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[#1]
Thanks for the thread @Rat_Patrol
This is only my third winter in MN but my first as a homeowner. This thread got me off my butt to get a kero heater and thinking about a plan for a generator. |
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[#2]
Quoted: All my relatives in L48 are all old hands at no power. They know how to drain pipes and have back up heat. One thing to add is have a honey bucket or two. Most younger ones do not even have enough blankets or sleeping bags to keep warm. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Ok, I made that statistic up, but I bet it is pretty close, especially for city dwellers. One thing I can't understand, and this can serve as a reminder for folks, is how people in cold climates like MN don't have even the most basic heat backups. But natural gas you say? Your central furnace doesn't run without electricity. Your heat pumps don't run, most forms of NG or propane heating systems used in homes still also need electricity to operate. It never fails: every winter, one of the towns near us loses power on cold nights. On the bookface, the wife tells me how all the sheep are freaking out that their houses are almost at freezing out froze out. They are cold, pipes froze, all is lost. Having even a small generator to keep your HVAC going doesn't take much money (did you really need the iPhone 12?) to setup. Non electric zone heating from say a wood stove or propane only fireplace is great, but it doesn't keep your pipes and water appliances from freezing up. Have a backup, have a plan. Having a way to even quickly winterize your plumbing is a great idea if you just can't heat it. One thing to add is have a honey bucket or two. Most younger ones do not even have enough blankets or sleeping bags to keep warm. My kids decided to add to the collection in my jeep. There's 4 sleeping bags, two comforters and a wool blanket. With the nearly fold flat seats you can make a halfway decent bed. |
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[#3]
Quoted: My plan is to live in AZ. I can heat my house with a birthday candle. View Quote Id rather live up here then have all that creepy crawly shit you have. Then again I guess it really doesn't matter. 7 or so months later I'm still dealing with this. Attached File |
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[#4]
I live in NE Ohio. Mind you it does not get as cold as MN but it still gets pretty cold. 2 years ago my gas furnace took a shit in the middle of January. Took about a week to get it replaced. I happened to have a kero heater for this exact situation. I put it in the basement to at least keep my pipes warm. The heat made its way all the way to my 2nd floor bedroom in no time. Talk about a cozy night sleep and not one of my 4 CO detectors went off. |
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[#5]
One of the disadvantages to using a generator to run your furnace is that it doesn't replace a failure-prone link in the chain - It adds another one.
Now, in order for your backup heat plan to work, you have to not only rely on your furnace working, but also your generator - and generators are not terribly reliable devices. Better to have an entirely independent backup heat source - one that doesn't rely on a generator to operate. |
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[#6]
Quoted: One of the disadvantages to using a generator to run your furnace is that it doesn't replace a failure-prone link in the chain - It adds another one. Now, in order for your backup heat plan to work, you have to not only rely on your furnace working, but also your generator - and generators are not terribly reliable devices. Better to have an entirely independent backup heat source - one that doesn't rely on a generator to operate. View Quote Actually, generators are extremely reliable and if they are running on propane, even more reliable. But, I also have a wood stove just in case. |
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[#7]
I can run my oil heat or my backup pellet stove off any of my 3 generators, 800w HF special, Honda eu2000i with 6 gal extended run tank or my 6000w propane generator. If that doesn't work I have a kero heater and 10 gal of kero. Plus a Big Buddy heater. We ran out of oil once before we had all these backups in place. It was 10 degrees outside and 40 degrees inside by the time they restarted the furnace.
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[#8]
Quoted: One of the disadvantages to using a generator to run your furnace is that it doesn't replace a failure-prone link in the chain - It adds another one. View Quote I'm not discrediting your point about having backup heat but how do you come to the conclusion that using a generator is another point of failure? For that to be true then the electrical grid would not be subject to failure. In which case we wouldn't be having this conversation. A generator is backup plan for a system that is subject to failure. The fact that the generator is also subject to failure means it is a 1-for-1 trade. Additionally, reliability of generators is a product of generator quality and preventative maintenance regimen. And 2 is 1, one is none. I have 2 high end diesel gensets large enough to run my geothermal heating system plus enough fuel on-hand to keep me powered for 30 days. As a redundant backup I have a cheap gasoline genset plus enough fuel for another 30 days. For no kidding, gotta keep warm, I also have catalytic LP heaters that run on 20 lb tanks with enough tanks to last 2 weeks. Lastly, I have a wood heat system that is not yet installed. It's taken a backseat to more urgent projects... |
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[#9]
LOL my family in north MN didn’t have anything beside wood stoves for heat until the 50s. One of my distant finlander cousins sent me one. “But I live in Texas, man...”
“You need it in case heat goes out...” It’s been sitting in my garage ever since. |
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[#10]
I live in a city of 300K adjacent to the Mojave Desert.
On the coldest nights in normally hits the lower 40s. We'll get three or four of those "bitter" cold nights. About once every five to ten years we'll get a hard freeze warning and I have to cover the tropical and sub-tropical plants. I have a propane Big Little Buddy, a Coleman white gas heater, about half a cord of wood for the fireplace, and hell I'll just fire up the RV if I had to keep warm. I was born in Minnesota but grew up near Hammond Indiana (30 miles from downtown Chicago). Every summer there are people who die in their homes due to the heat. The cities open up cooling shelters. In the winter it's the opposite tragedy with people freezing to death. Most of the time it's old poor people. It's been years but IIRC a heat wave about 25-years ago killed six to eight hundred folks. |
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[#11]
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[#12]
Quoted: On the coldest nights in normally hits the lower 40s. We'll get three or four of those "bitter" cold nights. View Quote Bitter cold in the lower 40's? That must be nice. It was 7 deg F yesterday morning and I didn't bother putting on a coat before going to work. It has to go below zero for me to need a coat. But for the record, I do keep a couple of coats in the car so that if I need one I have it. 2Hut8 |
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[#13]
To answer your thread title, apparently so will 97% of Texans.
That’s not said tongue in cheek, but rather the reality of what we’re seeing happening there now. Once we move and get settled in Montana later this year, I’ll be upping my “alternative heat” redundancies by quite a bit even though we’re moving to a “more mild” climate. Hopefully the home we purchase will have at least one wood stove, if not two. |
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[#15]
Quoted: LOL my family in north MN didn’t have anything beside wood stoves for heat until the 50s. One of my distant finlander cousins sent me one. “But I live in Texas, man...” “You need it in case heat goes out...” It’s been sitting in my garage ever since. View Quote Did you get it out this week? |
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[#16]
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[#18]
Quoted: Quoted: LOL my family in north MN didn’t have anything beside wood stoves for heat until the 50s. One of my distant finlander cousins sent me one. “But I live in Texas, man...” “You need it in case heat goes out...” It’s been sitting in my garage ever since. Did you get it out this week? Didn’t have to. Burned pretty much everything in my woodpile in the fireplace, though. |
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[#19]
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[#20]
Attached File
I have plenty of wood and this thing will heat the house to the point of opening windows down to 20deg Anything in the teens and it’s very comfortable. Water shutoffs in multiple locations if needed. I don’t think we are going to have to many issues but seeing how the Texas freeze happened I’m ready. I have a transfer switch with a 50 amp portable setup. If I’m prepared in update SC I don’t see how anyone north of me could take power for granted. |
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[#21]
Quoted: Nothing against the good folks of Minnesota but,,,, 1) Don't live where the weather can kill you. 2) Natty gas whole house genset 3) Back up gas generator 4) Fire place with enough firewood for two seasons. 5) Kerosene heaters on standby. 6) Well,,you get the message. View Quote this post has a certain amount of irony as i read it now.,, but after living in mn for all my life, i realize it would be foolish to have no back up plan to heat your home. i have a 10k generator and a 2 k generator for small loads, they will keep everything i need including my well, septic pumps and furnace, freezer and refer running for as long as i have fuel. i also have 2-100 lb tanks of propane and a buddy heater if i for some reason ran out of fuel. im confident i could go 30 days and keep the house at 60 degrees or better even during the worst mother nature has to offer. the longest ive been without power is 6 days after a tornado took out a substation and downed lines, being summer i had to manage loads but could run my ac and was the only one on the block making ice and drinking margaritas. |
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[#22]
Wood stove.
Two generators. Out house a couple minute walk from my front door. I can cut and split extra wood any time, and haul it with an atv or snowmobile. I keep a years worth in the shed. We can do without the grid or resupply for a couple weeks easy. |
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[#23]
Some of my relatives here in San Antonio used a couple mini-split heat pumps when temperatures dropped into the mid-teens several weeks ago.
They worked great, until the local electric utility started having rolling blackouts. Eventually, there was no "rolling" - it was just a constant blackout, lasting for several days. Some time ago, I had replaced one of their old forced-air wall-mounted propane furnaces with a 18,000 BTU unvented unit that doesn't require any electricity to operate. Until the power came back on, it was their sole heat source - and they were very glad to have it. Another of my relatives and myself both used unvented natural gas fireplace logs (approx. 30,000 BTUs) to keep our houses warm after the power went out. Thankfully, the natural gas supply in this area never failed - otherwise, we would have had to fire up the Buddy propane heaters. Almost all of the homes in this area were built with wood-burning fireplaces - and yet most of them were cold and dark during the blackout. Nobody had more than a few hours worth of firewood on hand. |
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[#24]
Have a wood stove that's been heating this house since the mid 70's. Plus forty acres of oak trees. This WILL heat the whole house without power. For weeks even at -30.
Love all the idiots hooking up to natural gas lines. That's a whole new kind of stupid. Just ask the people in TX. Would I rely on pumped gas for anything, hell NO. |
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[#25]
Meh. Most of Maine went 2-4 weeks without power in January of 1998 after a massive ice storm. It took a bit of work, but almost everyone survived just fine. Hardly anyone had generators back then.
Woodstoves will keep your pipes from freezing if they are well placed, or just drain your pipes. Kero or propane heaters also work well, and can be placed in strategic locations. A LOT of people used coleman lanterns placed on basement floors under exterior wall piping to keep pipes from freezing. Use only the propane ones for this. People figure things out when they need to. Or do dumb things like use charcoal grills indoors and never have to figure out anything again. |
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[#26]
Quoted: Have a wood stove that's been heating this house since the mid 70's. Plus forty acres of oak trees. This WILL heat the whole house without power. For weeks even at -30. Love all the idiots hooking up to natural gas lines. That's a whole new kind of stupid. Just ask the people in TX. Would I rely on pumped gas for anything, hell NO. View Quote Not saying I would get rid of my propane tank, but I would convert the main furnace to NG |
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[#28]
Quoted: Ummm.. yes it does. We have been heating with a wood stove for 10 years. Haven't froze a single pipe or appliance yet. Our heat pump is backup.. and after that, a pair of kero towers. And after that, I have enough genny to run the heat pump, and enough fuel to keep it running nonstop for a week.. That fuel can run the small genny for 2 months. We have been without power for 10 days in the heart of winter. 2100 sqft 2 story house with full basement. https://i.postimg.cc/YGyx0R1Y/20140106-105716.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/vxgtVnzj/20140107-081638.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Non electric zone heating from say a wood stove or propane only fireplace is great, but it doesn't keep your pipes and water appliances from freezing up. . Ummm.. yes it does. We have been heating with a wood stove for 10 years. Haven't froze a single pipe or appliance yet. Our heat pump is backup.. and after that, a pair of kero towers. And after that, I have enough genny to run the heat pump, and enough fuel to keep it running nonstop for a week.. That fuel can run the small genny for 2 months. We have been without power for 10 days in the heart of winter. 2100 sqft 2 story house with full basement. https://i.postimg.cc/YGyx0R1Y/20140106-105716.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/vxgtVnzj/20140107-081638.jpg And while you CAN arrange your wood stove in a small MN house, with proper floor plan, to keep your house warm, that one fireplace in that back living room at the far end of the house on the upstairs won't keep your house warm on its own. |
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[#29]
Don't take this wrong, and no offense taken.. but I grew up in Hinckley. My mother was the kitchen manager at Tobie's for 25 years. She's buried 100 feet from the great fire memorial if you know the area. My family that still lives there, still heats with wood. They have an oil furnace as backup. And a genny. And my brother's house is bigger then mine.. Trust me, it can, and is, done.
But as a point, I also believe most people north of the Mason Dixon will have have severe issues if the grid goes down, esp. in concentration areas like the cities.. But out in the country, most people are prepared.. or as my dad says.. "normal". YMMV. |
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[#30]
Quoted: Don't take this wrong, and no offense taken.. but I grew up in Hinckley. My mother was the kitchen manager at Tobie's for 25 years. She's buried 100 feet from the great fire memorial if you know the area. My family that still lives there, still heats with wood. They have an oil furnace as backup. And a genny. And my brother's house is bigger then mine.. Trust me, it can, and is, done. But as a point, I also believe most people north of the Mason Dixon will have have severe issues if the grid goes down, esp. in concentration areas like the cities.. But out in the country, most people are prepared.. or as my dad says.. "normal". YMMV. View Quote House was setup for it though. Totally different animal than a modern house where the fireplace/woodstove is designed to be primarily decorative. Even in our new house, if I had a fireplace in the main floor living room, it would not do jack shit on its own to keep the pipes from freezing in the utility room on the opposite end of the house, in the basement. And I only have a 1400 sq ft rambler with full basement. Now if I could run the furnace fan to distribute the air around the house, then sure, assuming I could. Again, if the house is designed and setup for wood heat, then absolutely. And folks that are setup that way know it. I'm talking about the decorative fireplace/wood stoves that you see in modern houses. They would keep that immediate area warm, but that is about it. Actually, a buddy of mine had just this issue. He has about the same house we do, except his is a modular. He has a wood burning fireplace upstairs. We had a power outage in the winter a few years ago that lasted for a couple days during a cold spell (cold spell caused the outage indirectly). While they kept warm upstairs (about 60), he had to get a buddy heater going downstairs to keep the pipes from freezing. Luckily his basement is unfinished, all piping exposed, so keeping it about 40 degrees was enough. Heat rises, and had no interest in going downstairs on its own from the fireplace. ETA: His fireplace had an electric blower for when you actually wanted to get heat in the room, otherwise most of the heat went up the chimney. Of course, he had no generator, so that blower didn't work, and thus he got little more than the radiant heat from all the wood he burned. Normally, he can heat his whole house on that fireplace (about 45-50 in the basement) by using the fireplace blower and the HVAC fan to circulate the air. |
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[#31]
As of right now my house would freeze. Winter is one of my bigger concerns. I could survive though a lot, got plenty of water and food piled up, access to multiple little lakes and ponds for more water if needed. I have wood fireplace. I have never used it though. I had it cleaned and inspected when I bought the house 5 years ago just never had a need to use it. I have a transfer switch in my garage where the circuit breaker panel is and plan to get a small genny (just enough to run my gas furnace) but I need to look into it more and see what size I need. I have been eyeballing the stove inserts that you can put inside a regular fireplace to make them a lot more efficient but that is a huge expense for me and I live on a very tight budget. I have been putting money aside, figured I would start with a generator for any short term outages and then keep putting money aside for the insert and stock up on some wood. I live just north of the cities but my neighborhood is just like the regular suburbs with houses pretty much on top of each other so I don't have enough trees to where I could restock my wood supply easily. I would have to buy wood to stock pile it. Heating my house in an outage in winter is one of the last preps I need to work on. Should have been near the top but hindsight is always 20/20 after the fact.
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[#32]
Quoted: As of right now my house would freeze. Winter is one of my bigger concerns. I could survive though a lot, got plenty of water and food piled up, access to multiple little lakes and ponds for more water if needed. I have wood fireplace. I have never used it though. I had it cleaned and inspected when I bought the house 5 years ago just never had a need to use it. I have a transfer switch in my garage where the circuit breaker panel is and plan to get a small genny (just enough to run my gas furnace) but I need to look into it more and see what size I need. I have been eyeballing the stove inserts that you can put inside a regular fireplace to make them a lot more efficient but that is a huge expense for me and I live on a very tight budget. I have been putting money aside, figured I would start with a generator for any short term outages and then keep putting money aside for the insert and stock up on some wood. I live just north of the cities but my neighborhood is just like the regular suburbs with houses pretty much on top of each other so I don't have enough trees to where I could restock my wood supply easily. I would have to buy wood to stock pile it. Heating my house in an outage in winter is one of the last preps I need to work on. Should have been near the top but hindsight is always 20/20 after the fact. View Quote Not to say don't use your existing fireplace, I love a good wood fire, but I would not personally spend the money on the insert. |
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[#33]
Quoted: Honestly: Kero heaters for your situation. A 55 gallon barrel of kero goes a long time, puts out a LOT of heat, and stores indefinitely in little storage area. It also doesn't attract mice like a wood pile does. Not to say don't use your existing fireplace, I love a good wood fire, but I would not personally spend the money on the insert. View Quote Might have to look into that. I have only used the Kero garage heaters. Never looked at the ones for indoor use. |
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[#34]
Quoted: Might have to look into that. I have only used the Kero garage heaters. Never looked at the ones for indoor use. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Honestly: Kero heaters for your situation. A 55 gallon barrel of kero goes a long time, puts out a LOT of heat, and stores indefinitely in little storage area. It also doesn't attract mice like a wood pile does. Not to say don't use your existing fireplace, I love a good wood fire, but I would not personally spend the money on the insert. Might have to look into that. I have only used the Kero garage heaters. Never looked at the ones for indoor use. They smoke and stink until they warm up, but then they burn clean. I tend to get them going outside the move them indoors once they are going. Do this carefully if you move them lit, otherwise snuff them out, move them quickly, then fire them back up ASAP while the catalytic converter is still as hot as possible to minimize startup smoke. As with all indoor combustion devices, these will require ventilation, usually in the form of an old leaky ass house or cracking a window in a new sealed house. Kero heaters do take some maintenance, they aren't "run it until it stops working" like propane/NG. Every so many hours, with the fiberglass wick model of heaters like the Kero Sun heaters, you need to let them burn out of fuel completely, clean off the wick with a soft brass or nylon brush, clean out the catalytic converter (this is a good thing, not a worthless emissions thing), and then fire it back up. Not a big deal, but it needs to be done. What is nice is kero technology is stupid simple and reliable. You can keep one stored for decades w/o worry (my Perfection is almost 100 years old), and the kero, kept in an air-tight metal container, will out-live you. Perfect SHTF heat source, IMHO, with the exception that your fuel will run out. So not a Mad Max TEOTWAWKI solution, but for reality, it is a GREAT solution. |
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