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Posted: 11/7/2018 2:02:55 PM EDT
After having my uber fancy duel boiler radiant heat system fail last night at -10*F I'd like to have a couple indoor safe heaters put away in case it happens again. The garage has a wood stove and the living space (~3700 sf) is above the garage.
Would a couple propane or kerosene type heaters be best? What would be the safest? Don't want to die from CO poisoning!! |
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What type of wood stove and do you have a way to circulate air from the garage? I’d go to the wood stove first, I think if you got it cranking you’d be surprised how well it could maintain a properly insulated home at those temps. My BIL heats his 2,700 sqft home almost exclusively with a wood stove.
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What type of wood stove and do you have a way to circulate air from the garage? I’d go to the wood stove first, I think if you got it cranking you’d be surprised how well it could maintain a properly insulated home at those temps. My BIL heats his 2,700 sqft home almost exclusively with a wood stove. View Quote |
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I have two of these type Kerosene heaters and they work very well. I keep a 2.5 gallon pot of water on top as the humidity helps feel warm. I also burn 1 gallon of E85 to 4 gallons of diesel as a cheap kerosene substitute.
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I have two of these type Kerosene heaters and they work very well. I keep a 2.5 gallon pot of water on top as the humidity helps feel warm. I also burn 1 gallon of E85 to 4 gallons of diesel as a cheap kerosene substitute. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/139525/83509E10-A458-4316-8F0C-A2678C248E19_png-731317.JPG View Quote They are supposed to be indoor safe, but I've heard many complaints about the fumes giving folks bad headaches or making them sick. I end up cracking the garage door or leaving the man door open. Really haven't used mine much. |
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I have two of these type Kerosene heaters and they work very well. I keep a 2.5 gallon pot of water on top as the humidity helps feel warm. I also burn 1 gallon of E85 to 4 gallons of diesel as a cheap kerosene substitute. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/139525/83509E10-A458-4316-8F0C-A2678C248E19_png-731317.JPG View Quote ETA: my old place was about 1200 square ft. One unit heated about 700 of kitchen, living room, and bedroom without a problem, though my house was well insulated. |
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can you tap into your heating system and use a wood fired boiler as a backup?
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I have one of those I think I bought from Lowes for my small garage. It seems to take a bit to get up to temp, but then it'll run you out. They are supposed to be indoor safe, but I've heard many complaints about the fumes giving folks bad headaches or making them sick. I end up cracking the garage door or leaving the man door open. Really haven't used mine much. View Quote You definitely have to be careful carrying one that's lit so the mechanism doesn't shutdown. I've gotten petty good at it. Plus I only have to move it about 15 ft. Make sure you use good quality kero. Clear is the best but I've not had issues with dyed. |
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Why not use a 2nd boiler in parallel?
Edit: What exactly is you "uber fancy duel boiler radiant heat system" composed of? |
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The wood stove in the garage doesn't really have a clear pathway for the heat to flow upstairs other than radiating through the floor View Quote cut a 8" hole in a closet upstairs to down stairs ceiling. But grates over both ends when I need to move heat in the winter, used a 10" inline fan over the grate to pull the heat. Worked amazingly well. I posted about in in the AK forum but it was -20 outside and I had my house up to 8 degrees in Jan |
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Why not use a 2nd boiler in parallel? Edit: What exactly is you "uber fancy duel boiler radiant heat system" composed of? View Quote Both boilers are programmed to run together for peak efficiency. One will get so warm, shut off, and the other one takes over type of thing. #2 went down because of air in the fuel lines from its recent service and #1 the control panel head went bad. $500 later I'm back in business |
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Go here: http://www.milesstair.com/ to read up on everything you ever wanted to know about Kero/Oil lanterns, and Kero Heaters/stoves.
He has 'recommended" lists for most everything. This guy has forgotten more about the subject than most will ever know. |
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A couple big buddy heaters are cheap and safe heat sources for short term problems.
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Surprised nobody has mentioned regular 1500 watt electric heaters. They don't smell, are easy to move and put out decent heat. I have a few of those and then a Big Buddy propane heater in case I lose electricity at the same time.
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I have had the gas furnace go out at least a half dozen to ten times since I have lived here (usually it's a bad/broken igniter). Once was while I had the flu and it was well below freezing outside. As long as I still have power (have every time), I'm good. Here's what I have done.
Would things get too bad, I would probably disconnect the dryer vent (electric dryer) from the ceiling in the basement and route it toward the door of the laundry room, make sure it's very clean (maybe blow it into a pillow case for a few minutes to capture any lint that would want to fill the house), and turn on the dryer with nothing in it and blow the hot air into the house. That would be a very last resort as I don't like the idea of blowing the dryer into the house, especially with it being near the furnace (don't want it blowing highly inflammable lint into the gas furnace). I wouldn't do this if I had a gas dryer, but with electric, I *think* that I would be okay? Maybe somebody else on here with more expertise in this area could chime in and tell me if I'm a genius or moron. |
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I have two of these type Kerosene heaters and they work very well. I keep a 2.5 gallon pot of water on top as the humidity helps feel warm. I also burn 1 gallon of E85 to 4 gallons of diesel as a cheap kerosene substitute. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/139525/83509E10-A458-4316-8F0C-A2678C248E19_png-731317.JPG View Quote The alarms never went off. If possible, stick it in a central room in the house, right under a ceiling fan- reverse the direction of the fan. It easily brought our uninsulated 1500 sq ft house back to "livable" temps. They are pretty frugal on Kerosene as well. Another option is to have a propane tank dropped and get a big wall mounted propane heater. Propane heater |
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A couple big buddy heaters are cheap and safe heat sources for short term problems. View Quote Could always get a big unvented radiant propane wall heater, plumb it in, let it sit until needed. Building a new house now, we have propane furnace for main, generator for if power out, electric heat for if furnace fails (independent room heaters) big buddy heaters after that (with remote tank kits that run to tanks outside), and KERO heaters and enough fuel to run one all winter stored for true emergencies. My family shouldn't freeze to death. |
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Kerosene heaters
Know when, where, why to use lower btu radiant or higher btu convection Milesstair.com for education and source quality wicks Buy/store bulk kerosene as possible Might as well hit up WT kirkman for some (new) decent kero lanterns If you light them up in the garage/patio and let them come up to temp before moving inside the smell is very minimal. Added humidity with the kero heaters is a good idea (small pot of water on top of heater). |
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Kerosene heaters Know when, where, why to use lower btu radiant or higher btu convection Milesstair.com for education and source quality wicks Buy/store bulk kerosene as possible Might as well hit up WT kirkman for some (new) decent kero lanterns If you light them up in the garage/patio and let them come up to temp before moving inside the smell is very minimal. Added humidity with the kero heaters is a good idea (small pot of water on top of heater). View Quote Attached File |
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What would be the safest? Don't want to die from CO poisoning!! View Quote Combine that with a functional CO alarm, and you're pretty safe. One of my relatives heats most of their house with a single wall-mounted unvented propane heater - Since it's unvented, all of that heat stays indoors, which greatly improves efficiency. It doesn't require any electricity - which is handy during a power failure. |
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You're trying to keep all 3700 sq ft warm?
Depending on the insulation that's a shit ton of BTU. In an urgency I just heat and cool the smallest room in my home - about 140 sq ft - because it's in the center of the downstairs and has only a small window but is surrounded on three other sides by the home. A tiny tent catalyst heater makes the room toasty warm and a 750 watt AC keeps it cool running off of one of those Honda generators. |
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I have used the Big Buddy heater to heat the living room on extremely cold days. My experience is that with optional electric fan, the Big Buddy heaters, set on max goes through a pair of 1# propane bottles in about 6-8 hours.
The heater is a radiant type, and while it works very well for intended purpose, is not the ideal choice for heating large volumes/square footage. For that purpose, I suggest Kero-fueled convection heaters. As linked above, milesstair has all the answers. He is to heaters and lamps/lanterns as Arfcom is to ARs. I have reliable CO detectors mounted near the places where I run such heaters. Sure, you can run the Big Buddy off a 20# propane tank, but doing so, according to accepted safety protocol, means leaving the tank outdoors, and having long enough hose, with proper filter, to do so. Some do without filter, and perhaps have 20# propane tank indoors; Both of these practices are specifically warned-against by mfr of Big Buddy. Your call, and best of luck to you. I have a few, filled, 20# tanks, a very long hose, and Big Buddy Filter unit available if need be. I also have a few dozen new 1# propane bottles, and a couple dozen re-filled 1# propane bottles. Mostly, if things go bad enough for long enough, I will rely on the Kero heaters I have, supplemented by Big Buddy. To heat my house via Kero heaters for whole heating season would require a great deal more Kero than I have room to store. |
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The issue with the Buddy heaters and external tanks is that a leaking propane tank inside a house has enough propane to level it IF it leaks. It's a little risky (though VERY low risk IMO) and if you are there to monitor it, the slight risk is worth it vs the much higher risk of freezing. I wouldn't hesitate to bring a Buddy heater and a 20 lb tank inside.
The issue that causes the need for a filter is the hose. For some reason the hose can leach some oil out and it MUST be filtered out. There is a hose that doesn't leach oil out for the Buddy heaters and so doesn't need a filter. It's green as far as I remember. |
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The issue with the Buddy heaters and external tanks is that a leaking propane tank inside a house has enough propane to level it IF it leaks. It's a little risky (though VERY low risk IMO) and if you are there to monitor it, the slight risk is worth it vs the much higher risk of freezing. I wouldn't hesitate to bring a Buddy heater and a 20 lb tank inside. The issue that causes the need for a filter is the hose. For some reason the hose can leach some oil out and it MUST be filtered out. There is a hose that doesn't leach oil out for the Buddy heaters and so doesn't need a filter. It's green as far as I remember. View Quote |
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It's still a black hose, just low pressure so no oil leeching. Unless they changed the just color recently. View Quote It's green. I think all the black hoses need the filter. Not sure if any company makes a black hose that doesn't need a filter. |
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https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Heater-Buddy-Hose-Assembly/dp/B001CFWF5U It's green. I think all the black hoses need the filter. Not sure if any company makes a black hose that doesn't need a filter. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It's still a black hose, just low pressure so no oil leeching. Unless they changed the just color recently. It's green. I think all the black hoses need the filter. Not sure if any company makes a black hose that doesn't need a filter. 1: If left running in a closed up space, it will auto-shutoff due to an onboard oxygen sensor. If this occurs, disconnect all lines and left them vent (I was using a 20 lb tank with hose and filter). I didn't my first time encountering this issue, and I would get a weak pilot flame that would go out after 30 seconds. After disconnecting all connections and letting them vent, it started working again. 2: The small 1 lb propane canisters will freeze up before you get full usage out of them when its cold out. 3: The $34 Mr Buddy hose linked above is a more expensive option compared to checking out your local big box store of choice's BBQ grill section. I found a 6 foot hose (black colored hose) for $8, and bought the MrBuddy LP filter for $9. 4: If you weren't aware, farm stores and the like; along with propane delivery companies will fill your tank and give you the full 20 lbs for around $10-ish(depends on the price of propane of course). And you get to keep your tank, that you know the history of. These places will check the certification date on the tank, and refuse to fill if expired. 5: If your tank is past its cert date, a propane supplier will usually recertify them for free, making it good for another 5 years. Rust around the valve is the biggest rejection reason. 6: When you use the propane exchanges at gas stations and the like, they are usually repainted and sometimes have expired certification dates. Make sure you check the date if you choose to use those swap places, and verify that the valve handle actually turns. If you weren't aware, you only get 15 lbs of LP with these exchanges: A friend moved out of state and gave me for free 3 LP tanks with stamped on cert dates from the late 1990s. Trip to the FS depot, and I have 3 full tanks with 2018 cert dates for $33. |
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You're trying to keep all 3700 sq ft warm? Depending on the insulation that's a shit ton of BTU. In an urgency I just heat and cool the smallest room in my home - about 140 sq ft - because it's in the center of the downstairs and has only a small window but is surrounded on three other sides by the home. A tiny tent catalyst heater makes the room toasty warm and a 750 watt AC keeps it cool running off of one of those Honda generators. View Quote |
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https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Heater-Buddy-Hose-Assembly/dp/B001CFWF5U It's green. I think all the black hoses need the filter. Not sure if any company makes a black hose that doesn't need a filter. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It's still a black hose, just low pressure so no oil leeching. Unless they changed the just color recently. It's green. I think all the black hoses need the filter. Not sure if any company makes a black hose that doesn't need a filter. |
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Mr heater does/did. They are low pressure, plug into a low pressure port on the big buddy. They are big buddy specific. View Quote So, it appears that you would need the green hose without a filter (or black hose with a filter) if you have a regular buddy. If you have the Big Buddy, you could use the low pressure hose with regulator on the tank with quick disconnect to the heater and not need the filter. |
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Added benefit of the low pressure hose: if you setup your big buddy in the house, run the house a a tank outside, should you have a leak it's much smaller.
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How would one fix a big buddy heater (or two) if they were not working correctly due to being used without filters?
If anyone were dumb enough to do that, that is. |
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I had to look that up. If you use that hose you have to have the regulator attached to the tank valve. Supposedly it has to do with high pressure in the hose leaching contaminants out of the hose but it's not an issue with low pressure. So, it appears that you would need the green hose without a filter (or black hose with a filter) if you have a regular buddy. If you have the Big Buddy, you could use the low pressure hose with regulator on the tank with quick disconnect to the heater and not need the filter. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Mr heater does/did. They are low pressure, plug into a low pressure port on the big buddy. They are big buddy specific. So, it appears that you would need the green hose without a filter (or black hose with a filter) if you have a regular buddy. If you have the Big Buddy, you could use the low pressure hose with regulator on the tank with quick disconnect to the heater and not need the filter. I've been running it in a greenhouse every spring and fall for 4 (5?) years without a hiccup. Great heaters btw. One of these and at least a couple of 1 lb. bottles should be tucked away somewhere in every household in America. |
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How would one fix a big buddy heater (or two) if they were not working correctly due to being used without filters? If anyone were dumb enough to do that, that is. View Quote I have a Mr Heater-brand 10' hose with attached regulator and QD fitting for my Big Buddy heater. Regulator threads onto tank, QD fitting of hose onto QD fitting on heater, inside left-side fuel bottle compartment. This rig leaves hose under low-pressure, so does not require filter, as per manufacturer. Maybe regulator installed at tank/lo pressure hose is the key. Maybe somehow green mfr hose is different. Again unknown. The other way to hook up: Filter screws onto 1" bottle connection on the heater, then hose screws onto filter, then hose onto tank. The filter must be used at least with hoses feeding directly from tank without a regulator, which leaves the hose under high pressure, which, in turn, is said to cause oil leaching from the hose. I don't know if installing a regulator onto tank first, then attaching hose to regulator, then attaching hose to heater gets one off the hook as far as not needing a filter. Some say oil leaching from hoses left in a high-pressure (unregulated) state are the cause of problems. Maybe installing the regulator at the tank solves that problem, maybe not. I have come to believe that people using a simple hose, no regulator, and no filter are the ones who run the most risk of having issues. It sounds to me as though the filter is cheap insurance when using anything but a mfr-approved connection rig. Mfr video shows filter being used with unregulated hose, FWIW. Link showing videos of mfr-approved set-ups and operation as well as maintenance: [http://www.mrheater.com/big-buddy-portable-heater.html[/url] Note that even with mfr hose, use without regulator requires a filter. In any event, test it using all connection configurations before you need it. If you need wrench(es) for connection, pick up exactly what you need for cheap at local flea market, and stow them together with the items that need connecting. No searching for them, that way. The accessory power unit for the switched fan already inside the Big Buddy is a nice thing to have. Moves/projects the heat much better with than without, from my experiments. Instead of a pure radiant heater, the fan adds a little room-filling convection action. If no power, 4 (four) D-Cell batts will run the fan for unknown time period. NEVER, EVER store any batteries inside batt compartment. Have necessary batts on-hand, and install when you need them. Remove prior to storage. Remove without fail, or you risk damage to the unit due to old/discharged batts. |
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How would one fix a big buddy heater (or two) if they were not working correctly due to being used without filters? If anyone were dumb enough to do that, that is. View Quote If it wasn't a close-to-new unit, I would personally just replace it and call it lesson learned. |
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OH, forgot to mention:
DO NOT EVER run a radiant panel heater on less than "high". If it is a model that you can turn off a panel, that is fine, but never "turn down" a panel (even if the settings are there for it) when used in an indoor place. I have set off plenty of CO detectors doing this. They don't burn hot enough to burn 99.7% clean. ETA: Same thing goes for kero heaters with a catalytic system: all out or nothing. |
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When I took in my old 20# bottles to be certified, it was about the same price to just give them my old tank go and buy new tanks. The only local place that did the certification charged XX for that and then you had to buy their gas to fill it and that was some of the most expensive around. It seems like the 20# tanks were around $20+ new. I had a friend give me an old large tank (about 3X the size of a 20#) that was in great shape and it was well worth having the certification done.
Our cabin heater and RV trailer heater are both vented. Do you guys using the nonvented units have issues with moisture? |
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When I took in my old 20# bottles to be certified, it was about the same price to just give them my old tank go and buy new tanks. The only local place that did the certification charged XX for that and then you had to buy their gas to fill it and that was some of the most expensive around. It seems like the 20# tanks were around $20+ new. I had a friend give me an old large tank (about 3X the size of a 20#) that was in great shape and it was well worth having the certification done. Our cabin heater and RV trailer heater are both vented. Do you guys using the nonvented units have issues with moisture? View Quote |
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When I took in my old 20# bottles to be certified, it was about the same price to just give them my old tank go and buy new tanks. The only local place that did the certification charged XX for that and then you had to buy their gas to fill it and that was some of the most expensive around. It seems like the 20# tanks were around $20+ new. I had a friend give me an old large tank (about 3X the size of a 20#) that was in great shape and it was well worth having the certification done. Our cabin heater and RV trailer heater are both vented. Do you guys using the nonvented units have issues with moisture? View Quote |
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I don't consider the moisture to be a disadvantage.
Unlike your average forced-air furnace, it keeps humidity levels high enough to prevent nosebleeds, sinus problems, cracked lips, dry mouth, etc. |
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When I took in my old 20# bottles to be certified, it was about the same price to just give them my old tank go and buy new tanks. The only local place that did the certification charged XX for that and then you had to buy their gas to fill it and that was some of the most expensive around. It seems like the 20# tanks were around $20+ new. I had a friend give me an old large tank (about 3X the size of a 20#) that was in great shape and it was well worth having the certification done. Our cabin heater and RV trailer heater are both vented. Do you guys using the nonvented units have issues with moisture? View Quote Is your guy charging more than $20-$30 to recertify them? And as a reminder, Jan 23rd, 2017 DOT reduced initial stamp certifications from 12 years down to 10. Visual re-certification is 5 years. A proof pressure test (which I think LeonardC is getting charged for) was increased from 7 to 10 years. https://www.lpgasmagazine.com/dot-cylinder-requalification-rule-to-impact-propane-marketers/ |
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OH, forgot to mention: DO NOT EVER run a radiant panel heater on less than "high". If it is a model that you can turn off a panel, that is fine, but never "turn down" a panel (even if the settings are there for it) when used in an indoor place. I have set off plenty of CO detectors doing this. They don't burn hot enough to burn 99.7% clean. ETA: Same thing goes for kero heaters with a catalytic system: all out or nothing. View Quote CO happens due to incomplete combustion. Even on low you should still have complete combustion. What I have seen first hand with unvented heaters is, not not use any cleaners or smell good sprays near it or even in the room when it's running. They will burn onto the heater and cause bad odors until they burn off. |
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Might be wise to search around for a "friendly" propane person. I go through a number of 1" bottles (which I re-fill), so I have a number of 20# tanks to fill. Eventually I found a reasonable vendor, who had no problems with re-certifying GTG tanks, and providing bulk propane at a reasonable price. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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When I took in my old 20# bottles to be certified, it was about the same price to just give them my old tank go and buy new tanks. The only local place that did the certification charged XX for that and then you had to buy their gas to fill it and that was some of the most expensive around. It seems like the 20# tanks were around $20+ new. I had a friend give me an old large tank (about 3X the size of a 20#) that was in great shape and it was well worth having the certification done. Our cabin heater and RV trailer heater are both vented. Do you guys using the nonvented units have issues with moisture? I bought a wet let propane fill kit to fill bottles from my 500 gallon home tank. Makes it much cheaper to fill them myself. I fill my 20lb and 100 lb bottles. I also go one step further and use a HVAC vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on the bottle before filling it. It makes the fill process quicker and easier with less wasted propane. |
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When I took in my old 20# bottles to be certified, it was about the same price to just give them my old tank go and buy new tanks. The only local place that did the certification charged XX for that and then you had to buy their gas to fill it and that was some of the most expensive around. It seems like the 20# tanks were around $20+ new. I had a friend give me an old large tank (about 3X the size of a 20#) that was in great shape and it was well worth having the certification done. Our cabin heater and RV trailer heater are both vented. Do you guys using the nonvented units have issues with moisture? View Quote That said, I still think they make great short term backup heat sources since you get heat without requiring power to do so. I heated my shop with various vent free heaters for years. I now have a Mr Heater Big Maxx heater (vented) in both the house garage as well as the shop and I absolutely love them. I could run them easily off a generator as well. That said, they are my primary heat source, not really what I would consider as a backup. |
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You will always have excess moisture with unvented heaters of all types. Burning fuel results in moisture. That's why I hate unvented heaters for primary heat. View Quote People actually install humidifiers to accomplish the same thing an unvented heater accomplishes - for free. That's one reason why I love them, and strongly prefer them for primary heat. |
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Quoted: Adding moisture to dry winter air is an advantage. People actually install humidifiers to accomplish the same thing an unvented heater accomplishes - for free. That's one reason why I love them, and strongly prefer them for primary heat. View Quote No one who knows anything about indoor air quality recommends unvented heaters as primary heat. Back up...sure they work well for that. Excess moisture is preferable to dying of hypothermia. |
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