Assuming 0 repeater and network infrastructure what is the furthest you have been able to consistly reach that would be good enough for daily check ins?

Thanks

It really depends on terrain and antennas.  

From home I can hit a repeater 30 miles away with an HT, but that's line of sight to a mountaintop, and I am on an elevated foothill ridge.

I would not at all be surprised to be able to talk to another handheld on the same mountaintop. And would actually expect to be able to communicate easily with 2 HTs connected to yagis pointing at each other.

Two HTs on level ground, maybe a mile at best.

Look up "Fresnel Zone" and it will explain a lot.

My brother and I were able to communicate easily more than two miles on the SC coast on 146.550 using a couple of GP380 handhelds. I was somewhat surprised since there were a lot of buildings between us at downtown Myrtle Beach.

I can communicate with Illinois APC member no problem on 40m digital modes most days. If there were guys further west I'd imagine it would be the same except using 20m instead.

I have likewise done 17 and 22 miles with HTs.  22 miles was to a 199 ft tower on a hill from the top of a 14 story building.  17 miles is to a repeater on a tower on a hill from level ground.  With 50 watt mobile I have only made one contact beyond 10 miles. It was approximately 11 miles to a similar station; both of us using good equipment and lucky on our locations at that instant.  Elevated yagis pointed at eachother would add a lot.  I'm trying to get my brother to get his ticket and put a yagi on top of his 2 story shop building 25 miles away.

HF Phone - probably most of Texas and surrounding states with no issues.

HF Data - Can hit both coasts pretty easily.

HF CW - Same as above.

VHF- Never gone for pure distance. I've got a VHF amp, so I could probably do alright. It's flat here though so it really hurts us. The ARES group does a simplex net on VHF and I've participated. Never had anyone say they can't hear me when I use the amp. Probably a 35 mile radius from my house. Without, cut it down a lot.

Can you hit the same stations EVERY day?

Happy fun playtime?

HF voice or data, coast to coast (easier with data, much easier with JS8Call data mode).
- Level of expertise required for setup/operating: HIGH
- Level of experience required for knowing what bands to use when: HIGH
- Still won't work when the planetary K-index is over 4 (geomagnetic storm), a condition that can often last 24 hours.

Serious use?

No such thing. There is literally not a single family member or close friend that cares about this shit, so there will be nobody to check in with.

Hyper-local when it's really TEOTWAWKI?

Box of pre-programmed radios in the basement with solar chargers, to hand out to neighbors on the street.
- Level of expertise and experience required: LOW.

Remember that when it's merely SHTF, i.e. there is infrastructure, just maybe not local to you, THIS is the go-to solution. GLOBAL coverage. No fuss, no muss, no knowledge needed, no experience. Works almost like your cell phone for texting and emails. No worries about reaching family and friends outside of the beaten zone, no worries about them reaching you.

I really don't have that much free time to even try that. So I have no idea. But given my experience of shit happens, I'm gonna go with no on the every day part. Atmospheric noise alone can shut it down even if the band isn't shut down. That would be expecting way too much of something that relies on a star several million miles away to work right.

Having a network is much better for SHTF. That way someone can hear and pass along info. Groups have moved info quickly across the US and even world. Now is it, as fast as a phone call, text or email. Not even remotely. But, if it had to be done it can be done.

There are some hardcore emcomm folks who think they're gonna ride in on a white stallion and save the day some day. That probably will never happen in all honesty. We get hit with bad storms all the time, yeah the cell network goes down. But they put the portable towers up quick and it's back on fairly fast.

I may or may not hit the same stations ,but I hit the nets and traffic can be relayed every day I try. But for the most part, I can hit the same people on their specific day as NCS on 80m for IL, MO, TN, central Gulf Coast. On the Tues evening Arf net I can reliably hit maybe half a dozen from TX to East Coast on 40m. If this were a daily net, I believe that I would hit them most days. There are a couple of stations in VA that I can hit easily, we just have to figure out what is working best at the moment (phone, digital. 20m, 40m).

I have no useful experience with distance for VHF/UHF.

It’s dangerous to go alone. Take this:

RF Line-of-Sight Tool

I live in a river valley surrounded by mesas and mountains on all sides. The furthest I've bothered with is about 25 miles; I have several locations identified that work for mobile-to-base. My base station is always on standby on a secure LMR channel and my fiancee knows how to use it. We have both voice and data capability on those radios.

I'm licensed for a couple of VHF low band freqs as well and just acquired some TK-6110 mobiles. If my Radio Mobile projections are anywhere near accurate, that system will completely cover us for county-wide communications.

Based on the experience with the digital net, I think you could have 90% or better reliability
(ETA: nationwide) once a day. You will need to time the communications to work best with your target band.

On-demand communications wouldn't be anywhere near that, though if you were sophisticated
you could probably use one of the slow non-QSO modes to signal on 40 or 30M to arrange
communications.

except when the coming massive EMP from a massive CME takes out all the sats and most of the grid and everybody's red dot

I'm assuming that you are responding to my statement on SATCOM? So I guess you missed the part where I wrote "Remember that when it's merely SHTF, i.e. there is infrastructure, just maybe not local to you"

We live in a different world than the Carrington event. A much harder, as in hardened, world, brought on by the specter of nuclear war. A future Carrington event is unlikely to amount to very much in terms of damage to both space-based and terrestrial infrastructure. But, along with EMP, it remains one of the favorite survivalist wet dreams of communications preppers even though the math says they are both pipe dreams

I thought you would pick up on me joking when I mentioned the red dot.

I guess i should have used one of these

Ok, so now I'm

How widespread is the outage/incident?  As long as the bird is still in the sky and a NOC is operational, I can still shitpost on the interwebs... and with that, roip and cellular are services I can run from my pickup.

Comm trailer is a real hotspot (heh) when cell's out in the entire county...

Pipedream? When the survivors live in pipes?

Most mountaintop repeater sites have backup power, or are designed to work full time with power generated on site using propane.

Of course, it only takes one link to go down to break a whole network of linked repeaters, but the Intermountain Intertie has a system of linked repeaters covering most of Utah and parts of Nevada and Wyoming.  The Cactus Intertie system is private, but it spans from California to Texas.

In the event power went out for most people, these repeater networks should continue operating for some time.  They would eventually break into smaller and smaller sub-networks as links went down.  Individual repeaters with a large supply of fuel, or solar power, could remain operational for many months.

There are pitfalls with the solar though.  IIRC in Utah a very remote repeater inaccessible most of the year went down because of heavy snowfall blocking the sun from the solar panel, diminishing charge capability, and long winded weekly nets depleting the battery reserves.

I think anyone with access to the big linked repeater networks could probably have reliable communications for a time, provided the repeater owners don't decide to secure them with a code to exclude users that aren't in their particular group of SHTF allies, which is also something that bears consideration.

Just because there are plenty of repeaters you can use now, doesn't mean they won't suddenly go "private" if the owners decide they need uninterrupted access more than you do.

I have several spare HTs and a few battery/solar solutions along with a simplex repeater controller.  Not as slick as a typical duplex repeater, but a lot cheaper and a lot easier to set up and use, if you can stand hearing yourself.  The "two baofengs in a box" repeater builds are going to suffer from antenna separation issues for most people, and that issue alone makes them a lot more tedious to set up properly.

0-120 miles + on 3.920. Morning, noon and night.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pipe%20dream
Scroll down to the etymology to see where the expression came from.

In the suburbs with mostly single story houses and pine trees, my nephew and I got about 1.5 to 2 miles with uv5rs.

He was inside his house, while I was driving to the dump. Did radio checks every minute or so until we couldn't understand each other.

I have routinely been able to check in to a Souix Falls South Dakota repeater net from my home. 300 miles as the crow flies. Tropo is fun sometimes.

Beofang uv82hp with the antenna that came with them about 5 miles in city with one person on my porch and me driving around.

What's your setup like, power, antenna etc...?

I have a friend who is right out of VHF/UHF range at around 50 miles away and would like to get reliable HF going but not sure what setup would be best. He has the room but I have a small lot that hinders the use of large dipoles.

At 50 miles you are going to need 80 meter antennas. Unfortunately 40 and up is useless at that range. While 10 and 6 can work well at that range, it is about tall towers and gain antennas to get reasonable signals, 100 watt rigs with 3 element beams on each end can expect s5 or so signals, maybe if the terrain is not too bad.

BUT 100 watt class rigs with LOW 80 meter dipoles, and I mean dipoles 10 foot off of the ground can expect 20 dB over S9 signals, except during the noon time, when signs may drop to s5 or s7 or so. To pick up again by 4pm back to that s9 to 20 dB over.  This is NVIS (Near Vertical Incident Skywave) that you want for local coverage out to about 200-300 miles. D layer absorption does knock the signal down during the height of the sun during the day. More and more absorption as the sun climbs higher in the sky, and less and less as the sun angle becomes more acute.  It also follows that if you have lets say a 10 dB over S9 signal with a 100 watt rig that a 10 watt rig would be s9.  

Downside is 80 meter dipoles are pretty big at from between 120 to 132 foot long depending on which end of the band, 160 meters is similar but the antennas are twice as big.

For NVIS you don't want the antennas up high, you want them low.  Even 1 foot off of the ground works pretty well, Since on 80 meters it is difficult to get a wire antenna 1/2 wavelength (above 66 feet) up in the air to give it a low take off angle for DX, almost any 80 meter antenna amateurs put up ARE NVIS antennas.  But with LOW 80 meter antennas you are not looking for DX, you are looking for an antenna take off angle as close to 90 degrees as you can get it.  And low is the way to go. If you need to drive under it, and you put it at 15 to 20 feet that is fine. Mine is at 35, and those 20 dB over S9 signals is what my station and another station about 39 miles away came to expect day after day on 80 meters SSB voice.

Of course if you yard is very small, you will have to add inductors in each leg of the dipole to load this antenna to make it work. But of course your efficiency will suffer, but it is still doable.

Also don't start thinking about vertical antennas for NVIS, vertical's have low take off angles which is just what you want for DX, and just what you DON"T want for NVIS. You want low horizontal antennas.  Also known as "cloud warmers". The more energy you can put straight up the more will penetrate the D layer and reflect back straight down from the F layer.

My home antenna is a MyAntenna EFHW-8010 with the feedpoint 10’ off the ground and the far end in a tree about 25’ up. I plan to go throw a rope in a tree and raise the middle to change it from a slower to an inverted V. I also have an AlphaDelta DX-DD with the feedpoint at 35’ and the ends at 20’ that works really well for this application. The guys that hear the most and sound the best have big horizontal sky loops at 30-40’ up.

Not really. I've had no issues with short range (25-60mi) 40m contacts.  I've got a mere G5RV Jr because that's the most I can get away with on a tiny lot with an HOA.
I am able to make the same 25mi POTA contacts on 2m.

A side benefit of NVIS is that your background noise level will drop pretty significantly.

I have had very poor luck talking with my friend on 40 meters who is around 39 miles away.  he is just barely there and we have tried many times. But we can switch to 80 meters and the usual signal strength is 20 dB over S9.  This is with 100 watt rigs. I have tried both of my wire 40 meter antennas and he has tried wires and even his 40 meter beam with two active elements. Of course the beam was a bit better but still not good. Of course we can regulary work DX on 40. I often sit and ragchew with Europe on 40 SSB, not to mention the fella in South Africa that is on every night, ZS6CCY.  Of course 40 is great for signals out 300 miles or more, but I have had terrible luck for anything close in on 40.

Yes, and putting the antenna low instead of high does improve the signal to noise ratio to help get rid of long distance propagated static crashes.

While I haven't tried it, I have no doubt that an 80 meter low dipole with loading coils inline with both legs to resonant a much shortened wire portion so it was the size of a 40 meter full size dipole or even Maybe the size of a 20 meter dipole (33 feet total) would work well for NVIS.  Sure it would be very narrow banded, but that would not be a problem, and sure it would lose many dB's of efficiency, but with the signals I have seen over the years using NVIS, it would seem to me you have some signal to give up and still make good coms on 80 meters out to at least 200 miles. Heck I would not be all that surprised if two hamstick's fed as a low dipole would work. And those things are less than 2% efficient on 80.

But it would be a good experiment to take a 33 foot 20 meter dipole and stick two B&W minidux inductors in the middle of each leg with with a clip lead to figure out how much inductance you will need to get it to resonate on your 80 meter frequency and go from there.

I can tell you this much when I take my Little Tarheel II mobile antenna and stick 25 foot of wire on for a whip strung out over the bed of my pickup truck sloping up to the 24 foot fiberglass fishing pole, I get excellent reports checking in to the Missouri State SSB net on 3963 Khz.  And this is with a Yaesu 891 at 100 watts.  Without the sloping extra wire, it is "iffy" if I can be heard at all with the stock whip. The amount of "gain" with the wire is astounding.

While I haven't tried it, I have no doubt that an 80 meter low dipole with loading coils inline with both legs to resonant a much shortened wire portion so it was the size of a 40 meter full size dipole or even Maybe the size of a 20 meter dipole (33 feet total) would work well for NVIS.  Sure it would be very narrow banded, but that would not be a problem, and sure it would lose many dB's of efficiency, but with the signals I have seen over the years using NVIS, it would seem to me you have some signal to give up and still make good coms on 80 meters out to at least 200 miles. Heck I would not be all that surprised if two hamstick's fed as a low dipole would work. And those things are less than 2% efficient on 80.

But it would be a good experiment to take a 33 foot 20 meter dipole and stick two B&W minidux inductors in the middle of each leg with with a clip lead to figure out how much inductance you will need to get it to resonate on your 80 meter frequency and go from there.

I can tell you this much when I take my Little Tarheel II mobile antenna and stick 25 foot of wire on for a whip strung out over the bed of my pickup truck sloping up to the 24 foot fiberglass fishing pole, I get excellent reports checking in to the Missouri State SSB net on 3963 Khz.  And this is with a Yaesu 891 at 100 watts.  Without the sloping extra wire, it is "iffy" if I can be heard at all with the stock whip. The amount of "gain" with the wire is astounding.

I talk with an old timer 80 miles away almost daily on 2m and 70cm, much farther range on occasion with stations up in the mountains of AZ.

Still in effect for certain members of the populace although the crystal version is quite popular.

40m is likely to be better during the day. You’re not going to get NVIS with a beam. You need a dipole or loop 10-20’ off the ground.

What's the take off angle for a cubical quad?  It's a loop, but with directors and reflectors.  How would a quad work 10 feet off the ground?

No idea. I try to keep things simple. I do plan to build and try a quarter wave 75m vertical/inverted L with a counterpoise reflector soon.

I used to have regular contact (2M) with someone 30 miles away. I was using a 6-over-6 beam and 1W of RF.
He had similar sort of antenna, but ran a bit more power (10w?).

For range/reliability on 2M antenna polarization matters - horizontal is better than vertical.

I join a net each evening on 80m. Mostly, it's ok for surrounding states, but some nights, noise level and poor propagation REALLY limit things.

Using various digital modes and having access to 70cm-160m, my coverage is reliable pretty much nation wide. Europe and even Asia are doable with the right conditions, but not what I'd call reliable.

But if you ask me to hit a specific station, that's going to a different story.

Thank you. I'll see what we can come up with. We both have a couple of 125 watt Micoms we can dedicate to an 80 meter freq setup and leave the regular radios to play around with.

“Micom.”

Ahem:

Automatic Link Establishment

Yep, I already have the HFN network in mine.


I've used it with they Codan 2110 as well on just the 9' whip in the KCKS area to a friend with a 2110 as well in Washinton State and just left it sounding every 30 min or so. To my surprise we actually had eachothers calls in our stack when we checked later.

And mode.

2m SSB over flat midwest terrain gets you out to 250~300 miles with modest antennas, and unlike HF will work 24/7/365.

HF will obviously get you further at times, but at the expense of less reliability and substantially more complexity.

It's easier if you think of HF as using infrastructure... the big fickle solar powered reflector in the sky.