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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/12/2018 9:18:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#1]
Scott,
I appreciate your shared hands-on-experience with the 6.5mm GAP 4S SAUM: < https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/6-5-GAP-4s-Reviews-6-5-SAUM/3-7389/i99480#i99480 > (NOTE: Presently, the price for a 20-round box of Copper Creek Cartridge Co. 6.5mm RSAUM precision hand-loaded ammunition, using Hornady factory brass, is $49.99. The MSRP on a 20-round box of Hornady PRC ammunition is $50.21.) And, re your suggestion that I ". . . just go ahead and build a rifle . . .". Fact is: Prompted, primarily, by the fact that C.C.C.C quality-loaded 6.5mm RSAUM factory ammunition is available, that's what I've been considering. Problem is: A long-time (since the 1970's) Bullpup enthusiast --- 
I'm presently debating between basing my build on the AR-10, as I did back in 2001 (See my 3/30/2018 7:03 PM Post, above), or on a Bullpup, such as the K&M Arms M17S .308, with its beefy 3-lug bolt --- 
We're fast-approaching the threshold of the third decade of the 21st Century. And, Bullpups are in ! --- < https://www.google.com/search?q=images+for+rifle+designs+of+the+near+future&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCifTrvNDeAhVowlQHHTwiDMlQsAR6BAgEEA&biw=1360&bih=626 > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ETA: As I ponder my options, I'm reminded to a favorite chapter in my life --- now, long ago and far away --- wherein, I enjoyed the privileged use of a well-equipped farm machine shop tucked away in the hinterlands of New England, my efforts witnessed only by the wide-eyed deer mice who accompanied my late-night adventures at The shack on top of the hill --- 
< https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Late_Reply_to_Home_made_AR_10_ARCHIVED_THREAD_/123-629310/? > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The AR-10 Story 
< https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/10/2/the-ar-10-story/ > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ The Fall And Rise Of The AR-10 
< https://gundigest.com/military/firearms/the-fall-and-rise-of-the-ar-10 > |
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Posted: 11/12/2018 11:57:17 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SKY-PUP:
(NOTE: Presently, the price for a 20-round box of Copper Creek Cartridge Co. 6.5mm RSAUM precision hand-loaded ammunition, using Hornady factory brass, is $49.99. The MSRP on a 20-round box of Hornady PRC ammunition is $50.21.) We're fast-approaching the threshold of the third decade of the 21st Century. And, Bullpups are in ! --- Guess we’d have differing opinions on semi auto bullpup precision rifles as well, as I don’t know of a single one. At least it seems the thread isn’t pushing for the 6.5 SAUM for the PRS gas gun series anymore. We’ve had no trouble with pushing the creedmoors out to the maximum distance without needing the proprietary parts or more expensive ammo. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/16/2018 2:16:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#3]
UPDATE: A welcome shot-in-the-arm for the "I'd really rather have a 6.5mm SAUM" movement.
PRIME 6.5 SAUM 142 SMK < https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/prime-6-5-saum-142-smk.6894747/#post-7311817 > 
< https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammunition/first-look-prime-ammunition-on-target-with-shooters > A call to Prime Ammunition confirmed that the brass used in the 6.5 SAUM 4S ammunition is Norma. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ETA: RUAG Ammotec Manufacturing (video) < https://vimeo.com/90588328 > 
< https://www.primeammo.com/ammunition/6-5-saum/prime-65-saum-4s-142gr-match-case.html > |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 4:27:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: 6.5 PRC ammo goes for 33-34$ a box. 16$ a box cheaper than limited supply 6.5 SAUM. Guess we’d have differing opinions on semi auto bullpup precision rifles as well, as I don’t know of a single one. At least it seems the thread isn’t pushing for the 6.5 SAUM for the PRS gas gun series anymore. We’ve had no trouble with pushing the creedmoors out to the maximum distance without needing the proprietary parts or more expensive ammo. Scott |
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Posted: 11/17/2018 4:30:39 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SKY-PUP:
UPDATE: A welcome shot-in-the-arm for the "I'd really rather have a 6.5mm SAUM" movement. PRIME 6.5 SAUM 142 SMK < https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/prime-6-5-saum-142-smk.6894747/#post-7311817 > https://i.postimg.cc/Hx3hbQPr/Prime.png https://i.postimg.cc/KcR6tWxF/Prime-A.png https://i.postimg.cc/wT50N5yg/Prime-B.png < https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammunition/first-look-prime-ammunition-on-target-with-shooters > A call to Prime Ammunition confirmed that the brass used in the 6.5 SAUM 4S ammunition is Norma. Scott |
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USA
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Posted: 11/17/2018 4:54:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SKY-PUP:
UPDATE: A welcome shot-in-the-arm for the "I'd really rather have a 6.5mm SAUM" movement. PRIME 6.5 SAUM 142 SMK < https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/prime-6-5-saum-142-smk.6894747/#post-7311817 > https://i.postimg.cc/Hx3hbQPr/Prime.png https://i.postimg.cc/KcR6tWxF/Prime-A.png https://i.postimg.cc/wT50N5yg/Prime-B.png < https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammunition/first-look-prime-ammunition-on-target-with-shooters > A call to Prime Ammunition confirmed that the brass used in the 6.5 SAUM 4S ammunition is Norma. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/18/2018 6:15:05 AM EDT
[#7]
I today emailed the following Open letter to Jeff Overstreet, CMMG:
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/21/2018 4:29:45 AM EDT
[#8]
There are some three dozen sources for quality AR-10's, today
< https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/AR-10-er-s-bummed-by-Hornady-s-6-5-PRC-2-955-Max-C-O-L-Not-to-worry-The-6-5-GAP-4S-SAUM-option-/4-7781/#i104880 > CMMG's design philosophy got my attention: 
< https://www.cmmginc.com/new-logo-press-release/ > Case-in-point: 
And, CMMG Mk3 owners report that C Products (C Products Defense, Inc.) 7.62x51 Magazines (2.874" inside length) work well in the Mk3: < https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/AR-10-ers-bummed-by-Hornady-s-6-5-PRC-2-955-Max-C-O-L-Not-to-worry-The-6-5-GAP-4S-SAUM-option-/4-7781/#i105400 > I envy the engineers on the CMMG Design Team ! |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/23/2018 2:31:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#9]
Let's do the twist
< https://schoutdoors.com/threads/long-range-project-6-5-saum.7456/#post-58007 > 6.5mm projectiles are an ideal choice for extended-range targets, due in large part to their high Ballistic Coefficient --- they're "born" with it. Enter: The Sierra 6.5mm 150-grain HPBT Matchking, with an outstanding Ballistic Coefficient of 0.713 --- 
However, to properly stabilize high-BC projectiles over their flight path to the target, a relatively fast barrel twist rate is required: Sierra recommends 1 X 7.5", or faster, for the 150-grain HPBT Matchking. But, there's more: Effects of Altitude and Temperature on Rifling Twist --- 
< http://riflebarrels.com/effects-of-altitude-and-temperature-on-rifling-twist/ > Add to this, the high muzzle velocity of the Sierra 150-grain Matchking launched from rifles chambered for the 6.5 SAUM 4S: < https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/6-5-saum-150-smk-load-data.198701/ > In view of all the above, I think it's fair to suggest that shooters with rifles chambered for the 6.5 SAUM 4S, with a 1 X 8.0" barrel twist rate --- shooting at higher elevations --- may experience no ill effects with the Sierra 150-grain Matchking. Now, the C.O.A.L. of the 6.5 SAUM 4S loaded with the l-o-n-g Sierra 6.5mm 150-grain HPBT Matchking projectile is about 2.940". Not to worry, AR-10'ers: A simple cut-out/window of your AR-10 magazine front wall allows the Sierra 150-grain HPBT Matchking, with room to spare --- 
Exciting times for long-range shooters ! |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/28/2018 12:15:19 PM EDT
[#10]
And, today's Open letter to 2A Armament
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/5/2018 4:07:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#11]
More on the Effects of Altitude and Temperature on Rifling Twist
< https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/2nd-annual-307-speed-goat-hunt-6-5-saum-style.122473/ > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 6.5 SAUM, 150-grain HPBT Matchking, BC - 0.713, 10 mph crosswind, Atmospheric pressure (Hg) - 29.53: Elevation: Sea level, Temp: 59 degrees, Relative humidity: 78%;  Elevation: 6,000 ft *, Temp: 30 degrees, Relative humidity: 40%; 
* < https://www.west-inc.com/reports/jackson_prongstudy.pdf > See Page 3, Study Area NOTE: The consensus among gun writers is that 1,000 ft. lbs. and 1,500 ft. lbs. retained K.E., respectively, is required to take whitetail deer and elk. |
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Posted: 12/5/2018 8:45:19 AM EDT
[#12]
Not sure how they are on game, but the 150smk is a good bullet. Shot from a 1:8 twist 260rem, 72F, 45% RH at 1147ft at 2784fps.
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Posted: 12/5/2018 9:18:28 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge:
Not sure how they are on game, but the 150smk is a good bullet. Shot from a 1:8 twist 260rem, 72F, 45% RH at 1147ft at 2784fps. https://i.imgur.com/mg4lpN4.jpg Most of my shooting is done at 900+meters and didn't want the bullet to destabilize. Now you've got me wondering. |
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Posted: 12/5/2018 1:04:36 PM EDT
[#14]
I’ve only taken them out to 500m, but they performed decent. Same DOPE as my 142smk load. Not sure what occurred with the 1 shot, but I’m thinking it was one of the rounds that I had leftover with a slightly different COAL. Same as the low round on the target posted above.
10” plate, 3” center and a 5” plate on the far left. The 150’s definitely hit harder than the 142’s.  LRI 150 SMK |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/5/2018 10:10:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge:
Not sure how they are on game, but the 150smk is a good bullet. . . . There's wide-ranging opinion on the use of the Sierra MatchKing --- or other HPBT bullet --- for hunting big game: 
< https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloading/match-ammo-for-hunting > |
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Posted: 12/5/2018 10:32:54 PM EDT
[#16]
“While they are recognized around the world for record-setting accuracy, MatchKing® and Tipped MatchKing® bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications.”- Sierrabullets.com
I’ve never used them on game, but I know a few avid hunters who have had bad experiences with them just poking holes and not delivering their energy in the animal. Like most things, I’m sure for each of those instances, there is a corresponding one stating they work great. That said, most of my medium game hunting was done with Nosler ballistic tips or Accubonds. Loads were still plenty accurate and capable of hitting moa plates out to 800+ yards. Furthest shot on actual game was only 314yds though. Do you have any pics of your 6.5SAUM gasser? |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/6/2018 3:02:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge:
Do you have any pics of your 6.5SAUM gasser? 
My 3/30/2018 Post: < https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/AR-10-ers-bummed-by-Hornady-s-6-5-PRC-2-955-Max-C-O-L-Not-to-worry-The-6-5-4S-SAUM-option-/4-7781/?page=1#i104552 > And, with Prime Ammunition to add the 6.5mm SAUM 4S to their line, I'm hoping one, or more, of the four dozen AR-10 builders listed in my Post on Page 1 < https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/AR-10-ers-bummed-by-Hornady-s-6-5-PRC-2-955-Max-C-O-L-Not-to-worry-The-6-5-GAP-4S-SAUM-option-/4-7781/?page=1#i104880 > will see the light, and add the 6.5mm SAUM to their list of offerings. All in all, I think it's fair to state that we're at the threshold of a whole new ball game ! |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/7/2018 2:34:00 AM EDT
[#18]
Patrick Kelly, Team Savage, on the Savage MSR 10, "We're a bolt gun company, and we're making a bolt gun that loads itself."
My November 18, 2018 email to Savage Arms Company, Product Development: 
< https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/AR-10-ers-bummed-by-Hornady-s-6-5-PRC-2-955-Max-C-O-L-Not-to-worry-The-6-5-GAP-4S-SAUM-option-/4-7781/?page=2#i115627 > 
< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEzUL8mZmBk > Adjusting A Savage MSR 10 Gas Block < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs_6HxdBY4k > And, a Bolt big enough for the 6.5mm Creedmoor's Big Brudder, the 6.5mm SAUM 4S --- 
What's not to like ! |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/8/2018 9:12:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#19]
And, for those of us who now own an AR-10, but are considering taking it to the next level:
I today sent the following email to KAK Industry President, Kurt Kosman, CC: AR15.com --- 
< https://www.kakindustry.com/magnum-upper-24 > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ETA: 
< https://www.kakindustry.com/review/product/list/id/629/ > < https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/KAK-Magnum-WSM/121-721154/&page=1#i7565777 > Click the K&K 300 WSM link |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/13/2018 9:15:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Then, there's the KONEV Modular Rifle
New Multi-Caliber Weapon System < https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/03/08/konev-modular-rifle > With a 3-lug Breech bolt --- 
And, Folding Stock --- 
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/14/2018 11:29:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#21]
An appeal to Remington Outdoor Company for the return of the DPMS SAUM:
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Posted: 12/14/2018 8:12:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: nick1983]
[#22]
Ok so I have been kicking this idea around on paper.
This offers a significant performance increase over the 6.5 CR / .260 gas guns AND fits into regular large frame AR. However, as some others have pointed out, running 60 something grains of powder down a 6.5mm tube is going to result in a significant barrel life reduction. A gas gun in 6.5 CR / .260 is going to have a realistic barrel life in the region of about 2,500 rounds, each case burns about 40-45 grains of powder. A gas gun in 6.5 SAUM is probably going to have a barrel life in the region of 1,500 rounds. This number makes sense being that approximately 60gr. + powder will be burned in a cylinder with the same volume. In my experience, the 6.5 CR / .260 class cartridges require a 20"-24" barrel to take advantage over the larger case capacity over something smaller like a 6.5 Grendel. Furthermore, the additional powder is going to result in increased recoil. The large frame AR is one of the most difficult rifles to shoot well be it in .308 / 6.5 CR / .260 / 7-08. This would make it even more difficult due to the substantial increase in recoil. With this case, as with any over bore cartridge, there isn't much point in a shorter barrel. Being that 60gr. + of a SLOWER burning powder than those used in the 6.5 CR / .260, will need to be burned in the same diameter barrel, a 24" barrel would be a bare minimum. So now you have a 24"+ barrel on a large frame AR. That rifle is a pig. They are just too big and cumbersome to be anything other than a bench gun. I have had 2 24" .308 barrels, when large frame ARs first became popular about 10 years ago, the barrels both got sold in 6 months. A long barrel, heavy rifle, with short barrel life are not characteristics you want in a gas gun. That's what bolt guns are for, might as well get the trajectory, ass and power of something like a .300 RUM. The 6mm Creed and .243 will both give similar ballistic trajectories with far less recoil and without the need to get a proprietary bolt. Additionally high quality brass for both those calibers are easy to come by. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/15/2018 8:00:55 AM EDT
[#23]
I came across the American Rifleman October 29, 2018 article, A First Look at 2019's New Guns
< https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/10/29/a-first-look-at-2019-s-new-guns/ > The Radical Firearms Lightweight RF-10 Rifle captured my attention, prompting an email to the Stafford, TX rifle builder: 
2019 is shaping-up to be an exciting year ! |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 12/15/2018 8:09:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nick1983:
The 6mm Creed and .243 will both give similar ballistic trajectories with far less recoil and without the need to get a proprietary bolt. Additionally high quality brass for both those calibers are easy to come by. |
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USA
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Posted: 12/15/2018 9:26:24 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nick1983:
Ok so I have been kicking this idea around on paper. This offers a significant performance increase over the 6.5 CR / .260 gas guns AND fits into regular large frame AR. However, as some others have pointed out, running 60 something grains of powder down a 6.5mm tube is going to result in a significant barrel life reduction. A gas gun in 6.5 CR / .260 is going to have a realistic barrel life in the region of about 2,500 rounds, each case burns about 40-45 grains of powder. A gas gun in 6.5 SAUM is probably going to have a barrel life in the region of 1,500 rounds. This number makes sense being that approximately 60gr. + powder will be burned in a cylinder with the same volume. In my experience, the 6.5 CR / .260 class cartridges require a 20"-24" barrel to take advantage over the larger case capacity over something smaller like a 6.5 Grendel. Furthermore, the additional powder is going to result in increased recoil. The large frame AR is one of the most difficult rifles to shoot well be it in .308 / 6.5 CR / .260 / 7-08. This would make it even more difficult due to the substantial increase in recoil. With this case, as with any over bore cartridge, there isn't much point in a shorter barrel. Being that 60gr. + of a SLOWER burning powder than those used in the 6.5 CR / .260, will need to be burned in the same diameter barrel, a 24" barrel would be a bare minimum. So now you have a 24"+ barrel on a large frame AR. That rifle is a pig. They are just too big and cumbersome to be anything other than a bench gun. I have had 2 24" .308 barrels, when large frame ARs first became popular about 10 years ago, the barrels both got sold in 6 months. A long barrel, heavy rifle, with short barrel life are not characteristics you want in a gas gun. That's what bolt guns are for, might as well get the trajectory, ass and power of something like a .300 RUM. The 6mm Creed and .243 will both give similar ballistic trajectories with far less recoil and without the need to get a proprietary bolt. Additionally high quality brass for both those calibers are easy to come by. When he thought up this cartridge one of the things he focused on was low pressure and thats why H1000 is the preferred powder, it keeps the pressures roughly at 308 levels (IIRC). Lot of guys over on the Hide shooting 130/140s to 3200/3100 and getting more like 2500 rds barrel life. The 6mm rounds just dont have the ass to take bigger game animals at long range. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/15/2018 9:33:34 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote History . . . Exactly. A 6.5 SAUM in a gasser would be difficult to shoot well. I shoot one in a bolt-gun and like it, but here the juice isn't worth the squeeze. 
< https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/AR-10-ers-bummed-by-Hornady-s-6-5-PRC-2-955-Max-C-O-L-Not-to-worry-The-6-5-GAP-4S-SAUM-option-/4-7781/#i105166 > This Discussion Forum is "Precision Rifles >> Semi-Auto Rifles". And, as I stated in a Post at the top of this Page, I appreciate " . . . shared hands-on experience with the 6.5mm GAP 4S SAUM." I think it's fair to state that we all agree --- bolt-gunners and gasser-gunners --- that the 6.5mm SAUM 4S is something special. Let's encourage all to give it a shot. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 10:25:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GMZ: As always a jack of all trades is a master of none. George wanted a round that he could shoot big game at long range with and shoot steel matches with and not have to rebarrel every season. When he thought up this cartridge one of the things he focused on was low pressure and thats why H1000 is the preferred powder, it keeps the pressures roughly at 308 levels (IIRC). Lot of guys over on the Hide shooting 130/140s to 3200/3100 and getting more like 2500 rds barrel life. The 6mm rounds just dont have the ass to take bigger game animals at long range. It needs a 24” barrel minimum, preferably 26-28” in order to burn the extra powder. For that size and weight penalty you can carry something like a .300 RUM. If you’re going to shoot big game long range there isn’t a 6.5mm cartridge or bullet that is optimal. Not to say people don’t do it every day with match bullets. Don’t get me wrong I think this is an awesome idea, but in a short action bolt gun. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 12:13:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GMZ: As always a jack of all trades is a master of none. George wanted a round that he could shoot big game at long range with and shoot steel matches with and not have to rebarrel every season. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/18/2018 10:47:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#29]
Under the heading, Is there a Ruger SR-6.5mm SAUM in the future?, I today sent the following email to Ruger's new C.E.O., Chris Killoy:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ETA: 
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/20/2018 4:22:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#30]
JP Enterprises JP LTC-19 Light-Weight Precision Rifle
In my continuing search for What's New: 2019, I came across the new-for-2019 JP LTC-19 < https://www.jprifles.com/1.2.6_LTC19.php > , which prompted the following email, under the heading, Wanted: A JP Enterprises LTC-19 chambered for the 6.5mm SAUM 4S --- 
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:41:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Presently, there are more than fifty (50) arms manufacturers building AR-10 rifles < https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/AR-10-ers-bummed-by-Hornady-s-6-5-PRC-2-955-Max-C-O-L-Not-to-worry-The-6-5-GAP-4S-SAUM-option-/4-7781/?page=1#i104880 >
Why the 6.5mm SAUM 4S is a shoo-in:  
< https://coppercreekammo.com/products/65saum-143eldx/ > < https://coppercreekammo.com/products/6-5mm-prc-143gr-hornady-eld-x/ > 
< https://imgur.com/gallery/9FUnp > Applied Ballistics Magazine Lengths --- 
Which will be the first to open the gate? |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/22/2018 8:53:31 AM EDT
[#32]
And, under the heading, The short action-friendly 6.5mm SAUM 4S: It's not just for bolt-gunners anymore
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CO, USA
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Posted: 12/23/2018 11:16:39 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SKY-PUP:
I think it's fair to state that we all agree --- bolt-gunners and gasser-gunners --- that the 6.5mm SAUM 4S is something special. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/24/2018 3:41:42 AM EDT
[#34]
Adams Arms P3 .308
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Posted: 12/24/2018 4:09:06 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hoser:
Exactly. A 6.5 SAUM in a gasser would be difficult to shoot well. I shoot one in a bolt-gun and like it, but here the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hoser:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
The 6mm Creed and .243 will both give similar ballistic trajectories with far less recoil and without the need to get a proprietary bolt. Additionally high quality brass for both those calibers are easy to come by. 
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CO, USA
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Posted: 12/24/2018 7:38:44 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ziarifleman:
This is a bizarre thread. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/24/2018 11:04:08 AM EDT
[#37]
Here's the thing:
In my reply to a suggestion by Scotts556 that I ". . . just go ahead and build a rifle. . . ." (See my Post, top of this Page), I replied that's an option I'm considering. However, as a long-time Bullpup Enthusiast, I would prefer to use a platform like the K&M Arms M17s .308, or the Desert Tech MDR .308. Problem is: Whereas, the M17S has a proper Breech Bolt for the conversion, it ejects from the right side, only; And, though the MDR's ejection is ambidextrous, its Breech Bolt lacks the beef for a magnum conversion. Therefore, purchasing a Barrel-Bolt assembly for the 6.5mm SAUM 4S to go with my AR-10 was a clear option, at the time of my Post at the top of this Page (NOTE: At the time of that Post, I wasn't aware of Prime Ammunition planning to add the 6.5mm SAUM 4S to their list of quality ammunition.). However, since being informed of the Prime Ammunition 6.5mm SAUM 4S offering --- with Norma brass, and considering the number of manufacturers offering quality AR-10's, today, I see all of this in a new light. Now, converting an AR-10 .308 to one of the short-action magnum cartridges (.300 WSM, in this case) is a worthwhile experience: Been there, done that (2001) --- 
But, that was nearly two decades, ago! I think it's time for the gun industry to get into the act (as others appear to agree) --- 
In view of all the above, I think it is likely that one, or more of today's AR-10 manufacturers come to see the light, and offer the 6.5mm SAUM 4S. Happy Holidays ! |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/24/2018 11:31:17 AM EDT
[#38]
Bolt Rifle vs. Semi-Auto Rifle: Which Option Is Better For Precision? By David Bahde
< https://www.ballisticmag.com/2018/05/25/bolt-rifle-vs-semi-auto-rifle/ > |
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Posted: 12/25/2018 12:33:32 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SKY-PUP:
Here's the thing: In my reply to a suggestion by Scotts556 that I ". . . just go ahead and build a rifle. . . ." (See my Post, top of this Page), I replied that's an option I'm considering. However, as a long-time Bullpup Enthusiast, I would prefer to use a platform like the K&M Arms M17s .308, or the Desert Tech MDR .308. Problem is: Whereas, the M17S has a proper Breech Bolt for the conversion, it ejects from the right side, only; And, though the MDR's ejection is ambidextrous, its Breech Bolt lacks the beef for a magnum conversion. Therefore, purchasing a Barrel-Bolt assembly for the 6.5mm SAUM 4S to go with my AR-10 was a clear option, at the time of my Post at the top of this Page (NOTE: At the time of that Post, I wasn't aware of Prime Ammunition planning to add the 6.5mm SAUM 4S to their list of quality ammunition.). However, since being informed of the Prime Ammunition 6.5mm SAUM 4S offering --- with Norma brass, and considering the number of manufacturers offering quality AR-10's, today, I see all of this in a new light In view of all the above, I think it is likely that one, or more of today's AR-10 manufacturers come to see the light, and offer the 6.5mm SAUM 4S. Happy Holidays ! The posts are extremely confusing. I honestly hope this isn’t representative of what you’re sending to firearms executives. Copy and pasted forum clips from 5-10yrs ago with links to threads? I don’t see anyone dumping money into R&D based on that info. |
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Posted: 12/25/2018 1:18:23 AM EDT
[#40]
I kinda feel like OP is trying to use the "buzz" of this thread as justification for contacting manufacturers to make what he wants.
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Posted: 12/26/2018 1:52:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SKY-PUP:
Bolt Rifle vs. Semi-Auto Rifle: Which Option Is Better For Precision? By David Bahde < https://www.ballisticmag.com/2018/05/25/bolt-rifle-vs-semi-auto-rifle/ > He neglects to mention when talking of semi auto accuracy how small the percentage of people is that can actually shoot a large frame AR well. Kind of a big deal. There is a much larger percentage of people who can shoot a bolt action well. No mention of powder temperature sensitivity when shooting a gas gun. Again, this is a very big deal. No mention of the weight savings in bolt guns vs. the much heavier large frame AR. Another big deal. Most guys aren't going to hump a long barrel, large frame AR around for miles in the mountains. Again kind of big deal for those who can't bench press double body weight and run a 6 minute mile. He glosses over the fact that hand loaders can get significantly more speed than factory ammo. Along the same lines, he also ignores how much more speed a hand loader can get from a bolt gun, than a gas gun. 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun loads go about 200 FPS than gas gun loads. That might as well make it a different caliber, that is essentially the difference between a .308 and a 30-06. This isn't to say gas gun don't have a place they do. But like all things, it's about picking the right tool for the job. My problem with this whole idea is the size, weight and shooting enjoyment of large frame ARs. For most of the situations where a gas gun is desired (without getting into SBR's) IMHO the best route is 16-18" 6.5 Grendel. It covers hunting situations to 300-400 yards and target applications to 800 yards. IF one needs more capability / power than that, IMHO a large frame AR is not the next logical step, a long action magnum is. |
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Posted: 12/26/2018 8:39:29 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nick1983: He glosses over the fact that hand loaders can get significantly more speed than factory ammo. Along the same lines, he also ignores how much more speed a hand loader can get from a bolt gun, than a gas gun. 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun loads go about 200 FPS than gas gun loads. That might as well make it a different caliber, that is essentially the difference between a .308 and a 30-06. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2018 1:27:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#43]
Patrick Kelly, Team Savage, "We're a bolt gun company, and we're making a bolt gun that loads itself." ---
< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVRSr8ZQcS8 > 2019 is less than a week away. It's not surprising that 56 arms manufacturers (my last check) currently offer AR-10 rifles < https://www.ar15.com/forums/Precision-Rifles/AR-10-ers-bummed-by-Hornady-s-6-5-PRC-2-955-Max-C-O-L-Not-to-worry-The-GAP-4S-SAUM-option-/4-7781/?page=1#i104880 >. And, from a previous Post, "I think it's fair to state that we all agree --- bolt-gunners and gasser-gunners --- that the 6.5mm SAUM 4S is something special. Let's encourage all to give it a shot." Bottom Line: Why should bolt-gunners have all the fun ! |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2018 7:33:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SKY-PUP]
[#44]
Rifle Recoil: "Apples to apples, ARs have less recoil."
Effects of breech bolt movement on felt recoil of a gas-operated semi-automatic sporting gun --- 
< https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276247289_Effects_of_breech_bolt_movement_on_felt_recoil_of_a_gas-operated_semi-automatic_sporting_gun > AR-10 chambered for the .300 Winchester Short Magnum cartridge, at the moment of firing --- 
< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAo3yeJLO88&feature=youtu.be > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ETA: And, in that this discussion is all about the 6.5mm SAUM 4S, let's take a comparative look at Recoil Energy: Load One, .300 Winchester Short Magnum, Load Two, 6.5mm SAUM 4S 
Recoil Calculator - Handloads.com |
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Posted: 12/27/2018 1:47:17 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ziarifleman:
Do what now? Bolt guns could go to about 2,820 FPS. Same story in .308 gas vs. bolt loads. |
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Posted: 12/27/2018 1:55:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperJlarge]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nick1983: Start getting cratered primers and accuracy deterioration past about 2620 FPS on 6.5 CM gas guns. Bolt guns could go to about 2,820 FPS. Same story in .308 gas vs. bolt loads. 1) you’ve not specified the barrel length of the 2. Clearly not the same length 2) you’ve not specified the projectile. I can push a 130 well over 2700fps from a 22” 6.5 gasser. A 140 over 2650. Both loads in limited testing are sub .6moa 3) gas systems and buffers can play a part in how hard you can push a gasser And to tack on from the earlier post, a 6.5creed gasser can be a logical step beyond a 6.5grendel. I’ve used mine out to 1100yds with great success. |
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Posted: 12/27/2018 1:59:56 PM EDT
[#47]
But, in a funnier light, this thread looks like a ransom note. Deliver the 6.5 SAUM AR-10 or else!
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Posted: 12/27/2018 9:19:19 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperJlarge: That’s just not accurate. 1) you’ve not specified the barrel length of the 2. Clearly not the same length 2) you’ve not specified the projectile. I can push a 130 well over 2700fps from a 22” 6.5 gasser. A 140 over 2650. Both loads in limited testing are sub .6moa 3) gas systems and buffers can play a part in how hard you can push a gasser And to tack on from the earlier post, a 6.5creed gasser can be a logical step beyond a 6.5grendel. I’ve used mine out to 1100yds with great success. 6.5 CM 24" Criterion Gas = 2,640 FPS. 147gr. ELD-M 26" 6.5 CM Savage Bolt action = 2820 FPS. 147gr. ELD-M .308 20" Criterion Gas = 2,650 FPS. 155gr. AMAX 20" Krieger Bolt = 2,850 FPS. 155gr. AMAX Seems pretty accurate to me. I ended up chopping the 6.5 CM gas gun barrel down to 22", velocity loss is only 35FPS down to 2615 FPS. I am sorry my data experience doesn't mirror yours. I have never been able to get a gas gun anywhere near as fast as a bolt gun, pressure signs and accuracy deterioration always come about 200 FPS sooner. I ended up selling all of them, except the 6.5 CM gas gun, but I am really tempted to sell that too, as it's just too heavy. IF I could only have one rifle. It would be a 6.5 CM or .260 gas gun. Thing is the more I keep playing with stuff, and running the numbers, the more I think the gas gun move is: 6.5 Grendel 16" with a 1-8 type optic. There's so much to be said for guns that are easy and FUN to shoot. Large frame ARs are neither. |
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Posted: 12/27/2018 10:26:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ziarifleman]
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nick1983:
Sorry. 6.5 CM 24" Criterion Gas = 2,640 FPS. 147gr. ELD-M 26" 6.5 CM Savage Bolt action = 2820 FPS. 147gr. ELD-M .308 20" Criterion Gas = 2,650 FPS. 155gr. AMAX 20" Krieger Bolt = 2,850 FPS. 155gr. AMAX Seems pretty accurate to me. I ended up chopping the 6.5 CM gas gun barrel down to 22", velocity loss is only 35FPS down to 2615 FPS. I am sorry my data experience doesn't mirror yours. I have never been able to get a gas gun anywhere near as fast as a bolt gun, pressure signs and accuracy deterioration always come about 200 FPS sooner. I ended up selling all of them, except the 6.5 CM gas gun, but I am really tempted to sell that too, as it's just too heavy. IF I could only have one rifle. It would be a 6.5 CM or .260 gas gun. Thing is the more I keep playing with stuff, and running the numbers, the more I think the gas gun move is: 6.5 Grendel 16" with a 1-8 type optic. There's so much to be said for guns that are easy and FUN to shoot. Large frame ARs are neither. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nick1983:
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge: That’s just not accurate. 1) you’ve not specified the barrel length of the 2. Clearly not the same length 2) you’ve not specified the projectile. I can push a 130 well over 2700fps from a 22” 6.5 gasser. A 140 over 2650. Both loads in limited testing are sub .6moa 3) gas systems and buffers can play a part in how hard you can push a gasser And to tack on from the earlier post, a 6.5creed gasser can be a logical step beyond a 6.5grendel. I’ve used mine out to 1100yds with great success. 6.5 CM 24" Criterion Gas = 2,640 FPS. 147gr. ELD-M 26" 6.5 CM Savage Bolt action = 2820 FPS. 147gr. ELD-M .308 20" Criterion Gas = 2,650 FPS. 155gr. AMAX 20" Krieger Bolt = 2,850 FPS. 155gr. AMAX Seems pretty accurate to me. I ended up chopping the 6.5 CM gas gun barrel down to 22", velocity loss is only 35FPS down to 2615 FPS. I am sorry my data experience doesn't mirror yours. I have never been able to get a gas gun anywhere near as fast as a bolt gun, pressure signs and accuracy deterioration always come about 200 FPS sooner. I ended up selling all of them, except the 6.5 CM gas gun, but I am really tempted to sell that too, as it's just too heavy. IF I could only have one rifle. It would be a 6.5 CM or .260 gas gun. Thing is the more I keep playing with stuff, and running the numbers, the more I think the gas gun move is: 6.5 Grendel 16" with a 1-8 type optic. There's so much to be said for guns that are easy and FUN to shoot. Large frame ARs are neither. I would be wary of taking single samples of four different kinds of barrels and calling them data. |
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Posted: 12/27/2018 11:02:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ziarifleman:
What bolt and trigger are you using in the gas guns? I would be wary of taking single samples of four different kinds of barrels and calling them data. I have also tried it with .223 and 6.5 Grendel with similar results, I just don't have access to the data. Have you been able to run a 147gr. any faster in a gas gun? |
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