well since this is a gun forum and we have a great thread on the SHTF handgun
and any plans for strategic relocation are over due to the housing prices

I started going over my SHTF long Guns and optics. SHTF for me is the usual and also semi unknown we are currently all living in. Kenosha riots were a wake up for all in my area.
Some observations as I get older good optics are a blessing. Some red dots don't work good with my eyes. I can still easily and quickly hit man size targets at a 100yards plus. I train often.

I live on 40 acres in the midwest, My area is a little odd as I'm close to two big cities (Milwaukee 1 hour and Chicago 1 hour 20 minutes [too close in my mind and about 30-40 minutes from Kenosha]) but my actual township has really low population density.
My property I can reach out over 400 yards and further going past my property.  My area is hilly surprisingly.

I have a a M16a4 clone with acog, a M4gery with acog, and a few other AR's with vortex and Burris prism scopes (work very well with my eyes)
I have a .308 USMC m40a3 clone that I never use too.
Had AK's and SKS's and sold them last year as I never used them.



But my two most used are:
A 5.56 Recce build with 16" barrel, Larue qd mount, Primary arms 1-6X (with BDC rectical), BUIS, and a can. Not Sure the primary arms scope is robust for SHTF

Ruger 10/22, can, and Thermal Hogster scope (love this better than my NVG's as I can really see what is going bump in the woods at night.
I grab those 2 guns all the time

I was going to make a higher magnified AR but gave up the idea as the 3x-5x prisms work so well in my area. I'm trying to downsize but have a couple extra rifles for family that will come here if the SHTF.
I have great luck shooting the Vortex 3x prisms (gen 1 and 2) and the Burris 5X prism. I just don't know how robust they are for SHTF and they use batteries. I love Acogs and Dual illuminated RMRS and have a few but that is getting expensive


Do most of you use rifles or carbines? Iron sights or optics? Do you have optics on "hand out" guns?
What works for your area?

All my long guns and I have more than a few, are scoped, save for the two AK types.

You seem to be dialed in and squared away, so I'll just add that I'm in Miami and I have no close friends here, or neighbors that I'd lend a weapon to, unless the zombies were climbing over the wire, then all bets are off.

I'm more or less resigned to my fate, should chaos ensue and I'm OK with that.

Chris

I have a few scoped rifles and a bunch with red dots and magnifiers.
In my woods, it would be unlikely to shoot over 100-150 yards.
But after watching some videos of the Ukraine happenings, I'd like to get something in 6.5 and a good scope to reach out there a bit.
Do they make a solid, SHTF type 5x prism?

I prefer carbines with optics.

I don't have any hand-out rifles; they're all for me.

I keep a MK18 in my work vehicle. Currently it has a MRO on it, but I'm not buying any more of those. It did fine at SWAT school, but if I get some more CompM4s I'll swap one of those onto it.

I'd prefer 14.5" or less for SHTF unless I'm running a DMR (16" AR10). 1-8 LPVO on that guy.

Really the 14.5" 5.56 would only be preferred if there's significant outdoor action.

I have an LMT with an ACOG, and a Mk18 with red dot.

While I can see farther than 300 yards in my area, I've never shot farther,  so see no point in magnified optics.  Unless I get my own range someday.

Typical carbine for me is  AR-15 with16" barrel, LPVO 1-6 or 1-8X.  I tend to build BCM or Aeroprecision.  I have lights and suppressors on my home defense weapons, but typically would not have a light on a SHTF carbine.  I have carried the LPVO for 8 hour + classes, and by the end, the weight was starting to take its toll for offhand and shooting while moving.  I got a 2X prism scope that is lightweight and will probably take the place of the LPVO for most uses.  The nice thing about the LPVO is you can magnify to see your target or to gather data. I don't think it changes much shooting wise over a prism or red dot for most scenarios.

WI here as well.

11.5 sbr Geissele with socom rc2 and Aimpoint t2 for me.

I keep coming back to my 3 gun rifle build. WAs set up to run east coast matches, so think lots of stuff inside 25 yards needing speed, out to maybe 500 in a blue moon.

It’s perfect for that role. 18” JP barrel, 1-4 trijicon, other go fast parts that have proven very reliable. Add a light if it’s going to be dark snd it’s ready to go.

Heavy by today’s standard but stupid accurate.

I like my suppressed 300sbr and my rattler more but those are really better for inside the house distances.

Get a basic reloading set up. Get some trigger time on that 308.

Mine, including a Aero 16” M5 in 308 are all wearing ACOGs of various flavors with the exception of my 6.5 Grendel wearing a Trijicon Accupoint 3x9.

Weight, durability, light transmission, no batteries, etc make these in my mind the best do it all options. My go to has the ECOS Dr.Optic on top of the TA31.

Stay away from commie glass. It’s heavy, bad glass that leaves you hanging at dusk & dawn with regard to light transmission, is poor economy, and enriches your enemies that want to destroy & subjugate you, plus the probability it will break on you when need it & the chips are down with no possibility of using the warranty ever again is much higher.

I think everyone who has SHTF rifle/pistol/chest rig needs to run it through a 3-gun.  I’ve learned more from three gun matches than anything and I’ve taken a lot of instruction.  You really find out what works FOR YOU not the cool guy that recommended xyz thing.

I think it’s really hard to beat a 12-16” AR with an ACOG for SHTF.  That said I like my .308 and have seen some not so great lethal affects from 5.56, pretty sure in SHTF I want the d.e.d. dead so it always weighs on me. Punching a bigger hole if they are somewhere you might have to go find them seems like a good idea.

NATO calibers because they are on all the dead bodies, I love 6.5 G and C but they aren’t in the SHTF lineup, things you’d never see would be 300 BO I’ve had horrible success with that round defending the chicken coop for those that love it rock on, I don’t care.

as Steve commented... my 3 gun competition carbine would be my go to,10 years of matches with a 4x and practice with stadia ranging reticle... 16" mid with a 4x32 ACOG... currently a TA31F....the older TA01 is on the SBR

after cataract surgery in my second eye, I am back to 20/20 for distance ....

I just built my go to, so I would stop using my wife’s go to. Which that fact alone told me that having all these rifles I imagined would be used for one thing or another was kind of silly in the end. Because in the end I kept grabbing the same rifle for going back on the farm, checking out bumps in the night, and etc. So I built a very similar rifle.

Lightweight 16” barrel with a lightweight full rail. I opted for an ACOG TA-33 vs her reflex but I am also putting a RMR on top when it gets here. A suppressor and a sling.

I can’t carry more than one rifle reasonably so I needed one that could do everything called upon here in the Appalachias.

My go to is 12.5 with a TA33/RMR and SOCOM suppressor

all of my go to guns have optics of some kind. i think a fixed mag acog with an rmr is about as close to a perfect do anything rifle as you can get for 0-400m. especially if the majority of shooting is on the lower 2/3rds of those distances

yeah my 3gun rifle was built over a few years as I went from a basic random guy trying to a sponsored, pretty serious competitor. The only original pieces are the take down pins

It's heavy though. I have debated getting away from the comped 18" bull barrel to something lighter/shorter, but the damn thing runs so well I don't want to mess with it.
I've considered buying/building something similar but really don't know if that's worth tying up the money for little to no return. the velocity makes drop easy to calculate, and the 50/200 zero means that inside like 250 yards I just put the tip of the ^ where I want the bullet to go and it's within 2". Anything father and just aim high.

Probably should actually spend the money on a better light and sling mount stuff.

I like other stuff. I like shorter stuff, I recently bought a rattler, etc. But those are all like niche use, travel or inside the house guns. The long gun makes sense in a "one gun forever" situation.

The aimpoint PRO has a 3 year battery life, if your still alive and still fighting that long you’ll most likely have picked up a few weapons.

I would say it's situation dependant based on location, transportation, goals, etc.  If a vehicle is doable, then I take take a few tools, if on foot one particular.  

I am particularly fond of mini-recce builds.  Wouldn't mind 12.5, but use a suppressed 11.5 with an Accupoint 1-4 .  Takes care of most of what I need, good for 200 yards and up close too.  11.5 is kind of the sweet spot for suppressed weapons and operation.  Good food  cars, longer legs than Mk18, not overly long when suppressed.  Good optic that doesn't require batteries.

If a  vehicle is available, then a 16" gets tossed in for longer.  Maybe an x95 or another 11.5 with an Acog.  All suppressed.

A top notch sling is mandatory!

For serious use, sling, light and optic are basically essentials (in that order).
I'm favoring a 12in, suppressed 5.56 carbine with a 1-4x Trijicon TR24G.  It's very nice out to about 200 (rounds in the triangle from 0-250 with a 1.93 mount and 100yd zero).  
I am debating looking for a 1-6 or 1-8, so I can ring out the rifle a little better.

A red dot or small prism is probably best for general use (and lighter weight).  That said, I like the increase in practical accuracy with LVPOs vs red dots at distance.

thanks all great info!
went out today to the backyard range with the cheaper prisms and the ACOGs and wow the ACOGs are pretty much perfect!
I have an M16A4 clone with a TA31RCO. This rifle (musket) never gets used and I feel it's a waste just sitting in my safe because of nostalgia.
will the TA31RCO work OK on a 16" upper? It blows away my Burris 5x that is not really that bad. I could just throw a carry handle on the A4 and never use it again




I have 1000's of rounds of M118LR, gold cup match, and sub sonic. it's just too heavy to carry around the property


The 4x ACOGs are pretty close. there is a 5.5X and 6X acog that are reallY expensive




Cheers neighbor

Op, if you like the ACOGs then check out something like the TA-33 I have or the TA-11 as they both have much better eye relief...much better.

Not for me. I’d be heading for seclusion.

Agree
I may get rid of all my cheaper prisms and get another acog

for me,  military cartridges, both NATO and commie.  Good optics, scopes and dots.  Lots of magazines and parts.   Lots of practice.

I'll chip in...  This is NOT meant as a flame.  Merely I'm seriously trying to contribute to the conversation in a very well meaning way....

Its a gun forum.  And people here are largely gun enthusiasts.  So it makes sense that we are, by and large, kind of OCD and nit picky about what constitutes the 'best' firearms set up.  

In reality, its likely all serious overkill.  The overwhelming majority of us will never need a firearm for defense of home and self. Of the very very small minority that do, odds are extremely high that just about any somewhat decent firearm set up can effectively get the job done.  Yes, I know that's heresy here.  But its seriously the real answer.  a Marlin 1894 lever carbine in 357 or 44, or a 1940's vintage Winchester 94 in 30-30 (0r 32 Special for that matter) definitely ISNT top tier defensive weaponry.  However, it'll adequately get it done.  Small for handguns... Forget the whole 9mm vs 45 debate, or why the SIG 320 trumps the Glock.  Odds are extremely high that your great uncle's 1960 issue S&W model 10 can handle most defense work...  Again, forgive the heresy...  Its kind of fun and intriguing to mentally work through all the choices and come up with a 'optimal' package however...

With that said, I'm now 54.  And aging eyes simply do not utilize iron sights with any real degree of proficiency anymore.  So optics begin too make serious sense.  My A1 and A2 configured carbines have given way to a flat top with a LPVO.  I dont like it, but I need the crutch....  Since I move from Fudd guns to ARs regularly, there is an advantage in having similar sights.  All wear LPVO.    The commonality makes it less complicated, more reliable and faster for me....

I recently began shooting IDPA type matches.  I wholeheartedly recommend this as a means of figuring out your equipment.  It will QUICKLY show you where the holes are.  If you've got equipment issues, its will crop up.  If you've got an optic that doesn't work for you. you'll see that too...  And you'll learn that its not the arrows but the Indian that counts...   There will likely be guys on the line with gun belts that cost more than my Glock.  The latest in red dots.  High speed low drag the whole way....   And this gamer dude withnteh big budget will regularly be solidly spanked by some geezer with a wheel gun and a lot of time behind the trigger...  

Instead of focusing obsessively about the right optic, or the advantages of this mount or that bolt, buy some modest gear, take the extra money, buy ammo and SHOOT.  Not plinking.  Not benchrest.  Some sort of shoot and scoot active shooting sport where you are running the clock.  The practice will improve your abilities and hits more than this optic vs that optic sort of worrying and gear selection.

Side Note...  Back in the early 90's Im at an outdoor range in Central Florida.  A couple guys show up with about $50,000 worth of Class 3 hardware.  Full on mag dumps into the 100 yard berm.  One guys has some little HK 5.56 with about a 12" barrel, and he's burning up serious ammo at b27 targets on the 100 yard line.  Out of a 30 rounder, he's getting maybe six hits, many of which are "marginal.  And a geezer pulls up with a Win 94.  Loads up, and cranks out 5 rounds in about 8 seconds.  Not fast shooting, but spirited.  All 5 are in a little cluster about 3" across, right smack dab in the center.  All he said was "those boys sure do make a lot of noise dont they?"....

In rebuttal…
If you ever do need it, however remote the chances, you will be putting absolutely everything on the line. 100% your life and possibly the lives of your family if you fail. It can all be decided not in seconds but rather milliseconds.

So while I agree that practice is likely more important to a degree, I also consider my rifle to be a key life saving component and want every single advantage I can possibly get.

What of course gets interesting is we all have our own ideas of what gives us the most advantage. Even more interesting is the fact that the biggest advantage these things may impart is confidence, and that is invaluable.

So while yes it’s possible that a lever action may do all you need, you better pray to god you don’t run into a couple people that have modern rifles and know how to use them. Fire superiority is a real thing as is suppressive fire and fire and maneuver

And what do we give up by having the best optic and rifle we feel is right for us? Nothing.

Ironically I find myself defending a rifle while in the pistol thread I wrote them off as not really mattering. But I suppose it is because I consider a rifle a primary weapon and if they are out then things are bad…or you are rural like me.

Attached File


I will not be “handing out” even a slingshot to anyone who doesn’t already have a weapon. The reality of the “handout” scenario is the hand-ee will be ineffective at best, and will likely lose or abandon anything given to them for free. Give them a broom, or a laundry assignment.

Use for yourself whatever you are comfortable and competent with.

I’ve been known to like rifles and carbines with a primary magnified optic, and backup dot-sight.

I may or may not have a few to choose from but
my 16" light weight with a Vortex x1 prism is what I would
grab. I've found I don't need to turn it on during the day.
I do like the first gen controls vs the 2nd gen

But that is if you made me get out of my recliner

Some strategic concertina wire might not be out of the question in your situation, keep people from creeping up on you.
For the rest of us that live in closer proximity to neighbors, make friends with them and have multiple fire extinguishers at the ready, if you watch some of the video from the ANTIFA/BLM riots the shop owners that defended their business had many scattered around.
I only have five, probably pick up a couple more.

I know 5his is SHTF Rifle. But… my carry rifle, as in travel out of town, is actually a 300 Bo AR pistol with Laws Tactical Folder. Compact and fits into a Backpack really nice when folded.

So for mobile or travel SHTF, this is my set up with Eotech attached

Attached File

11.5  with an EOTech EXPS and 3x magnifier on a larue lt101 riser. As well as a 16in with a 1-6X LVOP on a geissele 2.14in mount (I think, pretty sure).

Both sighted in for M193 at around 48yrds and 52yrds. Its been awhile since I got out unfortunately.

We live in a semi-rural area, outside a town of about 6000. The area has several small spring fed lakes, farmland, and couple of little subdivisions where it's wooded and very slight rolling hills.  Most hunters around here usually bag their deer well inside 100 yards. While most of the ranges are well within 300 yards, there are areas you could reach out further. For me, it's mostly carbine sized with LPVO.

I have extra ARs, but not really for "hand-outs". There were times I would have some of my long-time Army brothers fly into the area for TDY, so I always told them if they get stuck here, they have a bed and a gun if they needed it. For those "loaners" to those I know and trust, they're simple red dots.

Lots of great info here. As many have said, once you have what you think works for you, get a little dirt time in a 3-gun or similar type competition to shake your kit out and see how it works.

ROCK6

Be nice if I could go to a match - work schedule and location pretty much rules that out.
I also agree the top quality stuff is probably the best - but for guys like me, ACOGs are simply not an option. Maybe in a years time with my vastly improved living situation, with all the bills paid off then, but for right now my primary rides with a SIG Romeo5 on it, which seems to work pretty well for what I do. That's me as the ham planet in the plate carrier, which has been slimmed down to just the kangaroo pouch with three mags and a Mini IFK. Not in picture is a Surefire G2 mounted left side, where the support hand can thumb activate it.

Attached File


The BREN 2 also wears a Romeo5, but very recently I have been quite curious about the prism scopes, and the Sig Sauer BRAVO3 Prism Sight 3x at MidwayUSA is about 4 bills, which due to a bonus, I might be able to get. I think that would probably be a good upgrade from the Romeo5, which, again, I and my son have been quite happy with. It has a Surefire G2 light mounted and the same MagPul sling as above.

At my age/shape I am more low speed/high drag, but I will do my level best.

I have a lever 30-30 and it's not getting used much as ammo is well over $1-2 round if you can find it.

I shoot a lot. I have two ranges on the property and agree you need to train / shoot.


As for handouts it was for family that would show up at the property to help defend it. A semi shtf fantasy (but I read about the Bosnian conflict and families joining together) I'm good friends with my well prepped neighbors (almost everyone in my area is well prepped in some way).

At work today I kept thinking  Hmm RMR on my ACOG?? I have LPVO's and never put them on 1x and leave them at max. My current acogs work ok at close range with both eyes open (fiber optic is bright) and not sure I want to train myself to look over the acog.


Funny thing is the last time it got spicy in my area I grabbed a M4 clone with carry handle
but I"m really liking prisms to to target ID.

some great info here that is helping.

I'm a red dot guy, so that's what my rifles are mostly topped with, and all Aimpoints.

When I am out and about on my 10 acres of mountain land, I almost always have a beater lightweight carbine with me topped with an H-1. So I guess that's my SHTF rifle.

I come back in, my HD rifle is an SBR topped with a T-2, I guess that's my SHTF rifle also. In my head I still call an SBR a carbine though.

Long drives that are hours long and overnight trips, I bring a carbine that has an TA31 with a Type 2 RMR piggybacked. I guess that it's also my SHTF rifle.

So as far as what would be my SHTF and in carbine form, the first one my hand grabs really, so long as it as either an ACOG or an Aimpoint micro. I try to keep my rifles as light as possible and found out that LPVO's were not for me, there's no benefit. But all must have a light mounted and all do have lights mounted on them.

My theory has always been, to buy the best you can afford and then get good at using it.  I started w/ an SKS, moved to an AK, now an AR w/ a Romeo 5.  I have a couple of build kits that I need to finish.  I also have an LPVO sitting in the closet that I haven't had time to mount.  I always seem to either have plenty of time and no money or lots of money and no time.  

I never was high speed, but buggered up knees make it worse now, so I felt having an LPVO and a 10x monocular on my kit would help provide separation to see and ID people.  

As others have mentioned, get good w/ what you have.  If you upgrade, get good w/ that.  When all I had was an SKS, I was accurate out to 250-300 yards w/ it and I could slam another ten rounds into it pretty fast for using a stripper clip.  The other benefit of lots of training is that it helps you find the weakness in your setup.  For example, the SKS ran flawlessly, never jamming, failing to fire or extract, etc. - until it got too dirty, then it would dump ten rounds in one pull of the trigger.  I don't use the old SKS much anymore, but I'll always remember if I'm putting a lot of rounds through it to stop mid-way pull the bolt and clean it and the firing pin.

Every rifle I own is equipped with an optic of some sort, but the ones I consider legit SHTF guns have back up sights as well.

Sounds to me like the cosmoline never got all cleaned out of there.

I had cleaned it thoroughly when I got it and it was clean before I shot it.  The ammo I was using was cheap and dirty (I want to say it was Silver Bear, but I don't recall exactly).  I put about 400 rounds through it that day w/o cleaning.  When I pulled it apart, the triangular firing pin was all gummed up, couldn't slide back and forth, and the tip was sticking out the front of the bolt.  I don't recall the company, but there are aftermarket firing pins that fix the issue.

that's a feature, not a bug

Good old fashion 3-9 on most of my bolt guns that are used for hunting.  

I have a Remington model 600 .308 bolt action that sports a basic red dot.  I turned it into a bit of a scout rifle.  

My go to rifle would be my beat to hell SKS with irons.  It will do all that I need and then some for any realistic defensive range in my AO.

I will take regular and basic over high end and fancy any day of the week.  

I am NOT high-speed low drag and don't need to pretend I am.  

Because I am not high speed or low drag I need every advantage that tried and true modern optics offer. Faster, intuitive, and more accurate.

If it gets me on target even half a second faster that might be the difference between my family’s survival or not.

Got it, you like to overcompensate for what you lack thereof. Cool!

However in this thread per the OP:

thederrick106 has what works for him in his area. And I thought this was a discussion board, not a crush any dissent to the narrative board.

Anyway, what he chooses isn't what I would choose however I am not threatened by what he says as it doesn't change what i would choose. It shouldn't threaten you either.

You have got to be one of the most combative and divisive posters on this board, which is quite an accomplishment. Congrats, I guess.

Would you like me to quote each divisive post you did in turn, to show the projection and how you don't like seeing what you do yourself? Or are we good at letting others opine and no wanting to argue about their choices such as caliber selection, platform, night vision or no night vision, optics or no optics?

You seem to feel very threatened by those not in line, lock, step, and heel. The difference between us both though? I am not.

To keep in line with the OP's thread, to me the AR15 in the M4 configuration with just one simple but vetted red dot that doesn't suck and a sling that also isn't crap, would be the universal perfect rifle for everyone. Easy to shoot, easy to use, and can be easily modular should they seek a light and other things.

However I have known folks that were in fact better suited for things that larpers scoff at, like lever guns or even shotguns, some even bolt actions. For those that chose them... It's all they have known, because they've used it a lot and have in the field. I know veterans that will only use the AR15, it's all they have known too. I can't fault either groups because there is sound logic in wanting your end of days rifle to be something you absolutely have done things with. It became their security blanket of sorts.

Neither group bothers me. We want people to talk and discuss, not be crushed when feeling threatened by. Food for thought.

16in carbine with T2……slap on a vortex 3x micro if needed

First, no one survives alone. Ever.

All my loaners have optics, minimum, a suitable red dot. My go to is a mid length 12.5 TRIARC barreled with an adjustable gas system. Usually a RifleSpeed or a Strike Industries. (I have several like this) Optics on my go to are typically 1-6x or 1-8x. My truck/trailer guns are usually beater AK's in 10 incher with minimum 3x optics. Everything is suppressed. My plate carrier and kit has a small pack on the back with a 6.5 Grendel upper, scoped in a soft protective case with two E-Lander 17 round magazines.  If I had to reach out, a simple pop and swap with an AR upper, switch the suppressor from one upper to the upper, in business.

I try just about all the new hot optics.  I always end up selling them and end up back at Aimpoints and ACOGS.  They are the perfect optic for a carbine or fighting rifle.  Lightweight, rugged, easy to use.

11.5", Aimpoint T2 with Aimpoint 3X magnifier, WML, suppressed.  

I can hit 1/2 torso plates out to 300+ with or without the magnification.  2800+ velocity out of the muzzle with 5.56 ball.  I'm willing to lose some velocity to save weight (11.5" vs a 16'), and the can keeps it shorter than a 16" with huge benefits to signature reduction.

For me it's the Primary Arms 1-8x with ACSS reticle. I noticed 1x is actually smaller than true size. I found the perfect spot somewhere between 1 and 2x and marked it on the dial. That's true 1:1 size, and for close quarters it works damn well.
For anything further ,you have up to 8 power.

For my handout rifles, I have irons. I guess in a perfect world I'd want all Daniels Defense rifles with Aimpoints and magnifiers, but if you show up to the party empty handed you get what you get. From me that's a hodge podge of low-mid tier rifles I've gotten for under $400/piece back when deals we're out there. Irons, cheap (but serviceable) light, and a sling. Perhaps one day I'll start acquiring some Primary Arms red dots, one at a time.