I have shot this cartridge at distance regularly since it was released by the maker...
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Who won the short mag market? Rum or wsm......
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 8:25:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By urbanredneck:


Who won the short mag market? Rum or wsm......
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LOL, which one is actually the better cartridge?
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 8:33:46 PM EDT
1100 yards is probably maximum realistic range with most long range calibers if you are hunting.   You have multiple issues to consider.  Once impact velocity drops below 1400 fps, even soft jacketed target bullets likely won't upset too much even when they strike bone.  Stout bullets will likely just pencil through to whatever depth they can achieve at a low impact velocity.  Then you have to deal with finding / tracking the animal you hit at long range.  It's a ridiculous expectation for all but the most experienced shooters to make a kill at 1100 yards.  2k is out of the question.  Great snipers kill men at those kinds of distances, but they don't need to find and recover them.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 11:34:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By urbanredneck:



The guy is from ny, does some archery and carried a 30-30 he tagged along on a hunt. So his question was genuine but just no experience of where to start and what to ask.
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Sounds to me like you need to take him on a prairie dog hunt. That was the best teacher I had for learning the long range game.
Link Posted: 5/22/2020 11:53:18 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By sparkyD:

Sounds to me like you need to take him on a prairie dog hunt. That was the best teacher I had for learning the long range game.
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Actually PDs was what initiated the conversation.

Link Posted: 5/22/2020 11:57:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2020 11:58:19 AM EDT by urbanredneck]
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Originally Posted By AL_Safety:
1100 yards is probably maximum realistic range with most long range calibers if you are hunting.   You have multiple issues to consider.  Once impact velocity drops below 1400 fps, even soft jacketed target bullets likely won't upset too much even when they strike bone.  Stout bullets will likely just pencil through to whatever depth they can achieve at a low impact velocity.  Then you have to deal with finding / tracking the animal you hit at long range.  It's a ridiculous expectation for all but the most experienced shooters to make a kill at 1100 yards.  2k is out of the question.  Great snipers kill men at those kinds of distances, but they don't need to find and recover them.
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Yeah...I know the 2k was ridiculous. These guys and Gunwerks and their Long Range Pursuit channel shows me what I think the limit for a competent hunter. Their videos show some great shot, I just wonder how many bad shots they don't show. But still, beautiful country, lots of long shots required.

As I was saying earlier, I think they build most of their rifles in 7mm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62mX6B3i5Rc

Long Range Pursuit | S4 E8 Idaho Elk and Mule Deer Extravaganza
Link Posted: 5/22/2020 1:01:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By urbanredneck:



No but maintaining 1000 ft/lbs on target does a better job for a lung shot than a 22 cal putting out 300 lbs at subsonic speeds because you thought you could nail a deer with a year shot.
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The 1000 ft/lb number was specified as only for sake of discussion.  It is up to the hunter to determine how many ft/lbs and what sectional density they require to be successful.  I still agree that shot placement is vastly more important than whether the bullet has 500, 1000, or 2000 ft/lbs of energy on target.  As long as the bullet is placed properly, and has sufficient sectional density to get where you want it, it should do the job.
Link Posted: 5/22/2020 3:15:16 PM EDT
If he has to ask, I know we won't even come close to hitting at that distance.

It is a very specific situation.

I love long range shooting and it's what most of my shooting is. But my longest shot on a deer? 50 yards. The other was 40.
Link Posted: 5/22/2020 3:35:02 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By urbanredneck:



Yeah...I know the 2k was ridiculous. These guys and Gunwerks and their Long Range Pursuit channel shows me what I think the limit for a competent hunter. Their videos show some great shot, I just wonder how many bad shots they don't show. But still, beautiful country, lots of long shots required.

As I was saying earlier, I think they build most of their rifles in 7mm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62mX6B3i5Rc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62mX6B3i5Rc
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Gunwerks isnt doing too well these days.
Link Posted: 5/22/2020 5:54:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ziarifleman:

Gunwerks isnt doing too well these days.
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Elaborate? Business wise??? I'm sure they are suffering like everyone else...
Link Posted: 5/22/2020 6:36:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By urbanredneck:



Elaborate? Business wise??? I'm sure they are suffering like everyone else...
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Originally Posted By urbanredneck:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:

Gunwerks isnt doing too well these days.



Elaborate? Business wise??? I'm sure they are suffering like everyone else...

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2020/05/gunwerks-sued-by-wells-fargo-to-collect-on-2-8-million-loan/
Link Posted: 5/23/2020 10:50:09 AM EDT
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That sucks....sounds like their accounting problems started before the Covid lockdown....
Link Posted: 5/23/2020 11:02:40 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By urbanredneck:



That sucks....sounds like their accounting problems started before the Covid lockdown....
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Originally Posted By urbanredneck:



That sucks....sounds like their accounting problems started before the Covid lockdown....

They claimed they got it cleared up yesterday.
Link Posted: 5/23/2020 11:06:59 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:

LOL, which one is actually the better cartridge?
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Originally Posted By AKSnowRider:
Originally Posted By urbanredneck:


Who won the short mag market? Rum or wsm......

LOL, which one is actually the better cartridge?



Well, did a little research on the short mags lastnight. My conclusion.....

The offerings: 243 WSSM, 270 wsm, 7mm wsm, 300 wsm    270 rsum, 7mm rsum and the 300 rsum. Based on case design, the cartridges are almost identical so I doubt you can really find any real difference in performance. The Win cartridges seem to be a hair longer though. Overall market offerings indicate that Winchester won hands down but not all the cartridges won. 300 wsm and 270 wsm seem to be the only two that really caught on. 7mm might be holding on by a thread.
Link Posted: 5/27/2020 1:26:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By urbanredneck:



The guy is from ny, does some archery and carried a 30-30 he tagged along on a hunt. So his question was genuine but just no experience of where to start and what to ask.
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Have him shoot the MOA all day with any rifle then decide if he has the skills to even start trying to considering/compensate for environmental factors that will make him miss at 300.  Work up to 1k and wear out a few guns then think about trying to take an animal that far let alone 2k.
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