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Posted: 11/5/2018 1:31:46 PM EDT
I've had the idea of building a vegetable garden in the back of my head for a few months now, and when the opportunity presented itself yesterday, I jumped on it. Plus- it was something my boys have been excited about for a couple weeks now, so I wanted to do it with them.

The box is a very basic 4'x8' that is roughly 10" in soil depth. Soil is roughly 24 cu.ft. of composted mulch and 6 cu.ft of Happy Frog Soil Conditioner. First, a few pictures. Then I've got some questions.





The box gets full sun from ~10AM through 5PM. I ran 1/2" flexible pipe to the box (seen as a T coming up into the lower right corner of the box in the above picture) and it is on a small electronically timed controller.

My intention was to follow our local planting advisory from the University or Arizona and plant only crops that are called out for in that document. My plans for the current crop was carrots, onions, broccoli, and lettuce. If I can squeeze more in the 4x8 space, I'd like to add in Peas.

Questions:
The 1/2" tubing has a natural curl to it as a result of its original coiling. Is there a way to get this stuff to lay flat? Will the sun naturally warm it and drag it down? Should I use a heat gun?
The drip irrigation nozzles I bought at 1 gph. Is that appropriate for the entire bed, or should they be different depending on the vegetable?
Should the nozzles be equally spaced throughout the bed in order to uniformly saturate the entire bed, or should they be placed over where the seeds/crop are coming out of the soil?
When I sow seeds, should I make a small gully the length of the bed and scatter the seeds equally throughout it, or place them in small piles in increments called out on the seed packet?
Should I irrigate daily, or less frequently but for more time?
The guy at the nursery assured me that composted mulch should make up the majority of my bed. Most of what I've read on the internet calls for composted manure, not mulch. Did I go wrong here? Should I add something other than the composted mulch and happy frog amendment?

I'm sure I have many more questions, but these should get me at least started.
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 2:54:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Why would you build a vegetable garden in the back of your head?????
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 3:46:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I've had the idea of building a vegetable garden in the back of my head for a few months now, and when the opportunity presented itself yesterday, I jumped on it. Plus- it was something my boys have been excited about for a couple weeks now, so I wanted to do it with them.

The box is a very basic 4'x8' that is roughly 10" in soil depth. Soil is roughly 24 cu.ft. of composted mulch and 6 cu.ft of Happy Frog Soil Conditioner. First, a few pictures. Then I've got some questions.

https://preview.ibb.co/cb6Qq0/20181104-130801.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/jk2WV0/20181104-164428.jpg
https://preview.ibb.co/cNKZiL/20181104-170624.jpg

The box gets full sun from ~10AM through 5PM. I ran 1/2" flexible pipe to the box (seen as a T coming up into the lower right corner of the box in the above picture) and it is on a small electronically timed controller.

My intention was to follow our local planting advisory from the University or Arizona and plant only crops that are called out for in that document. My plans for the current crop was carrots, onions, broccoli, and lettuce. If I can squeeze more in the 4x8 space, I'd like to add in Peas.

Questions:
The 1/2" tubing has a natural curl to it as a result of its original coiling. Is there a way to get this stuff to lay flat? Will the sun naturally warm it and drag it down? Should I use a heat gun?
The drip irrigation nozzles I bought at 1 gph. Is that appropriate for the entire bed, or should they be different depending on the vegetable?
Should the nozzles be equally spaced throughout the bed in order to uniformly saturate the entire bed, or should they be placed over where the seeds/crop are coming out of the soil?
When I sow seeds, should I make a small gully the length of the bed and scatter the seeds equally throughout it, or place them in small piles in increments called out on the seed packet?
Should I irrigate daily, or less frequently but for more time?
The guy at the nursery assured me that composted mulch should make up the majority of my bed. Most of what I've read on the internet calls for composted manure, not mulch. Did I go wrong here? Should I add something other than the composted mulch and happy frog amendment?

I'm sure I have many more questions, but these should get me at least started.
View Quote
Cool project.

I use 1/4 tubing to run water to each dripper.  Much more flexibility and precision.  You can run that 1/2 tubing down the length, and then tap into it with the smaller lines.  The merit of drip irrigation is that it places the water exactly into the rootball, minimizing water usage, so I would recommend not irrigating the entire bed.  That will also keep weeds down.  The only time I "saturate" is with my carrot bed, which I broadcast sow and then coil 1/4 soaker line throughout that bed for good coverage.

I water daily.  I can't imagine less than that in Arizona.  Duration varies through the season, but usually 1/2 hr is okay.  When things start really getting hot, then I can hit it with a hose or just do a manual cycle on that zone of my irrigation system.

I don't know about the mulch/manure question.  You'll find out pretty quickly if what you have is going to work.  I've built my beds up painstakingly over the years with organic material of many kinds, turning them slowly from crap (bentonite) into something worthwhile and black.  At this point I throw a couple bags of cheap composted cow manure (the $1.50 bags, really not fancy) into the beds that have had heavy feeders planted the previous year and call it good.  Sometimes I bag the lawn clippings and sprinkle it lightly in the beds and let it dry; the beds get turned over eventually somewhere between harvest and planting.  Bottom line: soil improvement is a process, and the incremental approach works.  Don't drive yourself crazy the first year.  Just getting the beds placed in the yard and set up and your initial garden planted is a WIN.  Every location has its idiosyncracies, and by observation you will figure it all out.

You should have room for peas.  They go up a trellis/fence/net and you can put them along one bed edge; their roots shouldn't compete with the others' there.  But get the peas in early; they scald easily.  A sunshade helps my pea harvest tremendously, and allows it to keep going further into the growing season.

Pole green beans -- same bed-edge/trellis comment as for the peas.  I get a lot more beans per foot planted than I do for peas.
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 3:53:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 11/5/2018 3:55:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Cool project.

I use 1/4 tubing to run water to each dripper.  Much more flexibility and precision.  You can run that 1/2 tubing down the length, and then tap into it with the smaller lines.  The merit of drip irrigation is that it places the water exactly into the rootball, minimizing water usage, so I would recommend not irrigating the entire bed.  That will also keep weeds down.  The only time I "saturate" is with my carrot bed, which I broadcast sow and then coil 1/4 soaker line throughout that bed for good coverage.

I water daily.  I can't imagine less than that in Arizona.  Duration varies through the season, but usually 1/2 hr is okay.  When things start really getting hot, then I can hit it with a hose or just do a manual cycle on that zone of my irrigation system.

I don't know about the mulch/manure question.  You'll find out pretty quickly if what you have is going to work.  I've built my beds up painstakingly over the years with organic material of many kinds, turning them slowly from crap (bentonite) into something worthwhile and black.  At this point I throw a couple bags of cheap composted cow manure (the $1.50 bags, really not fancy) into the beds that have had heavy feeders planted the previous year and call it good.  Sometimes I bag the lawn clippings and sprinkle it lightly in the beds and let it dry; the beds get turned over eventually somewhere between harvest and planting.  Bottom line: soil improvement is a process, and the incremental approach works.  Don't drive yourself crazy the first year.  Just getting the beds placed in the yard and set up and your initial garden planted is a WIN.  Every location has its idiosyncracies, and by observation you will figure it all out.

You should have room for peas.  They go up a trellis/fence/net and you can put them along one bed edge; their roots shouldn't compete with the others' there.  But get the peas in early; they scald easily.  A sunshade helps my pea harvest tremendously, and allows it to keep going further into the growing season.

Pole green beans -- same bed-edge/trellis comment as for the peas.  I get a lot more beans per foot planted than I do for peas.
View Quote
Awesome information! Thank you. I'll circle back to this thread and post some updates if/when things start to pop out of the surface.
Link Posted: 12/2/2018 5:08:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Well, things have sprouted. In honesty, they sprouted at around the 7-10 mark, I've just been procrastinating.

Questions:

It's been about a month now. Do I need to feed/fertilize these at all?

In the below pictures, you can see quite a bit of crowding along the rows. Do I need to thin things out?

Three rows of carrots. They came out strong, but really haven't grown much in the last week. I'm thinking these are the most crowded? How much should I remove (if any?)



Lettuce. It is definitely being chewed by something, but I don't see any bugs. There were birds digging up/attacking my pea plants. Could they have also chewed up the lettuce leaves?



Buttercrisp lettuce. You can see the chicken mesh I put over the lettuce and peas. This lettuce seems to be growing nicely.



Pea plants. I tented some chicken wire over them because of the birds picking at their roots. They seem to be doing well? They are planning three abreast with about 8" spacing before the next 3.



My biggest concern is that these rows are now sprouting way too densely together. I don't want to shunt anythings growth, so I'm curious how much of them I need to remove. Can I replant whatever I take out in the middle areas where I've got nothing planted?

And aside from my journey on my first vegetable garden, my boys absolutely LOVE coming outside with me every day and checking on the progress, so the project is a success even if nothing grows another inch!

Thanks all!
Link Posted: 12/2/2018 6:02:39 PM EDT
[#6]
It's OK to plant dense rows.  Just thin them per the seed packet instructions keeping the stronger plants.

Your plants are a yellow green which means fertilize. Use some fish emulsion or some 10-10-10.  Don't overdo it.

Also don't over water.  Stick your finger in the soil.  If it's moist, you're good.  Too much water encourages shallow roots and it can leech nutrients from the soil.

Mulch isn't a great growing media.  Next season try some garden soil mixed with composted manure.

Look at your plants every day.  Turn the leaves over looking for infestation.  Hand pick the bugs if you can, or try a little mild soapy water spray.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 1/1/2019 11:23:05 AM EDT
[#7]
57 days in and the garden is looking pretty nice. We've had a couple of nights of frost, so I've covered the bed overnight and taken the blankets off in the morning. Not sure if that is necessary, but so far everything is still alive.

I've tapered back the watering and the leaves have seemed to turn from the yellowish-green they were before to a more rich green. I imagine that's a good thing.

There are no pea pods on the pea plants yet. I'm not sure if having them too densely planted is causing that. They are all about 12" tall thus far. If I thin them, would they grow/produce faster?

The lettuce is coming in nicely. Most plants are around 10" tall with 8-10 leaves per plant. Not sure when to pick them?

Below is a picture of a carrot I pulled. I thinned them two weeks back so they are about 3"-4" between each sprout. Below is a picture- it doesn't appear to be turning into a carrot. Does that take longer than 57 days?



Thanks for help thus far. The boys are real excited!
Link Posted: 1/1/2019 1:51:15 PM EDT
[#8]
I think my pea vines flower when they’re a foot or two  tall. You should be close.  Some thinning now would make sense if you overplanted

I pick lettuce leaves from the outside rather than pulling the entire plant. You should be GTG.

Carrots are done when they’re done. Yours look fine but immature.
Link Posted: 1/4/2019 8:56:13 AM EDT
[#9]
Does your composted mulch still have a lot of wood chips in it? Looks like it from the pictures. That is poor growing media as it will lock up nitrogen and cause plants to yellow.
Link Posted: 1/9/2019 10:01:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 1/13/2019 11:26:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Does your composted mulch still have a lot of wood chips in it? Looks like it from the pictures. That is poor growing media as it will lock up nitrogen and cause plants to yellow.
View Quote
It does, unfortunately. I had done a ton of research before heading to the nursery, did not want a heavily wood chip based growing medium but got talked into it by the guy at the shop. In retrospect, I regret it now. It's not a ton of wood chips and it looks like more than it is due to its density relative to the rest of the soil and it "rising" when I water or it rains, but it does have wood chips in it.
Link Posted: 1/13/2019 11:38:37 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
OP your plants need more nitrogen. (based on the pics before the carrot plant in your hand)

You have wood chips on that garden, and although I have not read closely, I'm guessing you are watering.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
OP your plants need more nitrogen. (based on the pics before the carrot plant in your hand)

You have wood chips on that garden, and although I have not read closely, I'm guessing you are watering.
I am watering with an automated drip system

As the wood chips rot, they tie up the nitrogen in the top layers of soil, and therefore it is not available to your plants.

So...you need to fertilize with a VERY MILD solution of something like Miracle Grow, or the equivalent.

NOTICE...I said VERY MILD.

That's important.

If you are new to gardening, don't make the mistake of thinking "if a little fertilizer is good, more must be better."

it's not better.  You can kill plants with too much.

Mix it half of what the box says.

Three days later, look again.   Go easy with it.
I fertilized today with Arizona's Best (a GROWELL product), which is a 10-10-10 mix. I took your advise and only applied half of its recommended dosing. I fertilized with this product at its full dosing recommendation about 4 weeks ago.

ETA:  Most carrots are about 80 days to maturity from planting.  So at 57 days, you have a while to go.
After thinning at the advise of previous posters, the stalks of the carrots have gotten heartier and the roots that I'm pulling look like they are starting to thicken.



Lettuce:  You want young, tender leaves.  Start pinching off the mature leaves now and see how they are. they should be tender and sweet, not tough or bitter.  You don't pull the whole lettuce plant (if you planted leaf lettuce.  Head lettuce is different.)
You pegged it- this is leaf lettuce. I ate some today and it was delicious- soft and sweet. I probably have this romaine too densely grown and will pull or cut some crowns shortly to thin it. The outer leaves are roughly 8"-10" and tear easily.



Peas...what has your weather been like?  What temperatures?  Have you seen blooms?  Are there insects to pollinate the blooms?  (don't know where you are in AZ, and don't know your climate for gardening, but peas like cool "spring-like" temps.
Weather has been cool. We have had a few nights in the past two weeks of below freezing temps. I covered all of the plants with a blanket on those nights. I am in the Phoenix metro area, so we have fairly mild "winters" with lows in the 20s at night and highs in the 40s to 50s in the day. The peas are planted fairly densely as well. I'm not sure if I need to thin them to get them to grow more productively? Also, the color is a little paler green than the other crops. I've never grown any, so I'm not sure if that is typical or not. Today was the first day I noticed two blooms (you can see them in the below pictures). Is that a sign that pods are coming next?





You can also see a row of onion growing next to the peas. They're equally pathetic.

Here is a shot of the overall condition of the bed, and then a shot of the composition and moisture of the soil. You can see how the wood chips look much more pervasive at the surface.





Link Posted: 1/17/2019 12:50:28 AM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 1/18/2019 8:35:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
1-Peas are a little paler(or sometimes just a "different" ) green than some other crops.  Your peas look good to me.  Yes, the pods follow the blooms.

2-Those onions do look a little spindly.  See #4, below.

3-That lettuce color looks pretty good overall.  A tiny hair darker green wouldn't hurt it, but spring lettuce is usually a lighter green, depending on the variety.  I would keep doing what you're doing and take that lettuce as a good job.

4-If I'm seeing the photo right, you may be overwatering just a tiny bit. (It may not be as wet as it looks to me.  I want so badly to reach in the screen and feel that growing media. ) You don't want your soil to dry out to the point that plants wilt, but the plants don't need to be in wet soil all the time.  That may be part of the trouble you're having.  Maybe skip a day watering (or wait a day longer between waterings) and watch it closely and see what happens.   Especially with root crops, you don't want the roots too wet.

You have a conundrum.  Lettuce loves more water.  But your onions and carrots cannot have "wet feet" and do well.  Drainage is key for them.  So don't back off too much.  But maybe just a tad bit.  Watch carefully and take everything I'm saying as from a gardener who has never grown anything in your climate.  These are general thoughts, so keep that foremost in mind.

If you stick your finger down in the middle to bottom of that soil, is it wet?
View Quote
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, KWS (and everyone that has posted thus far!).

The peas have seemed to "brighten" a bit since the most recent fertilizing.

The onions look like sad weeds. I'm just going to let them do their thing and see how it turns out. If I understand correctly, onions can take quite some time to grow to full maturity?

I've continued to eat the lettuce. It's really good and it's also the first time the boys have ever eaten lettuce- I speculate it's the pride in knowing they grew it, which is really cool.

The photo of the soil in my hand is a bit misleading- it was taken very shortly after watering in the fertilizer. It does not usually look that moist. On a normal day without me hand watering, if I dig about 4-5 inches down, the soil is cool and wet, but not sticky or muddy.

I can certainly try and alter the watering schedule. As it is now, the full system waters for 20 minutes every morning. I can set it to only water every other day. Or perhaps just start to turn the time down progressively?
Link Posted: 1/18/2019 10:14:33 PM EDT
[#15]
OP, I can’t grow onions to save my life so no advice there.

As far as the carrots, you will need a lot more top green growth before the roots really get going.  Remember that the carrot is a biennial, and it will grow and store a lot of energy in the root before it can flower the second year.  It needs a lush green top to make a lot of sugars that are then stored as starch in the roots.  I think you just need to give it more time in addition to being careful about fertilizer as already noted.  57 days?  Seems on the short side unless they want spindly little carrots.
Link Posted: 1/18/2019 11:44:23 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 1/19/2019 12:18:44 AM EDT
[#17]
RE the onions:  if they don't develop, you still get scallions.  The majority of the onions I plant get used that way.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 2:43:59 PM EDT
[#18]
So over the last few days, I've noticed a tinge of green starting to creep over the bed (mostly by the peas and onions). I looked this morning and sure enough there is green mold starting to form on some of the surface wood chips.

Last week, at the suggestion of some in this thread, I turned back the watering to every other day for 20 minutes instead of every day at 20 minutes.

Should I wait and see at the new watering cycle if the mold goes away on its own? Should I rotate that top layer so it does not get sunlight while it dries out? Or should I attempt to remove it?
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 10:08:24 PM EDT
[#19]
I'd bet its algae or moss over mold. I'd say a moisture meter may be a good investment for you. Plants need a wet dry cycle for proper nutrient exchange.

ETA. Green growth is harmless. Mold doesn't grow in sunlight. (AFAIK)
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 10:31:54 PM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 1:07:23 PM EDT
[#21]
when the soils water level is right you will be able to create a clump that will crumble easily.  besides that it would require a moisture sensor
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 4:53:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Also consider https://extension.arizona.edu/.

Whether you want to become a Master Gardener or just want a weed identified, a great local resource for you.
Link Posted: 2/2/2019 12:54:26 AM EDT
[#23]
I've pretty much left the garden alone with just the occasional look in on it from time to time. I went out just now and pulled the smallest of the carrot stalks and, lo and behold, my carrots are starting to carrot! I'm excited to see that it's actually happening (I'm not sure what I thought was going to happen when you plant a carrot seed), but I'm more thrilled with how excited my boys will be tomorrow morning when they see this!

Link Posted: 2/3/2019 12:26:54 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 3/9/2019 10:45:56 AM EDT
[#25]
Thank god for bagged salad at the grocery store...

This past weekend we had a few people over for ribs (sous vide for 3 days) and I was really hoping to harvest some of the lettuce for a salad. Admittedly it was definitely "past" its projected harvest dates, but I was going to discard most of the outter leaves and just use the inner parts. The boys and I took a bunch in the house to wash the leaves and that's when we found them:







Almost every head of lettuce was infested with these little guys. They look like aphids, but I did not think they came black in color?

Anyway, we trashed the whole harvest.

My big questions are:

1) How can I avoid this issue in the future? I'm not opposed to using some form of insecticide, I'm just not familiar with the types and their use.

2) I have removed all of the rows of lettuce from my vegetable bed and am preparing to start my next cycle of crops (green beans, cucumber, and melon) in that area. Is there something I should treat the soil with to kill any of these little guys that are living within it so I don't immediately infest those new crops?

3) Once soil has been "grown in" for lack of a better phrase, is there something special I should do with it to prepare it for planting something else there? Fertilize, tilling, amendments?

Thanks all!
Link Posted: 3/9/2019 11:50:14 AM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 3/9/2019 12:08:25 PM EDT
[#27]
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