Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
6/25/2018 7:04:05 PM
Posted: 3/28/2018 2:55:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2018 6:05:14 AM EDT by SKY-PUP]
Following the long-awaited release of Hornady's highly-anticipated factory version of the widely-acclaimed 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM, the shooting forums were rife with comments such as, "What does it offer that the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM doesn't already?" And,"Why didn't they just standardize the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM?"

Moreover, the new Precision Rifle Series Gas Gun Open Division is an ideal sport-shooting format for a 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM-chambered short-action auto-loading rifle ---

"The PRS Gas Gun Series was conceived based off the high demand from PRS shooters, as well as those from other shooting sports. In 2016, the PRS Series included two Gas Gun specific matches and both received high praise from shooters of all backgrounds. We heard the call and decided to launch the Gas Gun Series in response to the tremendous amount of positive feedback we received from both matches. . . ."
(https://precisionrifleseries.com/profiles/gas-gun-series/)

The 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM case has about 4 grains additional case capacity than the 6.5 PRC, along with some 50 fps-plus muzzle velocity advantage. And, the typical C.O.L. of the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM is about 2.850". The Copper Creek Cartridge Co. has been offering precision hand-loaded 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM ammunition, using Hornady-stamped 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM brass, for some time ---
(http://coppercreekammo.com/product/65saum-143eldx/)

The guys at the Copper Creek Cartridge Co. tell me that Customers are converting Armalite AR-10 Ultra Magnum .300 SAUM and DPMS LR-300 .300 SAUM rifles to the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM. In that both of these models have a magnum bolt face, in most cases all that is needed is a barrel change. And, checkout Applied Ballistics Internal Magazine Dimensions (COAL) Chart --- (http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/AppliedBallisticsMagazineLengths.pdf).

So, if you're hankering for an auto-loading 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM rifle, contact your gunsmith, or call the guys at Accuracy Systems, Inc. They've been doing this for years --- (http://www.ar-10-rifles.com/index.php).

Good shooting!
Link Posted: 3/28/2018 8:44:45 AM EDT
Seems like an expensive proposition with cheaper and lower recoiling offerings currently available for 800yd targets.

It does make for an impressive hunting round.
Link Posted: 3/30/2018 1:52:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 9:02:59 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
I'm happy to note the recent appearance of two short-action auto-loading AR-10-type rifles for serious long-range use: http://www.shootingdaily.com/news/savage-reinvents-the-msr10/; https://www.gunworld.com/guns/mp10-rifle-smith-wessons-superb-6-5-creedmoor/.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty4GrLhdbVM

Re Sierra's new 6.5mm 150-grain HPBT Matchking projectile: Ballistic Coefficient - 0.713. Using the gundata.org handy compare-two-projectiles calculator, I compared the down-range velocity-energy-wind drift values for the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM loaded with the Sierra 150-grain HPBT Match king (A), and the .300 SAUM, loaded with the Remington 150-grain Core-Lokt (B), from 24" barrels, dialing in their respective Ballistic Coefficients: 0.713; 0.330, Muzzle Velocities: 3050 fps; 3200 fps ---


Some background on the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM loaded with the new Sierra 150-grain HPBT Matchking: http://forum.snipershide.com/threads/new-sierra-150-smk-for-6-5.6679303/#post-6702249; http://forum.snipershide.com/threads/new-sierra-150-smk-for-6-5.6679303/#post-6710636.

Link Posted: 3/30/2018 3:01:59 AM EDT
cool, do you have any numbers to compare say a 143 ELD-X between a 6.5CM and 6.5 Gap in a 20 inch barrel. any estimates on the 6.5 gaps barrel life. I like the concept but see this as a specialized tool thats going to require a fairly long/impractical barrel to hit its 3000fps goal
Link Posted: 3/30/2018 3:08:45 AM EDT
Having owned a 6.5 GAP 4S. Its less than ideal for PRS shooting. Its a powder hog and getting the 140 class bullets up to the 3200 FPS limit really takes a heavy toll on barrel life. To get around 2500RNDS barrel life from the SAUM your best bet is to use H1000 and keep your MV around 3050FPS. Get up to 3100FPS + and you drop bellow 2k on your barrel life. Go to any of the other magnum powders and you can really cut down hard on barrel life. A good friend uses a 6.5 GAP for hunting and getting every last bit of speed and he gets all of 8-900 rnds of barrel life. You can run the 130 GR bullets at 3150 and get great barrel life.

And on to the recoil. While is very very soft on the recoil department you are still slinging a 140 gr bullet at 3050 or 3100 FPS and it is very difficult to keep your target in the FOV of your optic from compromised positions. You can tell it has more recoil than say a 6.5 creedmoor or my 260AI.

H1000 is a very dirty powder. And you can expect carbon rings to start forming in the throat around 500 rnds. If you run a can you can expect it in as little as 200RNDS. Carbon rings will spike pressures, and will kill brass life down due to loose primers pockets. If you switch to one of the cleaner burning powders barrel life will go down the shitter.

The SAUM also has a rebated Rim. Not as extreme as say 22 Nolser, but it is rebated. And I have had issues with magazines feeding due to it if the round ends up wonky at the feed lips.

Scott
Link Posted: 3/30/2018 3:10:41 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By m4hk33:
cool, do you have any numbers to compare say a 143 ELD-X between a 6.5CM and 6.5 Gap in a 20 inch barrel. any estimates on the 6.5 gaps barrel life. I like the concept but see this as a specialized tool thats going to require a fairly long/impractical barrel to hit its 3000fps goal
View Quote
You will be able to walk past 3000k in a 20 inch barrel easy. At a major cost to barrel Life.

Scott
Link Posted: 3/30/2018 5:03:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 9:01:53 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
Link Posted: 3/30/2018 10:03:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 9:01:05 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
I started this Thread with the hope of reaching out to those who have converted the Armalite or DPMS .300 SAUM Models to the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM, that they might share their experiences with us. And, it is my hope that others presently considering such a conversion find this Thread helpful.

Back in 2001, I decided to convert an ASA .308 Match Rifle to the then new .300 Winchester Short Magnum cartridge. Whereas, the .308 operated in the 50,000 to 55,000 psi range, the .300 WSM operated in the 60,000 to 65,000 psi range. I investigated two avenues to solve the problem ---


The ASA .300 WSM, with the "Sidewinder" gas tube ---


Enter: The forward-thinking Savage MSR 10, with an adjustable gas block: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs_6HxdBY4k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVRSr8ZQcS8
Link Posted: 4/1/2018 6:53:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 9:00:14 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
Link Posted: 4/4/2018 5:05:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 8:59:06 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
I recall a visit to the Springfield Armory Museum, Springfield, MA, in the early 1980's. I was particularly interested in the AR-10 "Transitional" Model they had on display. It was a step-up from the "Sudanese" Model, but still not as advanced as the "Portuguese" Model ---

http://www.ar10.nl/ar10history.htm

"Sudanese"/'Transitional" Model Bolt, w/ small locking lugs (.308) ---


We've come a long way on AR-10 Bolt design:

The Daniel Defense DD5V1 Bolt (.308) ---


The KAK SR-25E2 Bolt (.308) ---


The Savage Arms MSR 10 Bolt (.308) ---
Link Posted: 4/5/2018 10:23:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2018 9:52:44 AM EDT by SKY-PUP]
AR-10's available today.

A cursory check of the Internet revealed these Models, available primarily in .308/7.62x51mm NATO, and some in .308/7.62x51mm NATO and 6.5mm Creedmoor:

Aero Precision M5E1
American Spirit Arms .308 Side Charging Rifle
Armalite AR-10
Bushmaster XM-10
Daniel Defense DD5
DPMS GII
Falkor Alpha .308 DMR Rifle
Fulton Armory FAR-308
G.A. Precision GAP-10 G2
Grey Ghost Precision Specter Heavy .308 Rifle
Knights Armament SR-25
LaRue Tactical OBR 7.62
LMT .308
LWRC REPR MKII .308
Noveske Rifle N6 Gen3 7.62
Palmeto State Armory AR-10
POF P308 Edge
Rainier Arms RA 308
Remington R-25 GII
RRA LAR-8 .308
Ruger SR-762
Savage Arms MSR 10
Seekins Precision SP10 .308
Sig Sauer SIG 716
Smith & Wesson M&P 10
Stag Arms 10s M-Lok
Windham Weaponry SRC-308
ZEV Technologies SF-Maten .308
2A Armament Xanthos .308 XLR

And, as noted in my opening Post, Accuracy Systems, Inc. offers AR-10's in a variety of short-action magnum chamberings.

ETA:

Alex Pro Firearms .308
F&D Defense FD .308
CMMG, Inc. MK3 .308
Colt LE901-16S .308
Wilson Combat AR-10 .308
Shaw Precision Guns ERS-10 .308
Axelson Precision AR-10 Series
Les Baer .308 Semi-auto Match Rifle
NEMO Arms XO .308
Del-Ton ALPHA .308
Cobalt Kinetics BAMF-XL .308
Link Posted: 4/7/2018 9:10:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 8:57:08 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
Short-action auto-loading rifle cartridge on steroids: The 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM

Now, I fully-expected that the increased case capacity of the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM over the 6.5mm Creedmoor would translate to superior down-range performance (NOTE: gundata.org compare two cartridges, (A) 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM, 147-grain ELD Match, BC - 0.697, MV - 3050 fps vs (B) 6.5mm Creedmoor, 147-grain ELD Match, BC - 0.697, MV - 2695 fps. Sea level, with a 10 mph crosswind, 24-inch barrels) ---


However, I was unprepared for the neck-to-neck 1,000-yard to 1,500-yard kinetic energy (KE) performance of the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM vs the MK 248 MOD 1 [Safe Load] (NOTE: gundata.org compare two cartridges, (A) 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM, 147-grain ELD Match, BC - 0.697, MV - 3050 fps vs (B) MK 248 MOD 1, 220-grain Sierra Matchking, BC - 0.629, MV - 2736 fps. Sea level, with a 10 mph crosswind, 24-inch barrels) ---



https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/5/24/unsung-hero-the-mk-248-mod-1/

WARNING:: Black Hills M 248 MOD 1 load too hot, for most chambers ---
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?140124-MK-248-MOD-1&p=1766910#post1766910

ETA:

6.5 GAP 4S SAUM vs the MK 248 MOD 0 (NOTE: gundata.org compare two cartridges, (A), 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM, 147-grain ELD Match, BC - 0.697, MV - 3050 fps vs (B) MK 248 MOD 0, 190-grain Sierra Matchking, BC - 0.533, MV - 2950 fps. Sea level, with a 10 mph crosswind, 24" barrels) ---
Link Posted: 4/7/2018 8:01:05 PM EDT
Every time I open this thread, I just scratch my head. OP, what are you trying to do? What is the purpose?
Link Posted: 4/7/2018 10:56:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 8:55:19 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
The 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM vs the M 248 MOD 1 70,000 psi load
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?140124-MK-248-MOD-1&p=1766910#post1766910

Gundata.org compare two cartridges:

(A) 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM, 150-grain Sierra Matchking, BC - 0.713, MV - 3050 fps; (B) M 248 MOD 1, 220-grain Sierra Matchking, BC - 0.629, MV - 2850 fps. Sea level, 10 mph crosswind, 24" barrels ---
Link Posted: 4/8/2018 4:33:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 8:54:29 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:
. . . It does make for an impressive hunting round.
View Quote
Thank you for your positive input.

As the former Editor and Publisher of the AR-10'er, I think it's fair to state that if Eugene Morrison Stoner was alive, today, he'd be happy to note the long list of companies manufacturing AR-10's (See the Post, above, AR-10's available today). In addition, AR-10 Builds is a favorite American pastime. Not surprisingly, firearms enthusiasts/experimenters (read: Adventurers) look-in on AR15.com for helpful tips, to that end.

Personally, the last time I fired a bolt-action rifle was in the late 1970's: A Bullpup'd Remington 40-XB ---


I found that firing the Remington Accelerator rounds in the AR-10 to be very effective ---


I recall a Page in our AR-10'er, wherein, I posed the question, "Have your looked your AR-10 Bolt in the face, today?, accompanied by a photo of a Portuguese AR-10 Breech Bolt ---


And, my rewarding experience with the American Spirit Arms .308 - .300 WSM Conversion left me hankering for more.

Thank you, Eugene Morrison Stoner.
Link Posted: 4/10/2018 3:50:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2018 8:53:34 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
The AR-10 switch-caliber option

For those shooters who now own one of the some thirty AR-10 .308 models listed, above, and want/need M 248 MOD 1 performance for extended-range targets, changing calibers is an option:

Primaryarms.com offers Bear Creek Arsenal AR-10 stainless steel 24" Barrels for the AR-308/AR-10 platforms, chambered for 6.5mm Creedmoor, 1:8" twist, $169.99;
Brownells offers DPMS .308 AR Complete Bolt Assembly, $109.99;
Midway USA offers AR-Stoner LR-308 Adjustable Gas Block, $84.99;
Gunsmith charge for rechambering the 6.5mm Creedmoor barrel to 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM, and opening-up the .308 AR Bolt face to 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM case rim diameter, $100.*
Gunsmith charge for reworking the Extractor, $35.*
(* Based on gunsmith costs associated with my 2001 ASA .308 - .300 WSM Conversion)
Total cost, $499.97.

In short: You still have your .308 AR-10, but you open-up a whole new world --- for $500.

Back in 2001, the short-action auto-loading "Fat Lady" of the times, the .300 WSM, caught executing a graceful exit through the American Spirit Arms Side Charging .308 Ejection Port ---


It's 2018: The short-action auto-loading "Fat Lady" of the times is the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM.
Link Posted: 4/12/2018 4:25:22 AM EDT
I received an e-mail from a highly-recognized innovator in the firearms industry, particularly, for his forward-thinking work with the AR platform. I'm told his 2008 6.5 RSAUM AR-10 build was a resounding success. He used it in competition, and it shot well.

If you know of someone who's built a 6.5 SAUM AR-10, ask them to share their experience with us.
Link Posted: 4/12/2018 5:34:07 AM EDT
I came across this AR15.com Thread that was posted a couple years ago ---

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Guidelines_to_Wildcat_Reliability_in_Large_Frame_AR-s/121-690452/

And, from reading this Post, it appears that the OP has done his homework. Looking forward to having him join us.
Link Posted: 4/13/2018 1:27:11 PM EDT
Under the Subject heading, "Is there a Remington 6.5mm SAUM in the near future?", I today submitted the following e-mail request to Remington Arms Company, LLC ---
Link Posted: 4/14/2018 1:13:16 AM EDT
I today received an initial response to my e-mail request, from Remington Customer Services ---

Link Posted: 4/15/2018 11:02:42 PM EDT
I see what your going at here. And while it would be a cool project. At 1$ a piece for brass its hard to justify throwing that out the side of a autoloader. I would like to see the results of someone running a 6.5 GAP large frame AR. IT would be interesting to see how hard you can push it without issues.

Scott
Link Posted: 4/16/2018 3:58:58 AM EDT
Scott,

Check out this pic of once-fired .300 Winchester Short Magnum brass (rear row, nickel-plated) shot from an American Spirit Arms Side-Charging .308 AR-10 converted to .300 WSM, picked up from the ground, back in 2001 (Wikipedia: .300 WSM C.I.P. = 63,817 psi) ---


And, consider, too, the experimenter noted in a Post, above, who built a 6.5 RSAUM AR-10 back in 2008, and used it, to good success, in competition.

Today, there are more than thirty (30) manufacturers of AR-10's (see, above Post). We're-fast approaching the third decade of the 21st Century. Not surprisingly, auto-loading rifles are in.

Bottom Line: AR-10'ers just wanna have fun --- at extreme ranges. A Remington factory-loaded 6.5mm SAUM, with high BC projectiles, would be the cat's meow.
Link Posted: 4/16/2018 8:59:38 AM EDT
Great thread. Following.
Link Posted: 4/16/2018 11:43:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2018 5:14:00 PM EDT by SuperJlarge]
Remington precision ammo is nothing special. That alone gives the edge to the 6.5 PRC. That said, for competition shooting, very few ppl use the 6.5SAUM in bolt guns, so I’m not sure why you’d want heavier recoiling in a gas gun.

It seems like you really like this idea, but there’s a 99.9% chance it won’t be commercialized.

Also, you were recommending rechambering a bear creek barrel. While I’ve never used them, I’ve never witnessed anaccuracy report that was even mediocre, so I’m not sure why you’d spend money on rechambering one of their barrels. I’d personally go with something that will get me into the half moa range so that it could be effective at longer ranges.

Anyways, good luck. Sounds like you need to get into reloading to run the 6.5 SAUM. Just take care of that brass, because it isn’t cheap.

George is a big fan of the 6.5 SAUM, but here’s his thoughts on the 6.5PRC.
George Gardner, 6.5 PRC
Link Posted: 4/16/2018 9:21:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/16/2018 9:25:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2018 9:43:34 PM EDT by SuperJlarge]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Ummmm....

What does the SAUM do the the PRC doesn’t also do? Both need a longer magazine, and both need a mag bolt face.
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 12:02:46 AM EDT
You're a gas-gunner. You recognize the clear advantage that high-BC 6.5mm projectiles have over other calibers for long-range scenarios --- and, you want the highest performance available today.

The good guys at Copper Creek Cartridge Co. offer, both, the 6.5mm RSAUM and the 6.5mm PRC, using Hornady brass and with C.O.L.'s compatible with AR-10 magazines ---
---
(http://coppercreekammo.com/product/65saum-143eldx/) - - - - - - - - (https://coppercreekammo.com/product/6-5mm-prc-143gr-hornady-eld-x/)

I'll take the 6.5mm RSAUM, please.
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 6:52:34 AM EDT
In my opening Post, I offered a link for Applied Ballistics Internal Magazine Dimensions (COAL) --- http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/AppliedBallisticsMagazineLengths.pdf

Here's a look at some of the available short-action auto-loading rifle magazines, and their inside lengths---
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 7:45:12 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:
Remington precision ammo is nothing special. . . .
View Quote
Armed with my Bullpup'd Remington 40-XB chambered for the 6mm Remington, using Remington factory-loaded 6mm Remington ammunition loaded with Remington 80-grain bullets, I regularly connected with high-country marmots, in varying wind conditions, at 12,500 - 14,100 feet, at ranges betwee 500 and 750 yards ---


Link Posted: 4/17/2018 8:23:04 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:
. . . It seems like you really like this idea, but there’s a 99.9% chance it won’t be commercialized. . . .
View Quote
Considering the effort that has gone into the development of the forward-thinking 6.5mm RSAUM/6.5mm GAP 4S SAUM cartridge --- and the potential positive impact it promises on America's otherwise painfully-slow evolution of sporting arms and ammunition (http://innovationtrail.org/post/innovation-gun-industry) . . .(https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2009/10/15/innovation-in-the-american-firearms-industry/) --- I'll take those odds.
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 8:48:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2018 8:54:52 AM EDT by SuperJlarge]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SKY-PUP:

Considering the effort that has gone into the development of the forward-thinking 6.5mm RSAUM/6.5mm GAP 4S SAUM cartridge --- and the potential positive impact it promises on America's otherwise painfully-slow evolution of sporting arms and ammunition (http://innovationtrail.org/post/innovation-gun-industry) . . .(https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2009/10/15/innovation-in-the-american-firearms-industry/) --- I'll take those odds.
View Quote
Yea....George did a lot with the SAUM, but now is pitching the PRC. That should be a hint.

50fps faster using a load that’s more expensive doesn’t thrill me (the Hornady ammo is only 35$) 50fps isn’t enough of a difference for choosing a cartridge in the first place, imho. Did you notice that copper creek listed the drop at 1k for both as the same, or equivalent? That’s the second hint.

If you like or can find Big Green’s precision ammo to meet your needs, good for you. The 260 was the rival to the 6.5 creedmoor and they weren’t smart enough to develop any loads for that cartridge. You think they would for a niche round?
The PRC is pushed by George and developed and produced by Hornady. It has the support to be successful. Remington is under bankruptcy and has grown stagnant; the 6.5 SAUM is at a huge disadvantage.
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 9:16:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2018 10:38:57 AM EDT by SKY-PUP]
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 10:32:40 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Were you really associated with a gun publication in the past?

I’m having a hard time understanding what you’re doing and what you’re saying most of the time. Just cutting and pasting what others have done before you, throwing it up on a forum, with nothing else to support the post/info.

Im pretty sure that the other author was saying that the PRC couldn’t go in the AR-10 due to the bolt face being a magnum. That’s the way I read that entire paragraph. Same would hold true for a SAUM, in that authors eyes.
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 10:46:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2018 12:12:47 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
Thank you for your positive input: "It [6.5 GAP 4S SAUM) does make for an impressive hunting round."; "Anyways, good luck."

Re the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM magnum bolt face, scroll-up this Thread to my Post 222, "Back in 2001, the short-action auto-loading "Fat Lady" of the times, the .300 WSM, caught executing a graceful exit through the American Spirit Arms Side-Charging .308 Ejection Port ---" In short: A magnum bolt face is not a problem for the AR-10, the 2.955" C.O.L. of the 6.5 PRC is?

Other examples of AR-10's chambering short, fat magnum cartridges:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2009/6/29/armalite-ar-10-t-ultra-300-rsaum/

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/DPMS_300_SAUM/121-232548/
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 10:58:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2018 11:01:19 AM EDT by GMZ]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJlarge:

Yea....George did a lot with the SAUM, but now is pitching the PRC.
View Quote
Seems like the SAUM was just a stepping stone to prove the concept was sound and that there was a market for such a caliber.

Why not just hot rod the 6.5 PRC in a magnum bolt faced AR? It seems that would be an easier sell.

I'm fully vested in the 6.5 SAUM with enough components to burn out the barrel and want to be butt hurt but a factory 6.5 short mag is a great thing for everyone. Hopefully this will push more bullet companies to make more .264 bullets in the 147+ range.

ETA: not sure why the hang up on COAL when as loaded by C4 they both share similar dimensions that would fit in a number of SR25 pattern mags.
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 11:31:05 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GMZ:
. . . ETA: not sure why the hang up on COAL when as loaded by C4 they both share similar dimensions that would fit in a number of SR25 pattern mags.
View Quote
GMZ,

That's just the point. Copper Creek Cartridge Co. has no problem attaining Hornady's 6.5 PRC advertised muzzle velocity with the 143-grain bullet, with a 2.840" C.O.L.! So, why a 2.955" C.O.L. from Hornady?

The comments from our shooting world are well-founded: "What does it [6.5 PRC] offer that the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM doesn't already?"; "Why didn't they just standardize the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM?"
Link Posted: 4/17/2018 12:42:30 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SKY-PUP:

GMZ,

That's just the point. Copper Creek Cartridge Co. has no problem attaining Hornady's 6.5 PRC advertised muzzle velocity with the 143-grain bullet, with a 2.840" C.O.L.! So, why a 2.955" C.O.L. from Hornady?

The comments from our shooting world are well-founded: "What does it [6.5 PRC] offer that the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM doesn't already?"; "Why didn't they just standardize the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM?"
View Quote
Hornady lists that as the maximum coal..... it can be loaded shorter, obviously. Not sure why you’re hung up on that. What if they standardized the 6.5 SAUM with a 2.953 maximum COAL?

There’s not a wide variety of gas guns with mag bolt faces; why tailor a load to something that there may be 100 or less built of in a year?? They want to sell bullets. If they like the results of a specified COAL for bolt guns, meeting saami specs, that’s likely what they’ll use.
Link Posted: 4/18/2018 4:40:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2018 9:37:52 AM EDT by SKY-PUP]
One of the Posts, above, reminded me to a Page of a draft in my "Articles Various" files, Thank You Remchester, 50 Years of Offerings: A Rifleman Remembers ---

Link Posted: 4/20/2018 8:03:21 AM EDT
Why is the 6.5mm Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum becoming such a popular cartridge in the world of long range hunting and competitive shooting?
http://bluemountainprecision.com/blog/post/6-5-remington-short-action-ultra-magnum-6-5-saum
Link Posted: 4/22/2018 3:58:24 AM EDT

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2009/6/29/armalite-ar-10-t-ultra-300-rsaum

The Remington Ammunition Ballistics Chart (https://www.ableammo.com/catalog/ammo_charts/Remington_Ammunition_Ballistic_Chart.pdf)
shows the .300 Remington Short Action Ultra Mag, 190-grain Sierra BTHP MatchKing (BC - 0.533), Muzzle Velocity, 2900 fps. Using the handy gundata.org compare two cartridges ballistic calculator, I compare the 6.5mm SAUM (A), with 150-grain Sierra BTHP MatchKing (BC - 0.713), Muzzle Velocity, 3050 fps, against the .300 RSAUM (B), dialing-in the above data. MV, 24" Barrels. Shot at sea level ---


I dare state that had Remington offered a 6.5mm SAUM, early on, long-range shooters would have a winner, today.
Link Posted: 4/26/2018 1:57:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2018 7:29:47 AM EDT by SKY-PUP]
Another long-range shooter looking to build a 6.5mm SAUM AR-10 ---


https://www.ar-15.co/threads/35072-anybody-got-an-ar-10-in-6-5-284?p=310421&viewfull=1#post310421
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

ETA:

Using the handy gundata.org Compare 2 Cartridges Ballistic Calculator, I compared the Copper Creek Cartridge Co. 6.5mm RSAUM (A), loaded with the 143-grain Hornady ELD-X bullet (BC - 0.625), MV - 3050 fps, C.O.L. - 2.850", against the Nosler Match 6.5mm-284 Norma (B), loaded with the Nosler 140-grain Jacketed Hollow Point bullet (BC - 0.529), MV - 2750 fps, C.O.L. - 3.228". Sea level, with a 10 mph crosswind, from 24" barrels ---

Link Posted: 4/28/2018 6:19:15 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SKY-PUP:
AR-10's available today.

A cursory check of the Internet revealed these Models, available primarily in .308/7.62x51mm NATO, and some in .308/7.62x51mm NATO and 6.5mm Creedmoor:

Aero Precision M5E1
American Spirit Arms .308 Side Charging Rifle
Armalite AR-10
Bushmaster XM-10
Daniel Defense DD5
DPMS GII
Falkor Alpha .308 DMR Rifle
Fulton Armory FAR-308
G.A. Precision GAP-10 G2
Grey Ghost Precision Specter Heavy .308 Rifle
Knights Armament SR-25
LaRue Tactical OBR 7.62
LMT .308
LWRC REPR MKII .308
Noveske Rifle N6 Gen3 7.62
Palmeto State Armory AR-10
POF P308 Edge
Rainier Arms RA 308
Remington R-25 GII
RRA LAR-8 .308
Ruger SR-762
Savage Arms MSR 10
Seekins Precision SP10 .308
Sig Sauer SIG 716
Smith & Wesson M&P 10
Stag Arms 10s M-Lok
Windham Weaponry SRC-308
ZEV Technologies SF-Maten .308
2A Armament Xanthos .308 XLR

And, as noted in my opening Post, Accuracy Systems, Inc. offers AR-10's in a variety of short-action magnum chamberings.

ETA:

Alex Pro Firearms .308
F&D Defense FD .308
CMMG, Inc. MK3 .308
Colt LE901-16S .308
Wilson Combat AR-10 .308
Shaw Precision Guns ERS-10 .308
View Quote
I've been updating this list of present-day AR-10's. And, yesterday, I came across a couple articles on the Shaw Precision Guns ERS-10:

https://gundigest.com/rifles/ars-rifles/e-r-shaw-ers-10

https://www.gun-tests.com/issues/30_2/features/AR-10s-in-308-Win-and-65CM-26821-1.html#.WuOUSljwbcc

I'd like to see an ERS-10 chambered for the 6.5mm RSAUM !
Link Posted: 4/30/2018 4:00:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2018 11:22:18 PM EDT by SKY-PUP]
Thank you, George Gardner

In my April 13, 2018 e-mail-request to John M. Dwyer, Jr., Chief Technology Officer, Remington Arms Company, LLC (see, above), I opened with, "The 6.5mm caliber is hot !"

But, back in 2001, when Remington introduced their .300 Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum, that wasn't the case. And, not surprisingly, the .300 RSAUM offspring, in 2002, was the 7mm Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum --- not the 6.5mm Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum.

Indeed, it wasn't until the introduction of the 6.5mm Grendel, in 2004, that interest in the 6.5mm caliber took off. The 6.5mm Grendel, "The little cartridge that could" --- in the AR-15 platform --- proved itself on targets:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1250867_ARCHIVED_THREAD____Interdasting__Alexander_Arms_relinquishes_6_5_Grendel_Trademark.html&page=3#i30879121
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1250867_ARCHIVED_THREAD____Interdasting__Alexander_Arms_relinquished_6_5_Grendel_Trademark.html&page=3#i30888773

And, on big game:


And, in 2008, the 6.5mm Creedmoor was introduced --- for the AR-10 platform.

Then, in the early years of this decade, George Gardner, G.A. Precision, developed the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM cartridge: magnum-cartridge performance, with standard-cartridge pressures = long barrel life:
A winning combination ---

http://forum.snipershide.com/threads/new-gap-extreme-hunter-in-6-5-saum.169451/page-11#post-3099089


http://forum.snipershide.com/threads/new-gap-extreme-hunter-in-6-5-saum.169451/page-12#post-3108008



Meanwhile, our sport-shooting world anxiously awaits 6.5mm SAUM factory-loaded ammo.

NOTE: Remington Arms welcomes Consumer input (see my Post #233, above). E-mail your needs/wants to: info@remington.com
Link Posted: 5/3/2018 6:38:35 AM EDT
You can't read a book by its cover

Upon reviewing one of the ten (10) Reports on the release of the Hornady 6.5 PRC cartridge, New from Hornady: 6.5 PRC (Precision Rifle Cartridge) http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/10/24/new-from-hornady-65-prc-precision-rifle-cartridge/ (As was typical among most of the Reports, there was no mention of the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM cartridge, or its developer, George Gardner), I took note of a featured link, "Specifications: Hornady Match 6.5 PRC 147-gr. ELD Match". I clicked-on the link, and was encouraged: The reader is greeted with a photo of an AR competition rifle on the Page ---

But, when I played the video, the harsh reality of Hornady's latest offering hits you: AR-10's and the 6.5 PRC don't mix.
Link Posted: 5/5/2018 3:51:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2018 3:54:27 AM EDT by SKY-PUP]
Conspicuously Absent

I came across yet another Report on the Hornady 6.5 PRC: #11. And, it, too, followed the now-familiar playbook exhibited in most of the others: In eight out of eleven Reports, there was no mention of the 6.5 GAP 4S SAUM, the hot item appearing in gun forums, the past five years. And, I thought it telling that only one out of the eleven authors had the untethered temerity to state, "Much of the [6.5] Creedmoor appeal is it's ability to function in the AR-10 platform. The [6.5] PRC will have none of that."

If the shoe fits:

https://www.fieldandstream.com/pages/are-good-gun-writers-dying-breed
https://www.chuckhawks.com/gunwriters_whores.htm

But, today's savvy shooting enthusiast isn't fooled ---

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/hornadys-new-6-5-prc-your-thoughts.3939982/#post-37108216

We deserve better. Remington, don't let us down. Give our sport-shooting world a Remington 6.5mm SAUM.
Top Top