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Posted: 3/14/2021 2:59:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Plug in a load. A light or fan or small heater.
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Posted: 3/14/2021 3:03:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Plug in a load. A light or fan or small heater. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 3:15:33 PM EDT
[#3]
I should have mentioned that I did plug in a garage fridge. I also took readings with eco-mode on and off. None of it made any difference. It still gave all sorts of wonky frequency readings. I'm sure the readings can't be correct. I was curious as to why the DMM might be fooled when a regular generator reads correctly with it. I haven't replaced the Torch spark plug with an NGK yet. I don't know if that can possibly have anything at all to do with it.
I was expecting the DMM to easily read a steady 60 Hz and was very surprised to see the crazy readings from the inverter. Nothing I did seemed to make any difference. Maybe a larger load would stabilize the readings? I even ran an extension cord away from the generator to see if that would make it more stable. It didn't. Same readings. Anyone else see this kind of strange with inverters and trying to get a Hz reading on them? |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 7:18:52 PM EDT
[#4]
My fluke 789 reads nuts on 60.0 on a champion 2500 watt inverter.
I know it’s a different meter and different gen but that’s all the data I have |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 7:24:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My fluke 789 reads nuts on 60.0 on a champion 2500 watt inverter. I know it’s a different meter and different gen but that’s all the data I have I'm not sure what's going on. Can my inverter be making dirty power, so much so that it's causing my DMM to trip out? I'm really confused by the readings. The entire purpose of getting the inverter is for the clean power. Google hasn't really been much help. No other stories of inverters giving off strange Hz readings that I could find. Once thing that I found interesting, there had been oil in the engine. The oil dipstick had oil on it, it wasn't dry. I still had to put oil in it, though. Is that a sign that I might have received a refurb? |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 8:11:14 PM EDT
[#6]
I recently purchased an inverter generator. One strange thing I discovered about small ChiCom inverter generators - Some of them come unbonded (neutral and ground unconnected at the frame) and, more importantly, they produce voltage on the neutral side.
Try this test: Connect your multimeter between the neutral and ground. When I did this on mine it read 60v. It also reads 60v between hot and ground. Across hot and neutral it reads 120v. When I bonded the neutral and ground it no longer did that. After that there wasn't voltage between neutral and ground. Saw a couple Youtube videos that find the exact same thing. I wonder if that has something to do with it producing weird frequency readings too? Just a thought and easy to test. |
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Posted: 3/14/2021 8:21:54 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not sure what's going on. Can my inverter be making dirty power, so much so that it's causing my DMM to trip out? I'm really confused by the readings. The entire purpose of getting the inverter is for the clean power. Google hasn't really been much help. No other stories of inverters giving off strange Hz readings that I could find. Once thing that I found interesting, there had been oil in the engine. The oil dipstick had oil on it, it wasn't dry. I still had to put oil in it, though. Is that a sign that I might have received a refurb? They test run the engines for a few seconds and adjust the carb, etc. then pull the oil back out. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 6:39:38 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They test run the engines for a few seconds and adjust the carb, etc. then pull the oil back out. That's kinda of what I thought, but I wasn't sure. The generator, otherwise, seems new. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 6:43:42 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I recently purchased an inverter generator. One strange thing I discovered about small ChiCom inverter generators - Some of them come unbonded (neutral and ground unconnected at the frame) and, more importantly, they produce voltage on the neutral side. Try this test: Connect your multimeter between the neutral and ground. When I did this on mine it read 60v. It also reads 60v between hot and ground. Across hot and neutral it reads 120v. When I bonded the neutral and ground it no longer did that. After that there wasn't voltage between neutral and ground. Saw a couple Youtube videos that find the exact same thing. I wonder if that has something to do with it producing weird frequency readings too? Just a thought and easy to test. I took readings in that configuration as well, hot and ground. Oddly, either probe (without the other) gave the strange Hz readings no matter which side was tried. I don't know if there's something on the inverter that's not wired correctly or if the controller board is defective. Or if there's some strange issue with my DMM that could be throwing the readings off. I was hoping someone on here had seen something like that before and knew what might be causing it since I know a lot of the folks here use inverters. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 5:53:17 PM EDT
[#10]
It could be that the inverter is not that clean and your meter is picking up the carrier freq of the inverter.
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Posted: 3/15/2021 6:00:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Do you have a Kil-A-Watt device? Maybe throw that on there to see if the reading is more consistent. Are you taking the reading at the genny, or at the end of an extension cord? Extension cord might take you away from any extraneous interference?
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Posted: 3/15/2021 7:46:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have a Kil-A-Watt device? Maybe throw that on there to see if the reading is more consistent. Are you taking the reading at the genny, or at the end of an extension cord? Extension cord might take you away from any extraneous interference? I tried to measure at the end of an extension cord but the readings were no different. I don't have a Kil a Watt, but to be honest, I believe the power is at or around 60 Hz. That's not my real concern. For my DMMs to not be able to get a good reading tells me the power output is noisy. That's what's really bothering me about the readings. An inverter is not supposed to be that noisy and I'm not sure what's going on with this one. I don't know enough about inverters to be able to diagnose what I need to do to fix it. I called Wen customer support but they were useless. Their mission is to get the engines running. Up to Tier 2 didn't seem to understand what I was telling them about noise in the signal. If the power is dirty, then the inverter has no advantages over a regular gas generator. When I got home from work, I hooked up a Shop Vac and tried another TRMS DMM I have. It, too, was unable to get a reading on the Hz output with both the Shop Vac on and off. Something is way off with the signal coming out of the outlets. Unless all inverters do this? |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 8:08:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Did the shop vac sound normal?
Normal amount of suction? Etc? |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 8:16:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did the shop vac sound normal? Normal amount of suction? Etc? Indeed it did. There was nothing unusual about it. If I hadn't checked the outlets with a DMM, I would have no idea the signal was all over the place when trying to measure Hz. This is my first inverter, so I don't know if they all give wonky readings when trying to measure Hz or if there's something weird going on with mine in particular. The motor runs fine, the LED indicators work fine, and it powers items fine. I just can't find an explanation for why the Hz measurements are so out of whack. I plan to use this inverter for LED TVs, DVD players, charging cell phones, stuff like that when the next hurricane that hits us takes out power for a week. If the power is dirty, it has no advantage over regular genset power. This is really puzzling me. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 9:08:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Ya, it sure is. Do you have a friend with a scope? Maybe take it to a TV/electronic repair type shop and ask if they would throw it on their scope. Ham radio guys? Broadcast facilities? Even those hole-in-the-wall electronic surplus parts places should have one they can turn on for you.
There are cheaper scope interfaces that hook onto your PC... PicoScope 2204A-D2 10MHz 2-Ch Oscilloscope This is only if you are as stubborn as me, and can't stand not knowing.  Besides, it's a great excuse to buy yourself a new tool. 
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Posted: 3/15/2021 9:18:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Id love to hear your thoughts overall on the generator......you have peaked my interest, is there anyway to parallel it?
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Posted: 3/15/2021 9:28:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Id love to hear your thoughts overall on the generator......you have peaked my interest, is there anyway to parallel it? Yes, it has the connectors to parallel with another inverter. What attracted me to it is the power, 4k surge watts and 3.5k running watts. It's open frame so it's not whisper quiet, but that was not a requirement for me. The generator came very well packaged. Started right up. Runs smooth. Eco mode is cool. I can see really using that feature for long power outages. And you can get it directly from Wen for just under $400. It seems like a great deal. THD is supposed to be less then 3%, at least that's what they say. I'm just not sure what's going on when I try to measure Hz. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 9:38:38 PM EDT
[#18]
You really need to put a scope on it and see what the waveform looks like.
It is probably not sinusoidal. Whether that is a problem or not depends on your intended use. For most things it's not going to be a problem. |
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Posted: 3/15/2021 9:43:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Your DMM is probably picking up the switching frequency used by the voltage boost circutry to go from the DC generator voltage (15vdc?) to a voltage it can then apply as a sine wave (170vdc) to the AC output. The output of the DC-DC boost circuitry sounds like its not well filtered. It probably won't hurt anything. I'd imagine on a scope you'd see the 60hz sine wave with little 1-9khz ripples in it.
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Posted: 3/15/2021 9:47:48 PM EDT
[#20]
Im really trying to decide how quiet I need it to be.....400 dollars for 3000 watts seems like a good deal....I could get two
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Posted: 3/16/2021 6:40:20 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your DMM is probably picking up the switching frequency used by the voltage boost circutry to go from the DC generator voltage (15vdc?) to a voltage it can then apply as a sine wave (170vdc) to the AC output. The output of the DC-DC boost circuitry sounds like its not well filtered. It probably won't hurt anything. I'd imagine on a scope you'd see the 60hz sine wave with little 1-9khz ripples in it. Is it still considered "clean" power under these conditions? I really don't know that much about inverters so I was expecting the DMM to be able to read Hz without trouble. I do have a Furman power conditioner that I am planning to use with the inverter, although I'm not sure what effect that is going to have on the signal. Presumably, it will clean it up even more? I just want to make sure the inverter is safe to use with the electronics in the house. |
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Posted: 3/16/2021 1:09:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it still considered "clean" power under these conditions? I really don't know that much about inverters so I was expecting the DMM to be able to read Hz without trouble. I do have a Furman power conditioner that I am planning to use with the inverter, although I'm not sure what effect that is going to have on the signal. Presumably, it will clean it up even more? I just want to make sure the inverter is safe to use with the electronics in the house. In all likelihood its fine. I think "clean" AC power is over rated. Most electronics use switching power supplies and the first thing that happens is the incoming AC waveform is rectified to its DC component and run through a DC-DC buck converter. |
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Posted: 3/16/2021 2:34:18 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is it still considered "clean" power under these conditions? I really don't know that much about inverters so I was expecting the DMM to be able to read Hz without trouble. I do have a Furman power conditioner that I am planning to use with the inverter, although I'm not sure what effect that is going to have on the signal. Presumably, it will clean it up even more? I just want to make sure the inverter is safe to use with the electronics in the house. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Your DMM is probably picking up the switching frequency used by the voltage boost circutry to go from the DC generator voltage (15vdc?) to a voltage it can then apply as a sine wave (170vdc) to the AC output. The output of the DC-DC boost circuitry sounds like its not well filtered. It probably won't hurt anything. I'd imagine on a scope you'd see the 60hz sine wave with little 1-9khz ripples in it. Is it still considered "clean" power under these conditions? I really don't know that much about inverters so I was expecting the DMM to be able to read Hz without trouble. I do have a Furman power conditioner that I am planning to use with the inverter, although I'm not sure what effect that is going to have on the signal. Presumably, it will clean it up even more? I just want to make sure the inverter is safe to use with the electronics in the house. Your DMM should not be picking up the switching freq. Neither of mine do, they read 60hz. I stated this thread a while back to give people an idea of what the power output of various sources looks like. I ran the scope FFT function and swept for harmonics. Nothing of significance showed up, meaning you should not be picking up 9khz with a DMM. |
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Posted: 3/16/2021 7:23:03 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your DMM should not be picking up the switching freq. Neither of mine do, they read 60hz. I stated this thread a while back to give people an idea of what the power output of various sources looks like. I ran the scope FFT function and swept for harmonics. Nothing of significance showed up, meaning you should not be picking up 9khz with a DMM. It jumps around quite a bit, but seems to settle around 3-4 KHz. I agree, it's really weird it's doing that. I haven't had much time to do in-depth testing, but nothing I've tried to far has given me a reading anywhere close to 60 Hz. This weekend, I plan to change the spark plug to an NGK. I don't know if that will make a difference, but it can't hurt. Maybe it needs to be broken in more? Does noise above 1 KHz adversely affect electronics? This entire thing has me stumped. |
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Posted: 3/16/2021 10:42:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It jumps around quite a bit, but seems to settle around 3-4 KHz. I agree, it's really weird it's doing that. I haven't had much time to do in-depth testing, but nothing I've tried to far has given me a reading anywhere close to 60 Hz. This weekend, I plan to change the spark plug to an NGK. I don't know if that will make a difference, but it can't hurt. Maybe it needs to be broken in more? Does noise above 1 KHz adversely affect electronics? This entire thing has me stumped. Depends on amplitude. Also depends on distance to the device. Long cable run dampen noise to a degree. It really needs a 'scope throw on the output to determine what's going on. Or return it. Even a HF Predator 3500 inverter gen makes really clean power. |
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Posted: 3/16/2021 11:12:22 PM EDT
[#26]
If you have an old motor-driven electric clock (wall clock, alarm clock, etc.), you might try plugging that in to see if it keeps proper time.
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Posted: 3/17/2021 6:31:01 AM EDT
[#27]
I'm planning in running any electronics behind a line conditioner, so I'm hoping that may clear up a lot of the noise on the line. Like I said, I suspect the signal is 60 hz or thereabouts. The problem is that noise on the line is preventing the DMMs from getting reading it. I was not expecting that from an inverter. There's almost nothing on the web about a problem like that, so I don't know if people don't test for such things or if I have a bum unit.
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Posted: 3/17/2021 10:48:31 AM EDT
[#28]
Find. A. Scope.
Look. At. The. Output. Then, you will know. |
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Posted: 3/21/2021 7:54:28 PM EDT
[#29]
I finally got a chance yesterday to play around with the inverter. I replaced the Torch spark plug with an NGK and tested some line conditioners to see if they would have an effect.
I tried the Furman first. It was a definite improvement. It showed 60 Hz, but was still a bit jumpy. Much closer to an accurate reading than I could get from the outlet. I tried the Tripp Lite Isobar next. Stable 59.99 Hz reading. That seems to be the silver bullet. I was expecting better performance from the Furman unit, though. I'm not sure why it didn't clean up the signal a little better than it did. Also, just for Schlitz and giggles, I tried one of my nicer surge suppressor power strips. It didn't seem to clean up anything, but I wasn't really expecting it to. It's just a nice power strip. |
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Posted: 3/21/2021 8:20:21 PM EDT
[#30]
If the generator is malfunctioning then using a line conditioner to “clean it up” is probably asking for trouble. As others have said, find a scope and verify.
Just saying. |
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Posted: 3/21/2021 8:48:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the generator is malfunctioning then using a line conditioner to “clean it up” is probably asking for trouble. As others have said, find a scope and verify. Just saying. You really should do this while its still in warranty. Usually get a replacement within 30 days for most stuff. I don't know why you are ignoring everyone's suggestion. |
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Posted: 3/22/2021 6:26:53 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really should do this while its still in warranty. Usually get a replacement within 30 days for most stuff. I don't know why you are ignoring everyone's suggestion. I'm not ignoring anyone's suggestions. A good scope is an expensive, highly specialized piece of equipment that I would use exactly once. Trying to find someone with a scope has been a challenge. |
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Posted: 3/22/2021 5:41:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Your meter implies that the generator has issues. Without the means to prove your meter wrong then I would err on the side of caution and return the generator as defective. Otherwise what is the point of having the meter?
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Posted: 3/23/2021 7:41:28 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your meter implies that the generator has issues. Without the means to prove your meter wrong then I would err on the side of caution and return the generator as defective. Otherwise what is the point of having the meter? I've thought about that. The problem is how to convince Wen that my inverter is actually defective (if it is). I've already talked to Tier 2 support which I could tell is outsourced. I could not get them to understand what I was telling them. The engine runs fine and the inverter put out 124.5 VAC solid. And it's putting out 60 Hz, right on the money. I don't think they are going to see that as defective. Sure, I'm getting wonky readings with my DMM, but it will be easy for them to blame the meter. I don't know that it's not actually a meter issue. I'm going to see if I can track down a scope. I have a two year warranty, so I have time to figure it out. |
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Posted: 3/23/2021 5:01:35 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've thought about that. The problem is how to convince Wen that my inverter is actually defective (if it is). I've already talked to Tier 2 support which I could tell is outsourced. I could not get them to understand what I was telling them. The engine runs fine and the inverter put out 124.5 VAC solid. And it's putting out 60 Hz, right on the money. I don't think they are going to see that as defective. Sure, I'm getting wonky readings with my DMM, but it will be easy for them to blame the meter. I don't know that it's not actually a meter issue. I'm going to see if I can track down a scope. I have a two year warranty, so I have time to figure it out. If you have no confidence in it take it back to wherever you got it and say it doesn’t work. Get another one. But I won’t be surprised if the new one does the same thing.... |
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Posted: 3/23/2021 5:11:11 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 3/23/2021 8:15:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem is how to convince Wen that my inverter is actually defective (if it is). If this generator is advertised as producing “clean power” then here is what I would tell them. “The specs for the genset say that it is rated for 60Hz. It is not producing anything close to 60Hz. It is out of spec. Either fix it. Or replace it. Failure to do so in a timely manner will result in me refusing the charge with my credit card company. I will not plug any of my electric devices (except my multimeter) into this generator because it is dangerous.” I strongly expect that using the word “dangerous” will get their attention. I have also found that technical support people will cut their scripts short when they hear “sparks” or “fire”. In both cases there were sparks and fire involved so exaggeration wasn’t necessary in either case. Frequency isn’t hard to measure. If your meter typically shows sensible readings then I would legitimately be concerned about the wild readings that you are seeing here. I am really struggling to remember the term that we used to use when a generator burned out one of the diodes in the diode-trio which was a critical component of the rectifier. It basically introduced a lot of jitter in the voltage levels. I can see something like this making it nearly impossible to measure frequency accurately. Let us know how it works out. |
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Posted: 4/8/2021 12:16:54 AM EDT
[#38]
You get what you pay for. Being a cheap generator, they cut corners in the inverter design and manufacturing. Did it say that it was a pure sine-wave inverter? Most likely it's not. Probably, it's got ripple and other garbage in the output. Try using a SW radio near it. I bet it puts out a lot of RF noise too.
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Posted: 4/8/2021 9:27:18 AM EDT
[#39]
What does the DMM indicate at a wall outlet (line power)?
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Posted: 4/12/2021 7:37:01 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What does the DMM indicate at a wall outlet (line power)? It reads normal, 121 volts at 60 Hz stable. I'm in the process of deciding on a scope. I don't need anything high end since I don't really have use for a scope and won't use it often, but all of the selections seem either really cheap or really expensive. I really want to see the waveforms for my gensets. |
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