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Posted: 10/8/2019 1:02:11 PM EDT
I’ve got a Suppressor that I would like to use in club shooting matches. Could y’all help me input the corrections into my Applied Ballistics calculator for the POI shift?
If 1mil is 3.6in @ 100 yards that means I’m almost .75 of a mil low. How do I input that as an offset? Target:  Attached FileOffset menu:  Attached FileIt’s a form 1 can with a very repeatable POI shift. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 10/8/2019 1:28:35 PM EDT
[#1]
You just need to chronograph with your can on the rifle.
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Posted: 10/8/2019 1:28:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Use the speed over the chronograph when the suppressor is installed. Then tape a card of zeroes and come ups to the rifle.
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Posted: 10/8/2019 2:17:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Chronographing isn’t the point of the exercise.
Two weeks ago I shot a match and got skunked the first half because my zero was off. A pro shooter spotted for me on two shots, did some math on his phone with his calculator and had me put the result in my BC. I’m wanting to expand my knowledge base to know how he did what he did so I can understand mils a little better. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 2:21:54 PM EDT
[#4]
You could put zero height as -2.65, but zeroing with the can would be a better option for match shooting.
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Posted: 10/8/2019 2:37:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TeeRex:
You could put zero height as -2.65, but zeroing with the can would be a better option for match shooting. By placing the zero height at -2.65 you’re effectively “truing” the zero? This pro converted mils into inches by multiplying the offset (.4mils) by .36 and then dividing that number by the yardage to obtain the correction in inches at 100 yards. Once that offset is placed in the BC I was able to hit 75% of my shots for the remainder of the match including 3/4 at 800+. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 2:58:33 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17:
Chronographing isn’t the point of the exercise. Two weeks ago I shot a match and got skunked the first half because my zero was off. A pro shooter spotted for me on two shots, did some math on his phone with his calculator and had me put the result in my BC. I’m wanting to expand my knowledge base to know how he did what he did so I can understand mils a little better. Your zero was off because you didn't have the zero for the gun's configuration and ammunition. You got lucky with an estimate that got you back to 75% of the targets, now try getting rid of luck by using good comeups. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:06:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Well, it ought to be, it's fundamental to sorting out a ballistics problem. Your zero was off because you didn't have the zero for the gun's configuration and ammunition. You got lucky with an estimate that got you back to 75% of the targets, now try getting rid of luck by using good comeups. I’m trying to get get rid of luck by cultivating correlation, not punching numbers into a magic cheater box. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:11:10 PM EDT
[#8]
Rezero with the can on and you don't need to change anything in the program.
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:24:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
Rezero with the can on and you don't need to change anything in the program. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:31:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17:
Not the point of this exercise. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:35:17 PM EDT
[#11]
Rofl, today OP ignored all legitimate advice
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:39:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Burnsy87:
Rofl, today OP ignored all legitimate advice I was seeking tribal knowledge to help me understand just how mils work in a practical setting as opposed to just plugging the numbers into a ballistic calculator and never thinking about the “whys” of the operation. This is the difference between learning to bake and buying an apple pie at McDonald’s. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:40:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AKSnowRider]
[#13]
@esa17
OP, in the hight one, enter how much high or low your shot is, in the offset enter how left or right it is..., Don't forget to add a "-" sign in front of your number if the bullet hits low or left, and if its high or right a "+" sign....At least that's how it works on my kilo2400 with the AB program... 
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:44:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Rob01]
[#14]
Sometimes it's a waste of time and energy. Precision is the key word. Get everything as precise as possible. You are that low at zero then you will be that low with all your data. It's not rocket science and just because some of the programs have all these inputs doesn't mean you have to put them in or mess with them with a simple issue as being a few tenths low at 100 yards.
And so you know you don't have to convert to inches if you use your reticle. It will tell you how many mils you are off. Doesn't matter the yardage. Just a little baking for you. ;) |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:48:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
Sometimes it's a waste of time and energy. Precision is the key word. Get everything as precise as possible. You are that low at zero then you will be that low with all your data. It's not rocket science and just because some of the programs have all these inputs doesn't mean you have to put them in or mess with them with a simple issue as being a few tenths low at 100 yards. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:48:53 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
Sometimes it's a waste of time and energy. Precision is the key word. Get everything as precise as possible. You are that low at zero then you will be that low with all your data. It's not rocket science and just because some of the programs have all these inputs doesn't mean you have to put them in or mess with them with a simple issue as being a few tenths low at 100 yards. 
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:50:51 PM EDT
[#17]
Because you should be zeroed going into a match. Never have I walked into a match not zeroed.
Hey if he wants to mess with it then have at it. His time and energy. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:52:02 PM EDT
[#18]
I found a NSSF video on part of what I’m asking...
 Why Does Impact Shift With A Suppressor? |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:53:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
Because you should be zeroed going into a match. Never have I walked into a match not zeroed. Hey if he wants to mess with it then have at it. His time and energy. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:55:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Rob01]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17:
It’s never happened till it happens. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 3:58:26 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Well 16 years and hundreds of matches and it's never happened. Not worried about it happening as I make sure it doesn't. Sometimes things happen that are beyond your control. If you’ve got some secret to keep asshat drivers from running into you I’m all ears. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 4:00:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17:
It’s never happened till it happens. In your zero height put in the measurement as 00.00" with a "+" or "-" in front of it to denote high or low .Then do the same for the Zero offset.... again a "+" or "-" for left or right... "-" = left or low, "+" = high or right... |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 4:02:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKSnowRider:
OP, I did post what should be the answer for an AB ballistics program above if you missed it... In your zero height put in the measurement as 00.00" with a "+" or "-" in front of it to denote high or low .Then do the same for the Zero offset.... again a "+" or "-" for left or right... "-" = left or low, "+" = high or right... |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 4:03:37 PM EDT
[#24]
In that case there are ways to check zero and rezero.
And if you can't check zero then how do you know how far you are off for your offset exercise anyways? One way or the other zero is checked and all what you are doing is not rezeroing the scope and using a program and hoping it's accurate. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 4:09:23 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
In that case there are ways to check zero and rezero. And if you can't check zero then how do you know how far you are off for your offset exercise anyways? One way or the other zero is checked and all what you are doing is not rezeroing the scope and using a program and hoping it's accurate. At that point there was no hoping, it was verified. Now, the purpose of my question was to do nothing more than confirm that I was on the right track to understanding the math this guy did in seconds to get me back on target. I do stuff like that in my jet all the time so I’m capable of doing it once I know the process. I’m not seeking to go into each match cold and just blast away. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 4:34:46 PM EDT
[#26]
I don't get it.
If you know you are off by an angular amount, (with in reason) wouldn't you will always be off that same angular amount? So if you had a perfect zero at 100y, and put on a can and found you were 10 MOA right with the can at 100y. Then (with in reason) you would always be 10 MOA right at any distance with the can on. Right? |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 10/8/2019 4:34:54 PM EDT
[#27]
My can caused the same shift at 100. When I re-zeroed it was dead on for both holdover and clicks out to 300. A can shouldn’t change velocity only POI as you’ve added a pound or so to the end of your barrel.
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Posted: 10/8/2019 6:52:41 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gsc0527:
My can caused the same shift at 100. When I re-zeroed it was dead on for both holdover and clicks out to 300. A can shouldn’t change velocity only POI as you’ve added a pound or so to the end of your barrel. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 7:39:35 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17:
I absolutely did not. Anyone can rezero with the can on and let that be that. I was seeking tribal knowledge to help me understand just how mils work in a practical setting as opposed to just plugging the numbers into a ballistic calculator and never thinking about the “whys” of the operation. This is the difference between learning to bake and buying an apple pie at McDonald’s. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17:
Originally Posted By Burnsy87:
Rofl, today OP ignored all legitimate advice I was seeking tribal knowledge to help me understand just how mils work in a practical setting as opposed to just plugging the numbers into a ballistic calculator and never thinking about the “whys” of the operation. This is the difference between learning to bake and buying an apple pie at McDonald’s. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 7:48:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: esa17]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: That is not the question you asked. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 7:57:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Adding a suppressor or any weight to the rifle will cause the bullet to strike lower due to reducing the barrel rise during recoil. How much I can't guess, I have to shoot the rifle to get a zero.
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Posted: 10/14/2019 7:28:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#32]
@esa17
I got you OP......I think Make a copy of rifle or load for the suppressor. Edit: having the target sideways cornfused me. Input the zero data in inches, it doesn't use mils, "zero height" -2.640 " zero offset" 1.2"(ABMobile is backwards on Android), the program will correct automatically, I do this all the time for all my loads. When using the suppressor select the load/rifle modified for it. Very simple no, rezeroing shit ever. None of my loads are actually zeroed perfectly with the scopes zero. One can run as many "zeroes" from one mechanical scope zero as the like. The solver doesn't give a shit, X0.0" Y0.0" is no different than X2.0" Y-0.987", it just needs to know the POI in relation to the POA at a given distance. BTW: 2.640"/3.600= .733333mil |
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USA
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Posted: 10/14/2019 8:04:49 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01:
Because you should be zeroed going into a match. Never have I walked into a match not zeroed. Hey if he wants to mess with it then have at it. His time and energy. Pro tip, dont let your gun take a tumble off the picnic table the morning of... |
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Posted: 10/14/2019 10:04:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
@esa17 I got you OP......I think Make a copy of rifle or load for the suppressor. Edit: having the target sideways cornfused me. Input the zero data in inches, it doesn't use mils, "zero height" -2.640 " zero offset" 1.2"(ABMobile is backwards on Android), the program will correct automatically, I do this all the time for all my loads. When using the suppressor select the load/rifle modified for it. Very simple no, rezeroing shit ever. None of my loads are actually zeroed perfectly with the scopes zero. One can run as many "zeroes" from one mechanical scope zero as the like. The solver doesn't give a shit, X0.0" Y0.0" is no different than X2.0" Y-0.987", it just needs to know the POI in relation to the POA at a given distance. BTW: 2.640"/3.600= .733333mil |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 4:37:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: sea2summit]
[#35]
Then your offset is -2.64". Mil is easier because as long as you know it's .75 mil all you have to do is subtract .75 mil to all the corrections it spits out for given ranges. I would recommend just putting in the offset for comps or hunting though, reduce the chance of error with maths
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Posted: 11/15/2019 11:04:06 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sea2summit:
Then your offset is -2.64". Mil is easier because as long as you know it's .75 mil all you have to do is subtract .75 mil to all the corrections it spits out for given ranges. I would recommend just putting in the offset for comps or hunting though, reduce the chance of error with maths He's probably using some form of ballistic reticle, so his dope charts would be the same. |
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Posted: 11/15/2019 11:27:46 PM EDT
[#37]
You’re over thinking this. Rezero with the can on and shoot your normal data.
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Posted: 11/16/2019 6:58:47 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586:
You're over thinking this. Rezero with the can on and shoot your normal data. |
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Posted: 11/18/2019 3:08:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586:
You’re over thinking this. Rezero with the can on and shoot your normal data. Also OP, Kestrel has an offset you can turn off and on specifically for this. |
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Posted: 11/18/2019 3:32:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: esa17]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sea2summit: I don't know about the OP but I shoot suppressed whenever I can but 90% of the land I hunt I can't use suppressors. I'm not going to rezero every other day so I can switch between hunting zero and playing zero, that's a waste of ammo. Also OP, Kestrel has an offset you can turn off and on specifically for this. This whole thread was to satisfy my academic curiosity and develop a more robust understanding of ballistics / mills. I’ve got my BC setup for suppressed & unsuppressed for 3 different types of ammo at this point. |
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Posted: 2/19/2020 1:30:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17:
This whole thread was to satisfy my academic curiosity and develop a more robust understanding of ballistics / mills. In real life the bullet velocity changed a bit with the silencer. Depending on your accuracy requirements and range it may or may not be visible to you. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 9/18/2020 8:02:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MS556]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17: My thought was the majority of the shift was from the change in barrel harmonics, not the 10fps increase in speed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17: Originally Posted By gsc0527: My can caused the same shift at 100. When I re-zeroed it was dead on for both holdover and clicks out to 300. A can shouldn’t change velocity only POI as you’ve added a pound or so to the end of your barrel. My thought was the majority of the shift was from the change in barrel harmonics, not the 10fps increase in speed. Yes, it is mostly barrel harmonics. A ballistic calculator is not going to fix that. You just need to shoot for zero with and without the can, know and record the difference and have separate dope for each, academic exercise notwithstanding. I use a good ballistic calculator, but it still is just a close approximation. Even if its dead-on right, a dope card is what you need. |
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Posted: 9/18/2020 8:19:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586]
[#43]
Add 10 fps and rezero with can. Done.
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Posted: 9/18/2020 8:53:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586: Add 10 fps and rezero with can. Done. No you can’t do that. You have to be cool and have everything in a program. Can’t believe you came in here with your common sense lol |
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Posted: 10/16/2021 11:12:19 PM EDT
[#45]
This thread made my head hurt.
You need your data with and without the can attached. If you have Optics that track properly then you adjust your base zero. One rifle I have requires a correction of .3 mil right and .3 up with the can attached as a example. |
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Posted: 8/13/2022 12:48:57 AM EDT
[#46]
I just save different rifle profiles for with can and without can.
I use a Kestrel with applied ballistics software built in and it has a zero offset feature. Plug in the numbers in mils if your scope uses mils. Moa of MOA. But in truth, I never shoot a match without being zeroed with or without the can. I never use the offset feature. |
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Posted: 8/13/2022 12:53:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Vespid_Wasp]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17: Two shots spotted with good trace followed by two center of plate impacts post correction at 425 yards. At that point there was no hoping, it was verified. Now, the purpose of my question was to do nothing more than confirm that I was on the right track to understanding the math this guy did in seconds to get me back on target. I do stuff like that in my jet all the time so I’m capable of doing it once I know the process. I’m not seeking to go into each match cold and just blast away. I am not going to remember exact numbers but Bryan Litz of applied ballistics recommends truing your elevation dope at 90% of your distance to transonic. For round numbers, if your bullet goes transonic at 1000 yards, you should true your muzzle velocity at 900 yards. So of you did it at 425 you probably had issues at longer ranges? I also use the custom drag models for my bullets that are available from Applied Ballistics, I don't use the G7 bc. |
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Posted: 8/13/2022 12:55:47 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17: My ballistic calculator does too. This whole thread was to satisfy my academic curiosity and develop a more robust understanding of ballistics / mills. I’ve got my BC setup for suppressed & unsuppressed for 3 different types of ammo at this point. Mils are just an angular measurement. There is an angle unit function in strelok pro that simplifies thinking about this. Just a sec and I will have a pic. |
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Posted: 8/13/2022 12:57:07 AM EDT
[#49]
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WV, USA
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Posted: 8/13/2022 1:03:41 AM EDT
[#50]
Question- If you offset in your calcs, but never re-zero, isn't your zero stop on the scope going to be set at the wrong point and potentially cause issues or are you just going to essentially to a holdover at your typical zero range
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