So looking for ideas for my next pistol/carbine. I'm kind of torn between two calibers mostly but willing to hear what you all have to say.

So I want to buy another "pistol" one with an arm brace so far I like these arm braces so I wanted to get another one soon. So caliber trouble two I'm looking at are 9mm and 7.62x39.

Why 9mm it is because brass is still cheap I cast boolits for it and easy to shot. 7.62x39 mostly due to ammo price it's still the cheapest ammo out there and it's a rifle round, not a pistol. That brings up this for people who have AK pistols how is the recoil?

I have shot 223, 300blk, and 12 ga from a pistol brace. The 12 ga I'm working on hacks to reduce felt recoil.

I want something easy to use! The top priority is reliability! Also easy access to ammo and magazines! That they both have!  

Like to hear what you all have to say!


Edit: Not looking for barrel less then 6 inches. I want to get the best terminal ballistics from the 9mm.

Im rather liking my Ruger PC Charger with brace.

I like the Kel Tec Sub 2000 in 9 mm. When it comes to pistol calibers there are only two you can find tons of brass for 9 mm and .40 cal. If you reload you can get this brass cheaper than others. I've picked up thousands of  9 mm brass from public ranges for free over the years.

Glock 17/34 with a flux brace and dot.  Cheap mags, soft shooting, snd with a dot it’s easy to make hits to 100.

Plus you won’t find anything that stores more easily Attached File
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I'll follow Steve with an example of the other chassis option for Glock... my G17.3  with Vortex Venom and RMR2 in a Recover Tactical brace (fixed sights as backup)... forward magazine well and light... footprint is much smaller than any AR based 9 that requires a buffer tube, and if you have the donor pistol, a very economical alternative... mine shoots 2" groups at 50m... can be shot one handed and fits easily in a lightweight gym bag

I'm another one who likes the Ruger PC Charger with a brace.  I would recommend getting one now while you can.  I love mine.

I'm on this bandwagon also.  The PC Charger has a 6.5 inch barrel which gives you just a little more length to help with accuracy and maybe a little more speed to the projectile.  Fold the brace, pop the barreled section off and you can store the PC Charger in a common lunch box sized cooler, a Camelback style water backpack or many other small packs.  Add to it the ability to take common Glock style 9mm mags and you have a pretty good gun that can serve a variety of roles for you.

For me I will be looking for something in 10mm since I have a 10mm handgun.

I have been looking at the Scorpion a lot more! Magazines cheap it seems like a weapon that a lot of people like and reliable also.

I like the little longer barrel on it to get more terminal ballistics from the 9mm round.






I do like the 10 mm also but cost of ammo don't own a handgun in it if bought a AR-45 I'd most likely get a 10MM barrel for it also also a 460 Rowland.

Is there a defined purpose?  

I have some confessed love for these “braced pistols” in various calibers.  The rifle calibers (5.56, 7.62x39, 300BO, etc.) are different than the pistol-caliber braced pistols; and it’s not just about terminal ballistics.

I think those interested in these types of “pistols” understand the limitations and that they aren’t necessarily meant to replace a CCW pistol or a rifle, but to augment them.  While some of the AR/AK pistols can still perform well, they’ll fall a little short for terminal performance beyond certain ranges.  It’s not an accuracy concern (my son was hitting a steel plate with a Mk18-sized pistol at 450 meters), but there are valid concerns about terminal performance at those extended ranges.  These are niche additions to one’s arsenal and good for mobile operations, lightening the load if the focus is more on manual labor with an increased threat but where a rifle is just too cumbersome to have on-body (and distances are a stretch for a handgun). They aren’t for everyone and I would never say they’re essential.  I will say that my experiences show that novice shooters (particularly women) really improve their shooting with these types of pistols within 50 yards; I think they make a lot of sense as a HD weapon for a female that isn’t too gun savvy or plans to spend a ton of time training.  

If anything, they’re fun!  

You kind of have three categories from my perspective:

1. The real compact, standard pistols with braces, more civilian “machine pistol” than PDW.

2. The more conventional braced “pistols” based off SMG designs or AR platforms.

3. Your pseudo SBR, rifle-caliber braced pistols.

The most compact are going to be your purpose-designed chassis like the B&T TP9 or USW, and now we have some aftermarket adaptations from FLUX designs and simpler chassis like the brace from Recover Tactical.  The larger RONI STAB chassis is still pretty compact, but a tad bulkier.  These are generally lighter and what I would categorize as the civilian version of machine pistols.  The brace offers a couple more points of contact for more accurate fire at distances and better control or rapid fire.  Most are best used with an MRDS.  I see these as effective ranges from 25-75 meters for effectiveness.

The majority of the more traditional SMG platform pistols with braces are heavier, a little larger, often with more design-specific controls, and often a good platform for a suppressor.  These are just plain fun and the category that I’ve found most women love shooting as they’re generally a little lighter than rifle-caliber pistols, less noise, often outfitted with optics, a little more compact and smaller, and the extra points of contact and larger controls make them really easy to manage.
While I know 9mm isn’t going to be a great performer out past 100 meters, I see most of my braced-pistols in this category as viable tools to bridge my self-defense CCW carry out to about 150 meters.  Good for closer confines (suppressor helps), solid platforms for optic and light, and larger/easier to manipulate controls.

Last category and the one that you’re inquired about (AK) are the rifle-caliber pistols.  These are more like pseudo SBRs and I’ve stretched mine out to 200 meters for what I consider my combat-effective range.  My DD4V7 pistol is my travel gun, and my AK pistol is my get home gun for when I work (different bags for different purposes).  I really think the AK platform excels in these shorter packages and while not as niche as 300BO, they’re still solid performers.  These are the heaviest of “braced pistols”, and their biggest downside is the concussive muzzle blasts.  Even with good hearing protection, they’re pretty rough in confined areas.  

It really depends on what you like.  I will say my recent acquisition of a PSA AK-V 9mm has really put a smile on my face.  It’s pretty darn accurate, smooth operation (for an AK), and a good size for a slightly larger platform.  

While not as compact as the FLUX, I actually like the less-expensive Recover Tactical brace a little more.  It’s pretty simple, easy to install and just a solid design.  

For the price, utility, decent terminal performance, and reliability, I think the AK pistol is a great option.  Not quite as versatile as 300BO nor as prevalent as 5.56, but a good in-between and hard thumper.  If I was wanting to prioritize suppression, go 300BO; for just a dependable shooter and good truck “pistol”, an AK-pistol is a solid choice.  













ROCK6

@ROCK6 good write up and I share your view on all of that. I have a FLUX 17 glock with a dot and use it the way you're thinking, it's not replacing my carry gun but augmenting it. Since it's so small, it can go with me places and trips where say a folding AR wouldn't or couldn't. The braced glock fits in the small part of my EDC backpack, and comes bedside for the evening if we travel (camping/rv/motels/cabins). It's nice to have something with a dot, light, reload, and extended mags handy and I'm fine with 9mm in my case.

I have a sig 365xl with a dot that's a great carry gun, but the braced pistol adds a lot without much of a size penalty

Yes there are a few purposes for this weapon. One is cheap and plentiful ammo. Next would be the same but with magazines.

I don't want a standard pistol barrel with a brace. The 9mm sucks sorry used it in combat and don't believe the hype of the FBI why also said it sucked before they became PC to use also cheaper.( Want to know more send IM!)

So a 6+ inch barrel is what I want like something compact. I'm looking at 9mm because it's cheap everyone has 9mm but SHTF having a 9mm carbine better then a 9mm pistol. Much rather have the 300 blk or 223!

Yet feel not having a 9mm I would be leaving  a lot of ammo behind that can be found and that is in stock these days. Same can be said about 7.62x39.

I have nothing in both of these calibers. I have nothing against the 7.62x39 mind you! 9mm I do and don't believe that updated powder,lead and design will make the 9mm better!

My simple question is this why do these make the 9mm better but does nothing for the 380, 38spl,357mag, 40S&W, 357 SIG, 45 GAP, 45 ACP or any other calibers?

You contradict yourself some there. First 9mm sucks but now you’d like it in a longer barrel?  Not sure. You can always add a longer barrel if that’s something you’re into.

The reason a lot of us do 9mm is because we already stock/load/carry 9mm and many with something with the same mags.

I agree that 300bo is better than 9mm ballistically. But I can’t fit one in my glove box.

There are 45 or other options for the flux. You can get a flux heavy and that works for fat frame, so you can do 10mm, 45, 357sig, etc.
many of us agree that all pistol calibers are shitty compared to a a rifle so may as well go with the one that gives the most ammo

All pistol calibers suck outside of 44 magnum; they are all a compromise.  We all have our experiences and opinions, I'm fine with 9mm, but I also don't subscribe to the one-shot-stop theories for handguns or pistol calibers.  Again, such compact, braced pistols just gives me more accuracy at longer distances and reduced split times.  They are a compromise, and while they don't replace a rifle, they aren't meant to, they augment your cow and just bridge that gap between rifle and ccw.  

Wife and I are in Jacksonville this weekend, this is just a ccw+ package I can travel with.  It's not a go-to-war package, just a little mental comfort knowing I can easily reach out to 100 meters accurately and consistently.  I can stretch to 150 meters, but it's not optimum for many reasons outside of suppressive fire.  This is a compact pack with 160 rounds for MPX-K, about 80 for G19, and a few spares for ccw.  I usually travel with the AR pistol, but using the wife's car for the trip I decided to down size.







BTW, they do make brace kits for the Glock .45 and 10mm pistols if you feel more comfortable or want to match you ccw...

ROCK6

9MM does suck! From a pistol standpoint! It becomes much better when shot from a longer barreled weapon. Let me break it down I want an SBR without having to pay a $200 SBR tax!

Why I want 9mm is cheapest ammo and magazines only thing cheaper 7.62x39. Yet more recoil and less likely to be found in my area and since most PD's changed back to 9mm ( We can talk about that in an IM as it's not PC.) Yet it's for the reason I want it. Low recoil ammo is abundant and a lot of people have it.

It's a great caliber for someone who is going to take a roll like a medic! The military did this with medics during the war gave them pistol caliber carbine. I know a lot of people slam on the 30.cal M1 carbine but it at 110 gr bullet from M1 rifle can reach 2,100+ FPS just 200 FPS less than a 357 mag from a rifle at the same weight.

This weapon is going to I hope be used as a fun gun and a home defense gun for everyone in the family from age 15+. What I hope it does not have to be used for is a compact 9mm for SHTF for my medic or as I call her my wife.

She has her own AR pistol in 223. She does not like how loud it is with the weight of the AR and ammo she said it's too heavy for her to carry her gear and have a combat load. So a lighter weapon and ammo I feel would be better for her.

I'd love to get her an M1 that has a 9" or so barrel may be less where it has the best ballistic properties. Small compact but has the punch of a 357 mag yet able to use a magazine. Also does not cost $1,500+!

if your wife has never shot an AR9, you might want to do it first... a straight blow back model with have more recoil, though not nearly the same amount of muzzle blast... I used to shoot an AR9 for USPSA PCC, and broke both a bolt hold open and firing pin, something I never did in 20 years of 3 gun and action rifle competition with a 5.56

I don’t have anything to add that hasn’t already been said but I can post pics of braced pistols that I like. 17L and 34 in Recover Tactical brace.

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Why? You have pistol ballistics! Compact is not the key thing you fight with a pistol to get to a rifle/carbine!

Brace does nothing to make the round or bullet better! 9mm sucks! It always has and will! FBI made up new technology that ONLY works for the 9mm???

Not saying that the 9mm will not kill it does and does very well from a longer barreled weapon then a pistol!

Compact is not as important as getting the most out of the round! I wish 30 carbine was more common! It has 200 FPS less then a 357 mag In a rifle with both having a 110 gr bullet. No one would say that the 357 mag was not a killer.

I'm wanting a SBR without the $200 tax stamp!


Edited: I really dislike Glock and will only buy a Glock 21 because it's the only Hi-cap 45 acp and have 10+ mags for! I'd buy a SIG or Springfield over a Block any day!

You're too fixated on 0.07" for a pistol caliber, but that's fine; the focus needs to be on the concept.  While even the most compact braces like FLUX or Recover Tactical aren't meant to replace your CCW/AIWB, they offer a lot more versatility than just being a pistol caliber out of a pistol.  Take your typical CCW drills and push them out to about 50-75 meters and you'll see the immediate difference with the same handgun with with a brace (and preferably an optic).  If 9mm is going to get your panties in a wad, they do have Recover Tactical for the larger .45/10mm Glock frames:

Recover Tactical

Again, it's not so much the caliber, but the concept and the advantage it offers over just your CCW, yet vastly more compact than more traditional PDW or rifle-caliber platforms.  Unfortunately, the most compact of braces (Flux and Recover Tactical) are the only two I know of that offer designs for the large frame Glocks.  That you don't like Glock is a preference issue and while not 10mm or .45, there are options for Sig P320.

ROCK6

Tayous,    I also learned to distrust the 9mm because of things that I saw.   But over the last few years I noticed that although no one was disagreeing with me, there was new information that needed to be included in my analysis.   The technology in handguns and bullets have improved and evolved.    The evolution has made the 9mm suck less and it narrowed the gap in capability between the 9mm Luger and other service pistol rounds.   It narrowed the gap enough that the additional number of bullets in the same space, the weight savings, and reduced recoil are now tipping the scales in favor of the 9mm for some applications.  

Now, you are asking for people’s help.   Then when people are offering their experiences you are finding fault with their choices?   Their choices served their purposes, not yours.   A wise man would listen to everything that everyone has to say and then would make their decision that best served their application.  

If you are wanting to find something for your wife then how about taking her to a gun store or a range that offers rentals and see what she likes?   If she has a hand in the decision then it would be more likely that she will take ownership of it and work better for her long term.  

I will also add that you said that you already use 9mm?   Is there something that you currently use and have magazines for that would also work in PCC?   Example:  if you have a Beretta 92F then you might consider a CX4 or Sub2000 that takes Beretta 92 magazines.  

And since you are focusing on 9mm, you may want to check out the “Pistol Caliber Carbine” section on this forum.   There are a lot of 9mm carbines over there.

Just my $0.02 but it is probably worth a lot less than that.

9mm is a fine caliber for self defense in both pistols and short barrel carbines. Anyone who thinks different needs to educate themselves because they are lacking in knowledge.

My opinion is based on first hand experience over the past few years.

What is your preferred choice of self-defense ammunition and the barrel length that you are using?  

I carry my personal pistols with Federal HST 124gr.  My employer issues Winchester Ranger T series 147gr. We used to carry Speer Gold Dot 124gr.  Both the Ranger and the Gold Dots have worked quite well on everyone we have shot with it. No complaints.  I shoot a lot of injured deer with Federal HST and it puts them down instantly but to be fair, every bullet goes through their brain so pretty much everything would work for that.  I wouldn't hesitate to carry any of the above loads for self defense.  

Pistols are Glock 19 and Glock 43.

Are you going to be ok?

Tayous is a good guy but he doesn't communicate very well when he gets excited.    Some things rile him up more than others.   We worked together on a solar project a couple of years ago and he did well with it.  

Any one know where one could pick up a flux right now?

What sort of velocity and bullet performance are you expecting to get from 6"+ barrels.

Id be concerned about bullets not penetrating enough.

My wifes sub2k is a fun gun. Not sure if its rugged enough beyond a fun gun

yup I agree. I carried a 300BO on a 3k mile road trip through the american west. It fucking sucked. I didn't need to shoot anybody, so really I was carrying a 10 pound backpack all over for no reason. I already have young kids so the amount of accessory gear I need it a pain in the dick. I would 100% build and take and use a Flux glock 9mm in my bag over a 300, despite the ballistic advantage.

Like to know first where are we talking about 0.07? All respect to you so if I sound mad or anything negative it's not at all!!!!

What I'm talking about is how I don't want a braced pistol. I'm not worried about CCW. Especially with a weapon that the intended owner has stated many times that she does not like the way the Glock feels in her hands! Why I keep saying NO Glock!

Next, I don't want a short barrel. I want a barrel that will give the 9mm better ballistics. A 22LR is an NAA wheel gun that will kill a person also!

Having used the 9mm in combat and since most of us stocked up on FMJ for SHTF and not fancy bullets like JHP we need to look at the effectiveness of the FMJ round, not fancy JHP that maybe at best you will have a few magazines worth? People need to look at what they will be able to get their hands on not what they have! That's going to be 99% of the time FMJ not JHP!

This weapon is going to be used mostly as a fun weapon but on SHTF it would be used as my medics weapon! She has a 10" 223 AR pistol and does not like it too loud for her so looking for something else for her to carry.

Sucks because we have not or I have not heard a word when we talk about firearms that are "Pistols" yet they are part carbine and not a SBR! We say they pistol yet when we talk pistol everyone thinks Glock 17. When I say brace they also think Glock 17 with brace. Yet there are braced pistols with barrels longer then 4 inches. So what do we call them?

I was just being sarcastic regarding caliber/diameter and just giving you some shit over your you distaste of 9mm in handguns:

.45" - .380" (9mm) = 0.07"
.40" - .380" (9mm) = 0.02"

There's more to it than caliber (bullet weight, composition, construction, velocity, etc.), but my point is that just about all pistol calibers shot out of shorter barrels (less than 5") are still pretty anemic...not that I would want to volunteer my body as a testing medium

I get your frustration.  You want a compact PDW(?) in 9mm or 7.62x39mm, has a longer barrel than standard pistols (over 5"?), and you want to avoid Glock. I think most rifle-caliber pistols make the shooter suffer excess concussive blasts under 10.5" barrels (without suppression), but 300BO is still a solid option yet has its own drawbacks.  Another option with the handgun platforms is just purchase a longer barrel; again, Glock likely has the most availability.



Long barrel pistols with braces

The most prevalent choices are 9mm and of those, most are designed for Glocks...and they're on the cheaper side.

Check the PCC forum in the Armory.  Many of the braced pistols build on SMG designs have longer barrels (like CZ, HK/Clones, Stribog; my AK-V has a 10.5" barrel length). They have the traditional size (most with 7.5-10" barrels), and their shorter "K" models that have the pistol barrels you want to avoid.

I would love to have a "braced" M1 Enforcer pistol in 30 carbine though...that would a handy little thumper even with the 9.5" barrel.  Also, another plus for such compact, braced pistols in 9mm, is that their designs allow for rapid, accurate, and fast-follow up shooting.  Since 9mm is still a pistol caliber, I've never been comfortable with the one-shot-stop debates; I simply prefer to put as many bullets accurately on target as fast as I can until the "target" is no longer a threat.  Braced pistols help with the longer range, rapid, accurate part and more than what most can do with just a handgun.

The Ruger PC Pistol can be made into a braced-pistol and had a 6.5" barrel...for 9mm, that can provide additional velocity...

Have you considered the Kel-Tech SUB2000 (9mm or .40S&W?). Compact when folded, light, and still pretty easy to shoot (not your traditional compact PDW).

Most of the rifle-caliber pistols are going to be larger and heavier.  Many of the pistol caliber pistols based on SMG-designs or AR/AK frames are still going to be larger and heavier...which isn't a bad thing as most blow-back operations are going to recoil as much as 5.56, so the weight and size help with recoil.

There are plenty of options if you don't mind the prices.  I kind of second TimJ's affection for the AK-V.  Mine is growing on me and really enjoy shooting it.  Not sure I can say it's traditional "AK" reliable (although I've had zero issues), but it's a small frame AK in 9mm with a 10.5" barrel...

ROCK6

That 17L has a 6" barrel as you specified...

The new bufferless/piston style PCC from Foxtrot Mike look promising.

I built my own Glock Based PCC but would also consider an MP5/Scorpion/Colt mag style also.  

If you are planning to use FMJ in a SHTF situation, you’re planning wrong.

If you are planning on going through hundreds and hundreds of rounds of good JHP rounds when SHTF then you are planning wrong.  If you really think you will be using gobs of ammo in self defense when the SHTF, you need to get out of where you are NOW because that place is too dangerous.....especially for a family. Surviving SHTF means AVOIDING gunfights not looking for them.

Terminal ballistics with the 9mm do not get much better, if at all, with longer barrels if you are using FMJ. You just get more penetration. A straight on torso shot with a long barrel 9mm with FMJ is just going to punch a single 9mm size hole through and through.  That same torso shot from a carbine length 9mm loaded with a good JHP bullet is going to create devastating terminal ballistics and probably not exit (depending on load and bullet weight).

If you are really just buying a fun gun, then just buy whatever you want and have fun with it. Nothing wrong with that. Realistically, we justify a lot of fun purchases by saying it’s prepping....but really we just want a certain toy to play with.

change your wife's AR Pistol to 300BO!!!!
then add a can!!!!
then run mostly subsonics for plinking!!!!
keep supers for better ballistics and emercencies!!!
still keep it short with a ~7" barrel!!!
quiet when you want but hits like a rifle when you need it!!!!

do you find all my !!! are helpful???

Your posts sound better when read with a Russian accent.



Just because she's not used to ever holding Perfection in her hands doesn't mean she can't come to like it and/or get used to it.

They used to make 10" barrels for Glock's, not sure if they still do.

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Ironic that that Army just purchased a bunch of fun guns with the B&T APC9K.  I think people lose their perception of these types of firearms and they try to compare squeezing a rifle caliber in smaller platform is better.  There's a purpose for these PDW-sized 9mm pistols and they've been used well over 100 years...

ROCK6

The man speaks the truth.

Running gun battles make great books but kind of sucks in real world. If your family is there, you want to engage as little as possible and get away. Better to just avoid as much and as long as possible.

I want a MP5 clone- just to have as a smaller truck gun than my 5.56 pistol. It is not a running battle gun- it’s a get out of a BLM type roadblock gun

How many "What gun should I buy?"  threads have you started?  Do you ever buy the actual guns you ask for info on?  You seem to ask the question, argue the responses, then the threads just flame out.

OOOFF

LOL

I've got more rounds through my CMMG 22 upper than any other gun.  .22LR is available and affordable and perfect for training.