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Posted: 12/24/2020 2:43:30 PM EDT
So, I'm in the early stages of studying for my Tech license as I see the value in setting up comms for emergency purposes - no internet, no cell service.
I'm hoping to eventually connect with like-minded others in my general area (SoCal north of LA) so that we can support each other in times of need. I am sure that I'll, over time, figure-out a home shack to do what I need to do locally. What I am struggling with is what equipment I would need to provide for my son who is 200 miles away at school so that we can connect during an emergency. With no internet, I'm assuming we would need to talk over HF. He, of course, couldn't have a base station with an antenna tower outside his dorm, so what could he use? Would an HT with a handheld antenna (e.g., yagi) work? He has a Tech license. Sorry for what I am sure is a basic question...please be gentle... 
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Posted: 12/24/2020 2:52:31 PM EDT
[#1]
For 200 miles you and your son will both need General Class licenses unless you want to use CW.
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Posted: 12/24/2020 2:55:16 PM EDT
[#2]
General and HF NVIS setups could do the trick.
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Posted: 12/24/2020 3:47:11 PM EDT
[#3]
Go read this thread: https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/Civilian-Portable-Manpack-HF-radios-go-/22-698707/
For all that is holy, we should tack that thread. This is only the 87 millionth time this question has been asked. |
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Posted: 12/24/2020 3:48:06 PM EDT
[#4]
Yeah, figured an upgrade to General was in the cards.
Thanks you for the NVIS suggestion. Already found some portable home-brewed 40 meter dipole antennas that could easily be set-up on campus. Does a HT for 40 meters exist, or am I looking for a portable base unit? |
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Posted: 12/24/2020 3:48:14 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For 200 miles you and your son will both need General Class licenses unless you want to use CW. Or a Satphone or the like. We go through this scenario a few times a month. Not a bash or disregard but if you dig a little you will see the results are always the same. It can be done but it isn't something you can just plug and play outta the box and make work. For an Amateur Radio solution you'll both need General Class tickets and about $1,000 gear on each end, with a great deal of practice and synchronization. Unless you both are interested in the Hobby of Ham Radio I'd look elsewhere for a solution... I did a Ham Radio podcast for 4 years, many of the shows dealt with HF comms for different applications....insert your scenario in place of the show topic and you can hear how someone made it work. Podcast FWIW: 5 of the 7 peeps in my household are Hams...only 2 of us really care about it (my 13 y/o General Class daughter and I) Hope that helps |
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Posted: 12/24/2020 4:13:44 PM EDT
[#6]
From a dorm room? I am going to go out on a limb and say it is not feasible.
Dorms are usually concrete or brick. The antenna would have to be outside and it would have to be long.Your best reliable band would be 80M. If the internet and power are out, he would need battery power to operate the HF radio. Does he have a vehicle at school? If he does maybe he could set up HF in a car and attempt contact as he evacs. If not: Your best bet might be in a SHTF situation to hop in a vehicle and head out that way to exfil him and have a simplex VHF freq ( HT and external fixed antenna if required ) and a local repeater programmed that is known to have solar power and battery backup so you could establish comm on your way in and if that is down, have simplex comm when within a couple of miles for rendezvous at a pre-arranged location, a backup location and as tertiary using comms to communicate the location. put this info on a piece of paper, laminate it and you both keep it in your wallet. If it's bad, make sure to bring him an extra weapon and armor for the evac home. have HF in your vehicle and HF at home so you can try to communicate with family at home on your status. Or maybe I am going to far from this. |
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Posted: 12/24/2020 4:46:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Thank you scwolverine and mach.
Hmmmm...both of your posts have excellent points and much food for thought. Maybe HF is not the way to go for a rock-solid solution in this situation... |
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Posted: 12/24/2020 6:10:29 PM EDT
[#8]
HF antennas are huge and the ones that seem to be too good to be true unfortunately are.
Establishing reliable comms with a specific station at range is very challenging. You will need large antennas that can cover the whole spread of frequencies, you will need power and most importantly skilled operators on both ends. If the requirement is to make a contact with anyone its pretty easy, it's the targeting of a specific station that's the tricky. I love ham radio but this sounds more like an application for a garman in reach satellite messenger. You can get most of the way with HF but it's going to take significant equipment and a major investment in learning and practice. It will be a fun journey if you both commit to it! |
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Posted: 12/24/2020 9:29:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go read this thread: https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/Civilian-Portable-Manpack-HF-radios-go-/22-698707/ For all that is holy, we should tack that thread. This is only the 87 millionth time this question has been asked. I think we should just start a new thread specifically for 0-400 mile comms and have it stickied. And explain first thing NVIS is at best like a satellite that gives you a few minutes every 12 hours and there's no magic NVIS antenna that changes that. |
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Posted: 12/24/2020 9:32:21 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From a dorm room? I am going to go out on a limb and say it is not feasible. Dorms are usually concrete or brick. The antenna would have to be outside and it would have to be long.Your best reliable band would be 80M. If the internet and power are out, he would need battery power to operate the HF radio. Does he have a vehicle at school? If he does maybe he could set up HF in a car and attempt contact as he evacs. If not: Your best bet might be in a SHTF situation to hop in a vehicle and head out that way to exfil him and have a simplex VHF freq ( HT and external fixed antenna if required ) and a local repeater programmed that is known to have solar power and battery backup so you could establish comm on your way in and if that is down, have simplex comm when within a couple of miles for rendezvous at a pre-arranged location, a backup location and as tertiary using comms to communicate the location. put this info on a piece of paper, laminate it and you both keep it in your wallet. If it's bad, make sure to bring him an extra weapon and armor for the evac home. have HF in your vehicle and HF at home so you can try to communicate with family at home on your status. Or maybe I am going to far from this. I second this |
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Posted: 12/24/2020 11:04:25 PM EDT
[#11]
For ~200 miles, 40 Meters (7.00 - 7.30 MHz) would be your best bet. A dipole or an inverted VEE antenna would be ~65' long. The antenna could be shortened by up to 50% by using loading coils.
75 Meters could be used at night, but the antenna would be twice as long. Another option would be a mobile setup in his car/truck. The antenna won't get out as well as a dipole strung between two trees, but it is workable. A plus woudl be independence from utility power. If the terms seem confusing, use your search engine. There's plenty of info out there. |
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Posted: 12/24/2020 11:49:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Tech license gives you a slice of the 10m sb. Prob do 200 miles even on a crap day. A 10m dipole is just 16 feet of copper wire. You can set that up in minutes between 2 trees and operate by your car.
Other than that...Prob 2m with a repeater somewhere in between you two. Would be a real stretch making it that far. You would need some major height on the repeater. Think the best I've heard has been about 70 miles away but I think that was 70cm. |
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Posted: 12/25/2020 9:14:17 AM EDT
[#13]
Does the school, by chance, have a ham radio club?
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Posted: 12/25/2020 3:40:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, figured an upgrade to General was in the cards. Thanks you for the NVIS suggestion. Already found some portable home-brewed 40 meter dipole antennas that could easily be set-up on campus. Does a HT for 40 meters exist, or am I looking for a portable base unit? 40 meters probably work some or most of the time in daylight hours. You'd really need a 40/60/80 meter dipole to cover different conditions and times of day, and even at that it's not a guarantee. It can be tough with full legal power, and often tough with 100 watt radios. 5 watt QRP/"handheld"/"manpack"/"prepper portable" radios are always going to be tough at best. QRP HF is an experts game not reliable on-demand communications. California QSO party isn't until October, state QSO parties are about the best opportunity to work with short range propagation. Another suggestion would be to find someone participating in Winter Field Day next month. Consistent, reliable short range communications on HF (and yes, 200 miles is short range on HF) is, well, not consistent and reliable. You're relying on the variations of solar-driven natural phenomenon which are as predictable as the weather. There is a lot to learn about working with HF, it's not something that is just plug and play. |
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Posted: 12/25/2020 5:13:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Another thing to look into would be the repeater systems in So Cal.
There are oodles of repeaters in your AO and I would venture to say that there is a linked system that could provide comms over the area you want without having to go HF. Granted, your comms would be "in the open" and dependent on the repeater system, but most amateur repeater systems are purely (or capable of) analog traffic without internet access. Most have backup power as well. |
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Posted: 12/25/2020 5:49:26 PM EDT
[#16]
The WIN system has alot of repeaters in CA.
http://www.winsystem.org/repeaters/ |
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Posted: 12/25/2020 5:52:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another thing to look into would be the repeater systems in So Cal. There are oodles of repeaters in your AO and I would venture to say that there is a linked system that could provide comms over the area you want What OP wants to do is exactly why these kind of systems exist. |
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Posted: 12/25/2020 6:27:56 PM EDT
[#18]
I would suspect that if the situation was so dire that all other comms were down those repeaters would be toast as well.
Do they all have backup power? For how long? How are they linked? |
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Posted: 12/25/2020 9:53:05 PM EDT
[#19]
The WINsystem mention is honestly your best bet.
I seldom transmitted on it, but I gave it a listen pretty frequently for about six years. Very reliable, and I did communicate with hams as far distant as Israel. Yes, it is a web-based system, and that could be it’s weak link, but Walter Mitty-ism aside, how often have we seen wide scale web failure? In some ways, the nation might be better off if we did, but no, it’s not likely. As a back up system, your son might look to a local club and strike up aquaintance with a ham in his AO who has good HF capability. I can’t imagine many hams who wouldn’t welcome the opportunity to help a good young fellow with emergency communication needs. |
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Posted: 12/25/2020 10:38:09 PM EDT
[#20]
We have SARNET here in FL. It’s a linked repeater system that’s doesn’t use the internet at all. I think each machine is linked through microwave, but I could be wrong. I’ve talked to stations in GA and AL on it (qth is Miami). It’s very active but not for ragchew. I have a buddy whose a trucker and I talk to him around the state on it. It’s a very respected network and I’ve never heard more than a 5 min qso, give or take.
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Posted: 12/26/2020 10:14:06 AM EDT
[#21]
IDK if it's been addressed yet, but having the licenses & equipment is only part of the answer.
For this to be even moderately effective comms, will require PRACTICE! Lots of it. It's a commitment. Example: At your home you may not obtain good comms, or only 10-20% of the time. But, 5 miles away is mount Bobo and it's @2K elevation. Same thing in his dorm. You may end up with 2 good places that if your noise level is under say S-4 you can talk 70-80% of the time that are within 15 minutes of "home" Also, in the event of a widespread outage, you should have pre arranged times & frequencies you meet at. A schedule. jm.02 |
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Posted: 12/26/2020 7:04:29 PM EDT
[#22]
For a nice self contained HF unit with simple go to antenna this is what I recommend for NVIS stuff and a general all band HF rig and antenna.
Get a Xeigu G90. It's only 20 watts but has a built in tuner. $425 Get a 9:1unun from ldg electronics. $30 Get 25-50ft of coax RG8x or similar. Cut a 53ft length of wire for a random wire antenna. No need for ground wire as the coax will act as the ground side. Read this paper on random wire lengths with an unun. https://www.balundesigns.com/content/Wire%20Lengths%20for%204%20and%209-1%20ununs.pdf Get some paracord and a way to get the cord into a tree to make a sloper antenna and pull the wire up. Or if your son is in a dorm room up high, hang the wire out of the window and slope it to the ground. For power: Get a Bioenno 15-20ah LifePo4 battery and charger. Add a Powerwerx LifePo4 solar charge controller Add solar panel of choice, probably 50watt min There you go. I a nice self contained kit to get you on the air relatively quickly if needed. |
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Posted: 12/26/2020 9:05:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would suspect that if the situation was so dire that all other comms were down those repeaters would be toast as well. Do they all have backup power? For how long? How are they linked? The AZ links are all point-to-point UHF for the most part. (This is true for a lot of public safety systems as well.) Most are housed at sites with significant backup infrastructure -- mains power plus batteries plus generators with many days (to weeks) of backup power. It's a corner case but I'm fairly sure the linked systems here would be up long after cell phones were lost, and they'd probably be at the same standard as the public safety comms. There's a fair bit of cross pollenation in the southwest VHF communitity so I'd expect CA, NV, UT, AZ, and NM to be similar -- not sure about CO. I know at least a couple of the AZ systems have links that go to SoCal and UT. Here's a page with links to photos of some of the major AZ repeater sites. You can see they're generally at the same level as (and co-located with) commercial operations. |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 12:29:39 AM EDT
[#24]
A mobile HF setup doesn't have to cost a fortune. A Yaesu FT-891 is a very nice radio. It's about $200 more than the Xeigu G90 and the Xeigu has a tuner built-in. As for antennas, the Comet UHV-6 worked pretty well for me down in PR being able to talk back to the mainland. I've also used it mounted on my Jeep and rental cars and can easily get cross-country conversations going. There are "screwdriver" antennas like the Tarheel antennas that work OK although I don't personally have one.
I was attending a meeting at Ga Tech one time and had my radio gear with me. Even though I was up on the 15th floor of the hotel, I couldn't get out anyplace or even to the repeater at the University 3 blocks away. A lot of buildings use reinforced concrete and lots of metal pipe in the walls. Doesn't really work well for RF comms. |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 12:33:32 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even though I was up on the 15th floor of the hotel, I couldn't get out anyplace or even to the repeater at the University 3 blocks away. A lot of buildings use reinforced concrete and lots of metal pipe in the walls. Doesn't really work well for RF comms. It's the metalized coatings they put on the windows, turns buildings into faraday cages. |
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Posted: 12/27/2020 11:34:03 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A mobile HF setup doesn't have to cost a fortune. A Yaesu FT-891 is a very nice radio. It's about $200 more than the Xeigu G90 and the Xeigu has a tuner built-in. As for antennas, the Comet UHV-6 worked pretty well for me down in PR being able to talk back to the mainland. I've also used it mounted on my Jeep and rental cars and can easily get cross-country conversations going. There are "screwdriver" antennas like the Tarheel antennas that work OK although I don't personally have one. I was attending a meeting at Ga Tech one time and had my radio gear with me. Even though I was up on the 15th floor of the hotel, I couldn't get out anyplace or even to the repeater at the University 3 blocks away. A lot of buildings use reinforced concrete and lots of metal pipe in the walls. Doesn't really work well for RF comms. I have spent a lot of time in hotels in major cities with ham gear. After many dozens of attempts I stopped trying. Even on the 30th floor against a window, many times I could not hit a repeater. I had limited success with a mag loop against windows though with FT8 and 20 watts, but very limited. As in 3 FT8 contacts an hour. The only real success was having an outside balcony and being able to get the antenna as far away from the building wall as possible, or outside on the hotel grounds by the pool area or roof area set up with chairs. Those times I did have success on phone and FT8. But these days most major hotels in big cities raely have rooms with a balcony or even a window you can open and drop a wire outside. I eventually after about a year just gave up trying, it was not worth the effort. I even tried city parks but the homeless and degenerate problem hindered that most of the time. Traveling with an HT is one thing while walking around outside draws little attention, but trying to run HF was just too much of an effort for minimal results and always drew attention from bums. |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 12:18:53 PM EDT
[#27]
My brother and I have connected over about 250 miles via NVIS and CW on 80m
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Posted: 1/20/2021 12:52:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would suspect that if the situation was so dire that all other comms were down those repeaters would be toast as well. Do they all have backup power? For how long? How are they linked? Bingo. In my experience even if you own the repeater tower you may not get the priority on it to use the aux power supply. I work for a state wide agency, we own a vast network of towers across the state. Other agencies have antennas on our towers and repeaters. Sheriff, county fire, state police. They were understandably on the generator when we were not in a major event. We were left off due to capacity of the generator. I want to say since that massive ice storm the agency upgraded the generators but it has also happened on some of our other towers since. Not a huge ordeal though as we were also authorized to use those other agency frequencies and were working the same Incident Command System. |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 4:28:18 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bingo. In my experience even if you own the repeater tower you may not get the priority on it to use the aux power supply. I work for a state wide agency, we own a vast network of towers across the state. Other agencies have antennas on our towers and repeaters. Sheriff, county fire, state police. They were understandably on the generator when we were not in a major event. We were left off due to capacity of the generator. I want to say since that massive ice storm the agency upgraded the generators but it has also happened on some of our other towers since. Not a huge ordeal though as we were also authorized to use those other agency frequencies and were working the same Incident Command System. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would suspect that if the situation was so dire that all other comms were down those repeaters would be toast as well. Do they all have backup power? For how long? How are they linked? Bingo. In my experience even if you own the repeater tower you may not get the priority on it to use the aux power supply. I work for a state wide agency, we own a vast network of towers across the state. Other agencies have antennas on our towers and repeaters. Sheriff, county fire, state police. They were understandably on the generator when we were not in a major event. We were left off due to capacity of the generator. I want to say since that massive ice storm the agency upgraded the generators but it has also happened on some of our other towers since. Not a huge ordeal though as we were also authorized to use those other agency frequencies and were working the same Incident Command System. Amateur repeaters are generally relatively low-power systems. They would be an almost unnoticeable load on a generator. The ones I'm familiar with have regular boat type deep cycle batteries for backups which will power the repeater for several days. If a power outage would go beyond that time we have a plan to swap out the battery for a charged one and recharge the other battery offsite, then repeat the process as needed. |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 7:28:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does the school, by chance, have a ham radio club? This was my 1st thought too. There might be a whole setup already in place |
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