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Posted: 5/29/2018 10:41:04 PM EDT
I am probably over thinking this, but for the various rifle competitions, how important is it for a bolt gun to actually be a bolt gun?

This post came about because a buddy of mine was asking me about matches and the various equipment requirements.  The question came up about the question of having a different gun for any different match vs having one gun that you could "convert" (I know, scary word).  AR's being modular, it is entirely reasonable to suppose a shooter has one lower and different uppers for different matches.  A 16" with a dot for plinking, an 18" with a 1-8 scope for 3 gun, a 20" with irons for high-power Service rifle, a 24" heavy barrel with a big scope for prairie dogs and maybe F class, all of these can be operated with a single lower.  With that single lower, you only need one match trigger, one grip to get used to, and one set of magazines.  Individual uppers can be purchased more cheaply than complete rifles, and can be assembled in almost any configuration one can imagine.

Then I started extrapolating.  According to common theories and gunshop experts (note, the sarcasm) bolt guns are more accurate than gas guns because they are locked up tight the entire time and nothing moves.  They also have the advantage in lockup consistency since the rounds don't necessarily have to feed from a magazine.  While I know there are a gob of you that are already chomping at the bit to tell me why that particular assumption isn't correct, I will concede the point mostly because that is not the comparison I want to discuss.

If I take an AR pattern rifle (semi-auto) and add an adjustable gas block, and then adjust it to 0 gas, have I created a manually operated rifle?  What if I remove the gas tube entirely, and turn the gas block backwards (so it vents forward) or even threaded a set screw into the gas block to plug it up?   How about if I get a barrel without a gas port at all?  The only difference would be a straight pull and a spring loaded return.  Would that setup, if it was a comparable quality barrel and chamber yield similar accuracy to a similarly equipped legitimate bolt gun?  Would it be better accuracy than if it was an actual gas gun?  Would the technical distinction of it NOT being a semi-auto count for anything at any rifle matches (like PRS or High-power).  Would it count in places that standard AR-15's are regulated or banned?

Note, the terms "need" and "why" aren't really germane to this discussion, I am only spit balling possibilities.
Link Posted: 5/29/2018 11:02:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Semis are outlawed in England.

Link Posted: 5/30/2018 12:48:03 AM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By barrysuperhawk:
Would the technical distinction of it NOT being a semi-auto count for anything at any rifle matches (like PRS or High-power).  Would it count in places that standard AR-15's are regulated or banned?
View Quote
During the 94-04 AW ban, gas-less straight-pull bolt action and even pump action AR and AK rifles were produced for those who still wanted the banned features (collapsible stock, large detachable magazine, threaded muzzle, etc), but didn't have a pre-ban lower.

Since the federal ban has expired, it's up to the individual state-level bans, where applicable, as to what features a non-semiautomatic AR or other type rifle would be allowed to have.

I don't know about the rifle match rules.
Link Posted: 5/30/2018 4:51:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Rob01] [#3]
Link Posted: 6/2/2018 8:05:14 PM EDT
[#4]
That POF looks cool, but I think I want more barrel...  Everyone wants a few more inches, right?
Link Posted: 6/2/2018 9:34:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Take away al the other discussions. I think there’s a great market for a bolt action rifle that uses easily swappable AR barrels.
Link Posted: 6/2/2018 9:49:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bigger_Hammer] [#6]
Super simple

Basically you could make an AR into a slick straight pull rifle.

Barrel without gas port drilled.  No gas block or tube need.

Side charger receiver (and bolt carrier if needed).

There are right and left side chargers so you could pick which hand (right or left) you feel is best to operate.

Done!

Link Posted: 6/3/2018 9:56:55 PM EDT
[#7]
If I take an AR pattern rifle (semi-auto) and add an adjustable gas block, and then adjust it to 0 gas, have I created a manually operated rifle? Yes.

What if I remove the gas tube entirely, and turn the gas block backwards (so it vents forward) or even threaded a set screw into the gas block to plug it up? I think removing the gas tube is going to give you a bit of gas in the face.  Just turn the gas off.  You'll still get gassed, but not as much as if you cut it off at the chamber.

How about if I get a barrel without a gas port at all? See answer number 2.

The only difference would be a straight pull and a spring loaded return.  Would that setup, if it was a comparable quality barrel and chamber yield similar accuracy to a similarly equipped legitimate bolt gun? Of course it COULD.  You get those results now with many quality AR's.  99% of this accuracy is shooter-dependent.

Would it be better accuracy than if it was an actual gas gun?  Not necessarily.

Would the technical distinction of it NOT being a semi-auto count for anything at any rifle matches (like PRS or High-power).  The PRS has a gas gun-specific league.  You would be at such a disadvantage running it that I'm sure they would allow you to run your non-semiauto AR in one of their bolt gun matches. Think about it...the AR does not have bolt ergonomics as far as manually loading each round is concerned. If you didn't have a side-charing upper, you'd have to get off your optic every shot.  If you did have a side-charger, you probably still have to get off the optics just due to how far back the BCG has to travel.

Would it count in places that standard AR-15's are regulated or banned? It might, but there's not too many that want to put shit like that to the test.

Machining in modern times has allowed many folks in the manufacturing industries the ability to produce their products with very consistent and tight tolerances.  Hence the fact that more and more AR's are able to shoot sub-minute, some even going sub-half-minute.  None of this should be news at this point.

I am not 100% certain why the PRS developed the separate "Gas Gun Series" for their competitions.  If they did it because of this prevailing belief that gas guns are not as accurate as bolt guns, I'd disagree with them.  I know that they also could have done this simply due to the fact that you can shoot a gasser much faster than a bolt, and so maybe they believed the par times for the guys running semi's were just too generous as the average COF's are developed with a bolt gun shooter in mind.  Anyhow, I digress...
Link Posted: 6/3/2018 11:54:48 PM EDT
[#8]
They sell "bolt action" AR15's in various states to circumvent the Anti AR self loading bias in the law. Since they are not gas operated, they can have all the other features including a bayonet lug.

Side charger is just fine.

Competition rules, however, are something else. Case in point, back in the early days of 3 Gun, at the First Invitational SOF Match at Columbia MO there were competitors who showed up with wildcat .300 x 45mm AR15's - to meet the rule it had to be .30 or go home. They sent them home anyway, rules be damned. The Rules Nazis were Fudd and only .308 was allowed. Who knew?

They got dem rulz, ya see.
Link Posted: 9/6/2018 2:13:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tirod:
They sell "bolt action" AR15's in various states to circumvent the Anti AR self loading bias in the law. Since they are not gas operated, they can have all the other features including a bayonet lug.

Side charger is just fine.

Competition rules, however, are something else. Case in point, back in the early days of 3 Gun, at the First Invitational SOF Match at Columbia MO there were competitors who showed up with wildcat .300 x 45mm AR15's - to meet the rule it had to be .30 or go home. They sent them home anyway, rules be damned. The Rules Nazis were Fudd and only .308 was allowed. Who knew?

They got dem rulz, ya see.
View Quote
For competition, they lean towards the "spirit" of the rules opposed to loopholes in how it's worded.  If they wanted to be anal about it, they could go to a major/ minor system, or rename the class to add the cartridge name.
One local club has a "military class" in their centerfire match series, which is intended for pre-Ar15 rifles (Mausers, Garands, Sprigfields, etc).  The rules say "Pre-Vietnam," but I can probably nitpick the crap out of that rule regarding the Ar15
Link Posted: 9/17/2018 5:05:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lostinthewoods] [#10]
Accuracy is not the problem with an AR vs. bolt gun, properly built AR's have the potential to shoot in the .1's and .2's.

Lock time is the issue.....  8ms for AR vs. 2ms (or less) for a bolt gun.  A bolt gun's bullet is 50-75 yards down range before the AR's leave the muzzle (triggers pulled at exact same time).

That means you have to hold an AR PERFECTLY STEADY for 4 TIMES LONGER after you pull the trigger.

So unless you are shooting totally free recoil off a bench, the bolt gun will ALWAYS win, everything else being equal.
Link Posted: 9/23/2018 11:08:09 AM EDT
[#11]
I have an M1A Supermatch that I can shoot with the gas system turned off and function it just like a bolt gun.  Gas system turned on it's shoots about .790.  Gas system turned off it shoots around .575.  Only draw back with this gun is it's heavy as hell.
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