So looking for advice on pellet rifles! Looking to get one for cheap quite target practice and as another weapon to use if SHTF.

So right now I'm looking at  .177 or .22 for the caliber and wanted to hear people's thought and feeling! I did have a .177 when I was a kid used it to take coons and other small animals. I'd like something with more power as it was a 1,000 fps rifle.

I'm looking for something that is spring or gas piston!  Thanks!

Most of the advertised velocities on break action, "springer" style pellet rifles are being clocked with non-lead ammo to inflate their velocities. Many guns that advertise "1000fps" or "1200fps" are really doing 700-800fps with lead ammo.

https://hatsanairgunsusa.com/product/mod-85-sniper-vortex-closeout/

Hatsan is a Turkish company that makes entry level, but very powerful, airguns. Their springer airguns are some of the most powerful on the market. Mind you even a very powerful springer is weaker than many PCPs. Regardless, you'll see in their advertised velocities they'll give you both  lead-free and lead velocities. The .25s are a little anemic with the exception of the Torpedo model, as there's aren't any spring/gas piston power plants out there yet that can adequately launch a .25 pellet. But you can get plenty of power for .177 and .22. Look at some models you may like in the closeout sale then shop around to compare prices. Not all of the prices there are a deal but some are. The .177 Torpedo is a great deal. You wouldn't want to shoot the lead pellets as fast as the gun can go, they'll be cracking if you do. But you can use heavier than normal lead pellets to the the velocity down to about 900fps or so per shot, and the heavier pellets will give you more energy when they hit.

BTW, now is a great time to get into PCPs. You can pick up a quality hand-pump for $35 and a .25 PCP that will out perform any springer as a hunting and plinking gun for $275 or less.

The big advantage to a springer/gas ram style airgun is you don't have to do a lot of pumping to fill the gun up. But you do need to be aware that you may have to replace the seals at some point. You'll want to research how to do so on your model gun. Some springers/gas rams require a press similar to a bow press.

PCPs usually need a supply of orings, pure silicone oil/grease, and some Allen wrenches, to repair or maintain. I find them easier to keep in tip top shape than springers once you understand the ins and outs of the guns.

The Gamo Raptor PBA .177 pellet definitely fucks up my mild steel yard art more than lead.  I haven't clocked them.

I used to use a cheap Chinese single pump gun.  Now that I think of it, I gave that one away.

I shall watch this thread.  I kinda like the one with the "silencer" on the barrel.  Gamo Whisper on Amazon.

I have a Mouser 98 that I love.
Big, heavy and powerful.

It's the one with the scope in the picture below (posted along a real Mauser k98k)


Pellets vs Real Steel by SoloDallas, on Flickr

ETA link to it is here

I'd buy an RWS/Diana if you've got the budget for it.

I picked up a Model 48 and couldn't be happier.  Accurate (learn artillery hold) and kills varmints just fine.

There are RWS air rifles decades old that still work just fine.

I've owned several of the break-barrel type springers.  My favorites have been RWS.  I've had 'cheaper' units, and they generally suck, don't shoot as fast, and break quickly.  My RWS34 is solid...

the airgun concept comes up frequently in SHTF/Survival posts.  Usually, its "cheap ammo/ quite game collection" thinking...  In my experience the typical springer is as loud, or louder, than a basic .22 with CCI Quite ammo.  I tend to find that a quality springer is more expensive, heavier, and as noisy as a cheap .22 with the right ammo.

The air gun does come into its niche with certain legal aspects:  There are areas I can 'plink' in my backyard with an air gun that would likely cause LEO trouble with a "real" rifle (despite similar velocity, caliber, energy lethality, etc).  I much prefer to zap pest squirrels with a .22 (more accurate, longer range, more power) but I find that sometimes the little bastard is in a tree top, and I don't want to launch a .22 bullet into a subdivision a mile down the road.  I grab the .117, knowing the little pellet with safely fall to earth in a couple hundred yards..

I'm using a RWS34, which ran about $250, I think, and it does a decent job nailing squirrels and such.  I've taken rabbits with one.  I've tired one on 'coons, and not been impressed.  A note on ammunition;  Mine shoots well with GOOD pellets.  I'm using some form of flat point RWS .177 pellet, and they run about $12/500.  Flat points seem to have better effect on rodents.  I've tried cheap Walmart pellets (Crosman,etc) and they don't shoot well...

If its practice in the backyard, go for a basic 177.  If you envision quiet game taking, go buy a $129 single shot savage Cub and a box of CCI Quiet segmented.

Moderated .22 PCP or get out.

Any recommendations for a person experienced with break barrel pellet guns, but no experience with Precharged air guns?

It would depend on your budget. If you want to keep it under $300, look into a Hatsan Flash in .25 or .22 (about $275) or a Gamo Urban .22 (used to be $200, prices have recently went up, I wouldn't pay more than $225 for one). Between the two platforms, the Hatsan is the winner for being the most powerful and the most quiet. Sometimes more expensive Hatsans will go on sale. I recently picked up a $550 .22 Hatsan for $325 from Midway.

I have a lot of experience with the Benjamin Marauder. I own two and I've modified the guns a lot over the years. They're an easy platform to maintain and extra parts can be picked up on the cheap from Crosman (and orings from your local Lowes/Home Depot). They advertise for $600 but you can pick up new ones for around $400 if you shop around and wait for sales or use coupons. There's not a lot that can go wrong on a Marauder besides orings failing or maybe a magazine getting worn out. The Hatsans are a little more fickle because they usually have complicated mechanisms built into the gun for indexing the pellet magazine. Recently I had a pellet get jammed in my .22 Hatsan's indexing arm and didn't have a working magazine until I figured out the pellet was stuck in the gun.

If you want ease of stocking up on pellets, got with a .22 in whatever you get. If you want extra knockdown power to kill anything with a brain shot beyond 50 yards and smaller animals with lunch shots, go with a .25. The bigger hole the .25 makes does make a big difference on lung shots.

For your hand pump, look for this pump:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/PCP-Paintball-Airforce-High-Pressure-Air-Pump-Four-Stage-Brand-New-Style-Hand-Operated-30mpa-HPA/32856781273.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.115.2684475ed4F8F2&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_7_10065_10130_10068_10890_10547_319_10546_317_10548_10545_10696_453_10084_454_10083_10618_10307_537_536_10902_10059_10884_10887_321_322_10103-10890,searchweb201603_51,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=fc90bf7f-d950-482b-be7a-38fb04cc758c-15&algo_pvid=fc90bf7f-d950-482b-be7a-38fb04cc758c&transAbTest=ae803_4

https://www.walmart.com/ip/VEVOR-Airgun-PCP-Pump-High-Pressure-Hand-Pump-3-Stage-Stirrup-Pump-Up-To-4500PSI/906473104

Its sold all over Ebay, the Alis, and sometimes Walmart.com under various names, but its all the same pump made in China. It will often go on sale for about $35.

The Hatsan Flash and the Gamo Urban have smaller on-board air tanks than the Benjamin Marauder, meaning it takes less pumping to fill the tank between shooting sessions. The Flash in .25 will give you the same power and shot count as the Marauder in .25, at a lessor price and is much lighter and quieter. But I've never had to do heavy maintenance on a Hatsan so I don't know what would be involved in working on it. I know the Marauder is easy to work on. The Flash does feel a bit cheaper than the Marauder, but that's both a plus and a minus as the Flash is less packing weight.

this^^^^^

I thought pellet and bb guns were basically the same thing.  I've one that shoots both but the links above you have to pick one or the other?

The primary difference between a dedicated BB gun and a pellet gun is that most BB barrels aren’t rifled while pellet barrels are. BBs are steel and they’ll eventually eat the rifling of a steel barrel, while pellets are soft lead/tin alloys that won’t damage rifling. If you fire steel BBs down a pellet barrel, you are likely to ruin it over time. Some BBs are copper coated for the reason of protecting the barrel steel from the BB steel.

Some smooth barrels can still have a twist to them that will put a spin on both BBs and pellets.

I have a cheap RWS .177 pellet rifle that advertises 1000 fps. I have chroned it at a little over 1000 fps. I use it to keep sparrow out of my Martin house...works real well.

do you have any legal restrictions on shooting where u live.  Nothing beats cci 22 quiet segmented out of a 24 inch barrel!

No none at all just want something that if long term SHTF could be used for hunting and that was quite! I'm have a 22LR just looking for other tools. Break!

With the PCP is the .25 best caliber then? I did see the 9mm, 357 and 45 since I cast for a few of them but I'm guessing the hand pump does not work with it?

A hand pump will work with any PCP. Its just a matter of how convenient it will be for you to do a lot of shooting. The larger the caliber and more powerful the gun, the more air per shot its going to use and the fewer shots you'll get before you have to pump it up again. If you're not going to do a lot of pleasure shooting with the gun, and generally only shoot it to sight it in and hunt with it, you can get away with hand pumping a large bore PCP. You'd want to have a couple of back up hand pumps anyhow for prep purposes. I fill my guns with a compressor that can be ran from a generator. But if that isn't an option, I can hand pump all of them and only shoot the guns when needed. Lewis and Clark's .42 airgun they toured the West with used a hand pump.

You'll want to look at a gun's tank size. 175cc and under is pretty convenient to hand pump if you're otherwise in ok shape. 300cc takes a lot of pumping. But the larger the tank, the more shots you'll get. Many big bores use takes between 315cc and 500cc and pressures starting at 3000psi and a few do 3600psi or 4000psi. The higher the pressure, the more pumping it also takes.

.25 is a good all purpose caliber. You can lung shoot and make clean kills on animals up to bobcat size on an average-powered .25 PCP at you can brain shoot everything up to and including decent sized hogs. 40-50fpe is considered a normal power range for a .25 PCP/ A magnum powered .25 PCP is a coyote killer and probably a deer killer too on lung shots, but not legal in most places to deer hunt with that small of a caliber airgun so anyone who knows wouldn't be talking about it. High power for a .25 is 80fpe to 140fpe. I own one such magnum powered .25 called a Condor by Airforce and it shoots 60 grain HP bullets at 920fps for about 10 shots, or 25 grain pellets at 920fps for about 60 shots.

.300 and .308 is an even better all purpose caliber, especially if you can find a .308 with a large adjustable power range. .300 guns are generally pellet oriented and .308s are bullet oriented, but some .308 airgun barrels will also shoot .300 pellets well and you can have the best of both worlds.

.357 is a fine caliber for all purpose. Probably the biggest you can go with and still use it on small game head shots without making the animal unusable to eat. .45 is too much gun for all but varmint sized game and larger. Its not the gun to shoot a rabbit with. My sister-in-law tore a cotton tail in two with my brother's .45 airgun.

The guns I recommend if price isn't a factor is the Airforce guns. Either the Condor in .25 or the Texan in .308 or .357. If the Texans, go with the SS model, it is a suppressed carbine model. If the Condor, go with the full length Condor and add your own suppressor aftermarket, unless you just plain know that you are going to rarely shoot bullets out of it, in which case the SS Condor will be shorter and more maneuverable and give you all the power you'd want to shoot pellets with. With PCPs, longer barrels always equal more power, but there comes a point where a barrel can be too long to be practical, especially after you add a suppressor. You want a balance between power, shot count, quietness, and maneuverability.

Later tonight I'll post up specifics about my guns and my preps.

The point of my airguns is to give me something to hunt with that's quiet, so humans within earshot won't necessarily know what I'm up to, and will let me make my own supply of ammo without reloading components such as brass, primers, and powder. All I need is lead, a pot, the right mold, and an air supply. The airguns aren't supposed to generally replace firearms in my preps. Instead, the airguns specifically replace firearms for most hunting scenarios, allowing me to save firearm ammo for self defense.

My air sources are threefold. First, I use a compressor from China brand named Yong Heng. The compressor can fill a gun directly or a carbon fiber tank to 4500psi. The compressor runs about $250. Obviously it needs electricity, making it more for my day to day airgun shooting. But it can run off of a generator if needle. Second, I keep said carbon fiber and scuba tanks filled from the compressor and those tanks can fill the guns directly. Depending on the tank size and max PSI level as well as the gun's tank size and fill level, I can get many fills per gun per tank. I keep some tanks full and in storage. If rationed, the tanks could last me several weeks if not several months worth of hunting. Finally, I have several hand pumps just like the one I posted above to act as a last ditch air source. I have several generic oring kits for rebuilding seals in the guns or the pumps. Oring seals are the component most likely to go out on the guns or the air sources. Some orings are special sizes but many of the orings come right out of Harbor-Freight and big chain store kits.

For casting, I use a standard Lee pot with molds that for the most part, are designed for airgun barrels (the mold designer is an airgun guru). The company I buy the molds from is NOE. I have at least one mold per airgun starting at .25 caliber that each gun can shoot well.



Top left: 218 grain HPs for an Airforce Texan SS in .45. The gun shoots them at 830-840fps for 5 shots.

Top right: 60 grain HPs for a WAR Flex in .300. 930fps, but adjustable higher or lower. At this power, good for about 20 shots.

Middle left: 145 grain 45-70s Lyman collar buttons for the Texan SS .45. 10 shots for 900fps.

Middle right: 58 grain pellets for both the WAR Flex in .300 and a .308 Texan SS. The .308 Texan SS can shoot them as low as 900fps or as high as 1200fps, but I get the most bang for my buck at 1000fps. 20 or more shots at the low power, 10 shots at the mid power 1000fps.

Lower left: 98 Grain HPs for the .308 Texan SS. 950fps for 5 shots.

Lowerright: 45 grain pellets for a second WAR Flex I have in .300 but set up as a carbine with a shorter barrel and lower, more efficient, power. 860fps where set, but can be raised or lowered significantly. 60-70 full powered shots.

Those are all cast, and most of those I can also buy commercially swaged that are either identical or close to identical. The pellets are very similar to the JSB brand and the 98 grain HPs in .308 are identical to the 99 grainers made by Nelson Specialty Ammo, a dedicated airgun bullet company. The alloy I use is tire weight led with a fair degree of tin and antimony. Most commercially made loads are close to pure lead. Not pictured are my .25 bullets for my Airforce Condor. I do not keep a .25 pellet mold on hand, for no reason except I haven't gotten around to getting one. I don't bother with .22 or .177 molds because those pellets are so cheap to buy that its easier just to stock up on them from Walmart. My .22s and .177s shoot Walmart Crosman pellets excellently.

Here's how they mushroom at sub 900fps impact velocities (in fact most all of the impact velocities in this picture were around 800fps or less):



The far right pellet is a commercially made HP pellet with a ballistic tip.

The most all-purpose gun I have is the Texan .308 SS, as it can shoot either pellets or bullets well at a wide variety of speeds. Its also fairly quiet and maneuverable. I did a video showing it off after I had it a couple of weeks and was very impressed with it:



I posted this in the survival gun thread, but here it is with it's Florida camo job:



This other one is my .300 carbine, and I'd say its my second most versatile gun. It takes AR furniture and a Remington Model 700 trigger assembly, and uses standardized orings inside:



I've got a folding stock on it and the suppressor comes off easily, making it a compact gun to stow or pack. At 60-70 full power shots with 45 grain ammo shooting in the mid 800s, its appropriate for all small game and brain shots on larger game. At that lower power level, it still shoots thru 3/4" pine planks at 100 yards.. I know guys who say they take deer with .300 guns of that power level on lung shots with expanding pellets at close range, but I haven't tried that. No need to when I have much stronger guns at my disposal for deer hunting. The .308 will blow right thru a deer at 50 yards and make a wound channel that looks like a .308 firearm with bloodshot.

you asked this thread in 2013,
and2010

youre still looking?

Yep still looking! A lot has gone on since that time. I'm getting closer and closer to having a home with land that I can build a range on. Also, a lot has changed since 2010 and 2013 with air rifles.

Very interesting! I have looked at that air rifle just the $1000+ price tag is a little hard to swallow! At that price, I could easily buy a suppressor.

SwampFrog, thanks for the detailed posts!

Swampfrog!! Since you seem to have done a lot of work with these air rifles Id like to ask you here and not in some PM this question as I feel this might help a lot of people!

In your experience is it worth buying one of these high power air rifles? If you're able to buy a suppressor in your state?

I know wait time sucks for the tax stamp and being able to get the suppressor right now. But would like to hear from a person who has experience with these air rifles!

Guess it's air rifle vs suppressed rifle. Yet I do see where an air rifle would come in hand!

I played with the idea too,still have a few. There is nothing a air rifle does better than a suppressed 22. Even my single shot 22 with CCI quiets is better in every respect.

If you want a toy to play with,get one. If you want a serious tool get a good 22 and if possible a can. A good 22 will be cheaper than a decent air rifle too.

I would agree that a suppressed subsonic .22LR is going to outperform a .22 air rifle, but I assert a larger caliber air rifle will easily out perform a .22LR, even if the .22LR has more energy, in both range and terminal ballistics. Here's where I proved that by testing a .22LR shooting supersonic Minimag HPs against a .308 air rifle with the power turned down to give less energy than the .22LR. The .308 airgun made a vastly superior wound channel at 50 yards with less energy. The story might be different if .30 rimfires were still around. But they're not. A larger caliber and weight, with softer, easier to expand lead, will kill better than a faster, more explosive bullet, so long as the FPE difference between the two isn't huge.

This video also shows just how quiet the airgun is. The .308 airgun is capable of near 200fpe while still staying subsonic. Your .22LR can't make that power and stay subsonic, and therefore can't match the quietness of the airgun foot pound to foot pound.



But is it worth it? To get the advantage out of a high performance air rifle for survival prep, you need to have backup air sources and your own molds and casting equipment. The .308 Texan SS airgun: $1,100. Casting gear w/molds and tire weight lead: $300. Compressor, CF tank (used), and backup hand pumps: $450. You could get set up for a bit less than $2,000. About the price of a high end AR15 with upgrades and good sights.

I think you've got to enjoy the airgun for its own sake to make it worth your while. Otherwise you can take the money you'd spend on the airgun equipment, including casting, and just get as much firearm ammo as you can to last you until SHTF ends.

But do remember that the PCP has been proven for wilderness survival in the Lewis and Clark expedition. It is doable, and in that era it gave them a distinct advantage for being a multishot weapon that was quieter than their firearms and didn't use gun powder. The multi shot aspect is irrelevant now but the quietness and gunpowder preservation aspects are still relevant now.

The passion you have for these weapons is obvious,I watched many of your videos on them and they are certainly impressive. I think you summed up my thoughts on the matter when you laid out the costs and then stated you have to like them for the fun aspects to make them worthwhile.  I'm glad that you enjoy them as much as you do! We could have another discussion on hunting deer with what equates to a 380 auto round....let's just say I wouldn't. I understand your argument that energy alone means nothing, and I agree. I kill deer all the time with a sharp broadhead on a wooden arrow,which has almost no energy in the traditional sense.

But for the purposes of this discussion the OP,for the same $2000 it would take to get into your Texan air cannon,could buy:

A Palmetto State AR15 and 1000 rounds(750)
A Ruger 10/22 and 5000 rounds(450)
A Maverick 12 gauge pump and 500 rounds(300)
A Savage axis kit in 308 and 200 rounds.(450)
A decent fishing set up(50)

And be set to kill anything in North America effectively,as well as defend himself.  Make 200 rounds of the 22 CCI quiets and almost silent small game hunting is possible.

I just don't see an Air rifle of any type to be the answer to any survival hunting situation.

Recently I had a rat get into my laundry room, and one of the rat traps I keep in there didn't quite kill him. He was still able to climb all over stuff, albeit at a slower pace than a healthy rat. I could see him, but I didn't have an easy way to catch him amongst all the stuff. Deciding which gun to shoot him with, I had my pump up pellet/bb gun, or my 10/22. With my wife and kids just in the living room while I dealt with the problem rat, I didn't feel like shooting a 22lr in the house. Also, I wanted to minimize any collateral damage. 5 pumps on the pellet gun, and shooting the rat at near point blank distance, it was extremely quiet and the rat died instantly. Found the BB in the box the rat was sitting in.

While not a survival situation, this is one time when a pellet rifle performed the job better then any other guns I have could do. In fact, I would say shooting indoors with a pellet rifle is a lot safer than letting a 22lr loose inside. Sometimes you have to take care of critters and being quiet or not destroying things is the most important part.

Check your local gun shops and pawn shops for the high dollar break barrel air rifles. Found my Beeman RX-1 .20 cal for $100 (newer $900 to $1200 depending on options) and Feinwerkbau 124D .177 for $75 ( $700 on up). You can also pick up Gamo, Crosman, Beeman and Daisy air rifles on clearance in Walmart from time to time. Also when you get a scope make sure it is air rifle rated !!! The recoil on these springers destroy scopes that aren't rated for their use.

I would go Air not spring.

Having to work on technique with artillary hold with a spring is a nuisance.   I regret the RWS purchase.

Also go with .22 or .20 at a minimum.

Unlike a .22 rimfire, a pellet from an air rifle will only travel a short distance — 150 yards or less, usually a lot less — that can be a huge advantage in many situations (in town for example). Yes, a suppressed .22 can be as quiet as an air rifle (at considerably higher cost) but it’s not as good of a choice in densely populated areas. Air guns have their place.

Speaking of airguns having their place, there is a dedicated airgun forum on arfcom. The OP might find some useful info there.

I bought a cheap 22 pellet rifle at some point a couple decades ago or so.  And a handgun pellet gun as well.

Both pretty much sucked.  Not really that accurate or quiet and if you get to reading the laws for a lot of suburbs bb and pellet guns are lumped in with firearms and slingshots and bows and cross bows and stuff.

I buy cb rounds for my 22lr, 22long, and 22short marlin bolt action something or other.  It is tube fed and actually marked for all 3 of those.  It will reliably feed any mix of those you put in the tube.

A cb round is mostly just primer and a touch of powder.  I used to buy cb longs but lately all I find are cb shorts.  The shorts are actually a tad louder.  The marlin has a nice long barrel on it.  Being a bolt action all the noise is coming out the end of the barrel.

I find it nice and accurate and use it instead.

I readily admit a lot of the stuff posted above works great.  I decided 2 decades ago the money spent buying a good quality pellet gun and good pellets would be better spent on cb rounds and me learning to adjust for whatever ammo I had in my marlin.

this is the one I want.  need at least four mags.  9 rds each.

Evinex PCP

Down in the Deer Hunting section I posted a clean deer kill with a .357 Evanix. The Evanix guns are Korean made.

I can give you the lowdown on the Evanix guns as survival tools. They’re well designed, but sometimes they use substandard metal for the mechanical parts that will break and require either fabrication of new parts or ordering from US distributers. On the Evanix in the deer video, I had to replace the valve stem and the cocking pin at different times, both of which ruined hunts I had planned. That’s why I rebuilt the gun’s internals out of steel and then sold it to a buddy.

If the parts were made with stronger metal, the guns would otherwise be awesome, and I can’t speak as to how more recent Evanix guns are made. I am interested in trying the Winchester version of the Evanix Rainstorm which is called the Model 70-35.

The trend in PCPs is to have side lever cocking mechanisms that turn a drum ammo magazine each time the gun is cocked. Beware that those mechanisms add mechanical complications to the gun. A simple bolt action or single shot side lever are  easier to service from a home work bench. When dealing with a drum magazine, its better to have the indexing mechanism in the magazine itself instead of the gun. If the magazine goes bad you can just use the gun as a single shot. The Evanix guns do use a drum magazine that indexes from the magazine’s mechanisms, which is a plus.