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Posted: 2/6/2018 12:14:50 PM EDT
Between kerosene and propane which is the most fuel efficient/cost efficient over time? any other advantages one has over the other?
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 12:53:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 12:59:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Kerosene goes for $5/gallon at the big box stores now, with no SHTF issues, so I can only imagine what people would be wiling to pay for it in an actual SHTF situation when supplies at the pump get harder to keep 'supplied'.

Just my damnedfool opinion, but I'd be more interested in something self sustaining, which at this point still means to me solar hot water walls, or solar reservoirs storing hot fluid heated by solar power.

*ETA: When I lived in Boston - we had solar hot water panels on the roof that circulated to a rather large 'antifreeze jacketed' concrete cistern in the basement that heated water in an internal heat ex-changer to feed the baseboard heaters.  It wasn't magic, or anywhere close to perfect, but it worked surprisingly well considering it was 15 years ago.*

Maybe some kind of geothermal heat pumps run off of solar/wind powered storage batteries.

Ideally - living somewhere with natural gas reserves under your property that could be tapped would be seriously life changing, because a true SHTF situation would have one not having enough hours in the day to replace everything needed to survive *long* term without resorting to soul numbing labor or some unsavory means.
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 1:28:14 PM EDT
[#3]
For me first is the sun and second wood.
I spent a winters in idaho, ohio, connecticut, illinois, and toronto.
My feet hurt thinking about it.
I built my retirement BOL where the sun shines and when it does it is warm.
I don't know if a sunroom would work in the northern wastelands but on the worst of days my place is warm.
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 4:05:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 4:12:21 PM EDT
[#5]
I did a small piece on this topic HERE.

Currently, I use kero for a SHTF stash. The tech is simple, and easy to make field expedient repairs if need be. Propane requires regulators, hoses, diaphragms, etc.

I consider propane a convenience fuel. I use it all the time.
I consider kerosene a SHTF fuel. It just works when you need it to.
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 4:39:28 PM EDT
[#6]
I use wood for primary heat, electric is secondary.  I am fortunate enough to live on enough land to supply my heat source for as long as I am capable of collecting it.
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 5:50:30 PM EDT
[#7]
For our purposes kerosene is a most perfect fuel...

This said we use all of them, propane, 'solar', gasoline -preferably with ethanol, kero, diesel, wood...
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 6:48:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Unless you have cheap kerosene prices where you live, kerosene is MUCH more expensive than propane. Due to the cost, I no longer bother to use it. It has its place for sure but for my area, propane is MUCH cheaper than kerosene. And, I can buy kerosene at the pump easily. At $4 per gallon at the pump, kerosene is too expensive.
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 6:57:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Wood
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 7:20:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Some advice, avoid the small radiant type kerosene heaters.  They work fine short term a few times but they have inherent design issue that can lead to fume smells.  They have to control that wick height very tightly to get the burn to get that radiant light to reflect.  The towers have way more wick adjustment.  Both work on a re-burner cage technology much the like the catalytic converter in your car.  When that cage gets hot, it re burns the excess fuel and converts CO to safe CO2.  It also reduces smell.  Initial fire up, I do mine outdoors.  Once its hot, I move it inside and then keep it running till its time to not, otherwise repeat.

Tj
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That's not how a catalytic converter works. A catalyst changes something without changing itself. A catalytic converter doesn't work by reburning gasses. It uses a catalyst to modify one compound into another without changing itself. CO forms when any fuel burns with lack of enough oxygen. So, ANY non vented fuel burning appliance can generate CO if there is a lack of oxygen. That's why unvented heaters recommend cracking a window to ensure there is enough oxygen and is also why some indoor heaters have an oxygen depletion sensor. It's not because you might run out of oxygen....It's because low levels of oxygen mean CO levels are increasing if you are burning a vent free heater inside.

Old drafty houses are typically safe to run unvented heaters in. Air tight houses may not be without adding makeup air.

Unvented heaters also add  a lot of moisture to the inside of a house so constant use can lead to mold issues. As backup and supplemental heat that's usually not an issue though.
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 7:55:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That's not how a catalytic converter works. A catalyst changes something without changing itself. A catalytic converter doesn't work by reburning gasses. It uses a catalyst to modify one compound into another without changing itself. CO forms when any fuel burns with lack of enough oxygen. So, ANY non vented fuel burning appliance can generate CO if there is a lack of oxygen. That's why unvented heaters recommend cracking a window to ensure there is enough oxygen and is also why some indoor heaters have an oxygen depletion sensor. It's not because you might run out of oxygen....It's because low levels of oxygen mean CO levels are increasing if you are burning a vent free heater inside.

Old drafty houses are typically safe to run unvented heaters in. Air tight houses may not be without adding makeup air.

Unvented heaters also add  a lot of moisture to the inside of a house so constant use can lead to mold issues. As backup and supplemental heat that's usually not an issue though.
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View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Some advice, avoid the small radiant type kerosene heaters.  They work fine short term a few times but they have inherent design issue that can lead to fume smells.  They have to control that wick height very tightly to get the burn to get that radiant light to reflect.  The towers have way more wick adjustment.  Both work on a re-burner cage technology much the like the catalytic converter in your car.  When that cage gets hot, it re burns the excess fuel and converts CO to safe CO2.  It also reduces smell.  Initial fire up, I do mine outdoors.  Once its hot, I move it inside and then keep it running till its time to not, otherwise repeat.

Tj
That's not how a catalytic converter works. A catalyst changes something without changing itself. A catalytic converter doesn't work by reburning gasses. It uses a catalyst to modify one compound into another without changing itself. CO forms when any fuel burns with lack of enough oxygen. So, ANY non vented fuel burning appliance can generate CO if there is a lack of oxygen. That's why unvented heaters recommend cracking a window to ensure there is enough oxygen and is also why some indoor heaters have an oxygen depletion sensor. It's not because you might run out of oxygen....It's because low levels of oxygen mean CO levels are increasing if you are burning a vent free heater inside.

Old drafty houses are typically safe to run unvented heaters in. Air tight houses may not be without adding makeup air.

Unvented heaters also add  a lot of moisture to the inside of a house so constant use can lead to mold issues. As backup and supplemental heat that's usually not an issue though.
Tj is using the terminology of the heaters, and they do call them catalytic chambers.

The cat chamber heats up and burns any vaporized un-burned fuel. This pulls more heat out of the fuel (almost all of it), and significantly reduces emissions so you don't feel like puking up supper. Heaters utilizing this method DO NOT WORK without the cat chamber intact, and are usually glass. So be forewarned about that.

I will differ in that I have ran Kero Sun heaters of the radiant variety and have no issues and recommend them in the conditions where they shine, but they do need their maintenance, as do all kero heaters/cookers. Radiant kero heaters are better if you are trying to get some heat in an area far too big for that heater to warm through convection, as the radiant heater heats objects (as in your person) first, although radiant heaters also heat through convection simultaneously. So while your back may be cold, your face will be hot. Just keep rotating, like roasting on a spit
Link Posted: 2/6/2018 11:43:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Tj is using the terminology of the heaters, and they do call them catalytic chambers.

The cat chamber heats up and burns any vaporized un-burned fuel. This pulls more heat out of the fuel (almost all of it), and significantly reduces emissions so you don't feel like puking up supper. Heaters utilizing this method DO NOT WORK without the cat chamber intact, and are usually glass. So be forewarned about that.

I will differ in that I have ran Kero Sun heaters of the radiant variety and have no issues and recommend them in the conditions where they shine, but they do need their maintenance, as do all kero heaters/cookers. Radiant kero heaters are better if you are trying to get some heat in an area far too big for that heater to warm through convection, as the radiant heater heats objects (as in your person) first, although radiant heaters also heat through convection simultaneously. So while your back may be cold, your face will be hot. Just keep rotating, like roasting on a spit
View Quote
Burning fuel completely is one thing.  The more completely a fuel burns the less odors you typically have.  Lack of oxygen combined with any burning fuel causes the carbon monoxide levels to rise.  If there was a true catalytic converter on heaters, it would convert CO to CO2.  Heating up burning gases doesn't make CO change into CO2.  CO can be converted to CO2 with a catalyst....which typical heaters do not have.  I have seen some small propane heaters that actually do have a catalyst but they are not common in normal space heaters.  I also bought one of these a long time ago and tried it.  It didn't seem to make any difference on my kerosene tower heater but I also didn't have scientific test instruments to be able to test if there was any reduction of CO or not.

The issue is lack of oxygen no matter what type of heater you're using.  Lack of oxygen means CO levels are rising.
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