I don't remember seeing much discussion of the Taurus Judge here in the survival forum.
I know there have been lots of discussions about them on the board.

What I find funny (as in strange) is that gold and silver have been a financial survival item for thousands of years.
Yet out of all the things people mention they want to stock, for some reason, gold and silver are considered worthless and/or dumb.

But if you stock .22LR.......   quick, cue the "Kings of the Future" speech.

.22 and soup cans will be worth more than some hunk of metal unless its lead then maybe you could get a fair trade for it.

I wish I was that positive.

Do the soup cans need to be full? or should I collect empty ones?

Yeah, I just meant arfcom in general.

RE: precious metals, If one can afford it, I can't think of a good reason to not have a few rolls of junk silver, or ASE's stashed away. It's not like they take up a lot of space.

A good example of SHTF, in my opinion is the creation of the Warsaw Ghetto.  (I copied and pasted some of this)  

On October 12, 1940, the Germans decreed the establishment of a ghetto in Warsaw. The decree required all Jewish residents of Warsaw to move into a designated area, which German authorities sealed off from the rest of the city in November 1940. The ghetto was enclosed by a wall that was over 10 feet high, topped with barbed wire, and closely guarded to prevent movement between the ghetto and the rest of Warsaw. The population of the ghetto, increased by Jews compelled to move in from nearby towns, was estimated to be over 400,000 Jews. German authorities forced ghetto residents to live in an area of 1.3 square miles, with an average of 7.2 persons per room.

Food allotments rationed to the ghetto by the German civilian authorities were not sufficient to sustain life. In 1941 the average Jew in the ghetto subsisted on 1,125 calories a day. Czerniaków wrote in his diary entry for May 8, 1941: “Children starving to death.” Between 1940 and mid-1942, 83,000 Jews died of starvation and disease. Widespread smuggling of food and medicines into the ghetto supplemented the miserable official allotments and kept the death rate from increasing still further.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005069

Of the total of 56,065 Jews caught, about 7,000 were exterminated within the former Ghetto in the course of the large-scale action, and 6,929 by transporting them to T.II, which means 14,000 Jews were exterminated altogether. Beyond the number of 56,065 Jews an estimated number of 5,000 to 6,000 were killed by explosions or in fires.

The number of destroyed dug-outs amounts to 631.

Booty:      

   Polish rifles, 1 Russian rifle, 1 German rifle 59 pistols of. various calibers

   Several hundred hand grenades, including Polish and home-made ones .

   Several hundred incendiary bottles

   Home-made explosives

   Infernal machines with fuses

   A large amount of explosives, ammunition for weapons of all calibers, including some machine-gun ammunition.

Regarding the booty of arms, it must be taken into consideration that the arms themselves could in most cases not be captured, as the bandits and Jews would, before being arrested, throw them into hiding places or holes which could not be ascertained or discovered. The smoking out of the dug-out by our men, also often made the search for arms impossible. As the dug-outs had to be blown up at once, a search later on was out of the question.

The captured hand grenades, ammunition, and incendiary bottles were at once reused by us against the bandits.

Further booty:

     

   1,240 used military tunics (part of them with medal ribbons-Iron Cross and East Medal)

   600 pairs of used trousers

   Other equipment and German steel helmets

   108 horses, 4 of them still in the former Ghetto (hearse) Up to 23 May 1943 we had counted:

4.4 million Zloty; furthermore about 5 to 6 million Zloty not yet counted, a great amount of foreign currency, e.g. $14,300 in paper and $9,200 in gold, moreover valuables (rings, chains, watches, etc.) in great quantities.

State of the Ghetto at the termination of the large-scale operation:

Apart from 8 buildings (Police Barracks, hospital, and accommodations for housing working-parties) the former Ghetto is completely destroyed. Only the dividing walls are left standing where no explosions were carried out. But the ruins still contain a vast amount of stones and scrap material which could be used.

Warsaw, 16 May, 1943.
The SS and Police Fuehrer in the
District of Warsaw.
SS Brigadefuehrer and Majorgeneral of Police.
from the Stroop Report
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/nowarsaw.html

The Warsaw Ghetto was kept supplied by a black market, money in the form of gold and silver that was used to buy weapons, medicine and food.

While that was happening in Poland, the United States government was throwing Americans of Japanese descent into camps.

Today, consider the provisions of the so-called "Patriot Act", the secret courts it created, the constant surveillance by virtually all government agencies, the continuous assaults on the second amendment, the "Affordable Care Act", the USSC's insane interpretation of the commerce clause.

Don't ever say "It can't happen here."  It already has.  The only difference is that today's ghetto doesn't have 10' walls, but instead offers the illusion of freedom so the inmates don't revolt, and will soon not have the tools to do so.

I just picked up some ASE's from JM bullion for $2.50 over spot and free shipping.  The sale ends tomorrow.  I don't keep a lot of silver, but I do like to have a little.  I think silver is much more useable for trade than gold.  I think if something happens and you have to use the silver to trade for hard goods, an ounce of silver probably won't go as far as a $20 bill today.  On the other hand people might not take $20 bills at all.



I definitely wouldn't put my retirement account in PM's, but I think its reasonable to keep some on hand - along with some cash, ammunition and food.

       
 

This is a really interesting book, about the Japanese controlled camp in Hong Kong.  I found a link to the book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=n3BvnhsnOngC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=japanese+internments+and+black+market&source=bl&ots=VYehJz6kpf&sig=NDj_O1sMyPF9zmLC-nhvU9x-gaw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=se06U9C2IKa-sQSolYLgCQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=japanese%20internments%20and%20black%20market&f=false

The chapter on the black market is worth a read.

The irony of this post is absolutely killing me.

It perfectly illustrates why I think PMs as a medium with which to barter are a waste: Encouraging people to stock up on PMs now so you can exploit them later. Not sure whether to or

Instead of PMs, wouldn't they be better off simply investing in/buying the same supplies that you would be willing to sell them at exorbitantly inflated prices later?

Nice find. There's also several accounts of Jews that managed to escape to US and other countries, thanks to the gold that got them transportation and allowed them to start over elsewhere. Many Nazis ended up doing the same thing after losing the war. In both cases a stash of gold made all the difference.
FerFAL

Despite what some say here silver and gold have their place. If it did not matter then why did every single civilization use food and weapons and armies and the lives of men to aquire them?

We all plan for different events and everyone here has a different situation.
When I think about the things that can happen during the rest of my life, and rate the probability.......

I only come up with one that is 100% ---> old age.

So, while I have preps for events up to and including a "Mad Max" world,
one of my main focus points is the 100% SHTF event we all face.
It gets closer everyday.

So, in addition to Social Security (which I do not count on),
I have my 401k,
my pension (again, not 100%),
savings,
and some gold and silver.

PM's are one part of my retirement plan I can physically see and hold in my hand.

I have about as much confidence that I will use PM's in SHTF as I do in the idea of going to the grocery store and paying with .22LR.

But, I can see me or the wife selling some PM's each month to supplement whatever retirement income we have - if needed.
If not, then it's just something else the kids get to inherit.

I am old enough to start running retirement numbers.
The wife and I can live a pretty comfortable, simple life without a lot of money,

Turns out, one of our biggest mandatory expenses is property taxes.
Guess people that think they will retire to the hills and wait for the government to come for them, might not be paranoid afterall.

YMMV

Can all of us stock up on exactly the same stuff and exactly the same skills?

Let me help you out. I will even use myself and my shortcomings as an example. I can handle some very basic auto repairs. I can do some very basic small engine maintenance. But beyond that there isn't much else I can do if an engine stops working. So what do I do? Go sign up for classes at the local tech school? Possibly. But I am very busy as a single Father of 3 kids. A full time job, and family responsibilities. So instead of taking time away from them I plan ahead. As all of us do. I have supplies INCLUDING silver and gold to trade and barter so if and when TSHTF I have what someone wants in case I need something. I also have supplies to trade in case they need something. I have added variety and flexibility to my preps. And can you really say variety and flexibility is a bad thing?

possible scenario:
So my generator stops working. My neighbor is a mechanic and a prepper. He offers to look at it and finds out it needs some little part I don't have to be able to fix it. So out of the goodness of his heart he just gives me the last spare he has?? Or more likely he asks for a trade. He has lots of food and ammo. He has a creek and solar panels. Plenty of gas and lots of other supplies. Now what do I trade him? Well I dip in and offer him 3 silver dollars. See how that can work?

Your assumption that ONLY items you deem have value will be used is confusing to me.

This also brings up the topic of value. What is something valued? Obviously for you there is no value in Gold or Silver. So if we were trading you wouldn't care about that. I could offer you 1000 silver dollars for your chicken and apparently you could care less. So there is no value. However value is subjective. I personally put a lot of value on silver because of a long list of reasons. Many of which have already been posted in this thread by others. So if you come to my house and offer me .22lr....... well to be fair I have a shit ton of it and really don't need more. And when I say a shit ton I mean me and my kids could shoot hundreds of rounds a day for a while and not really run out. So you could offer me 1000 rounds of 22lr for a chicken and I wouldn't bat an eye at it. But because I value silver you could offer me 2 silver dollars and man you have a deal.

Not having PM's to trade is like saying I only have a 12gauge shotgun in my preps cause that's all anybody else should have too.........

And if you read this whole thread at least half the people posting here would take silver and gold as trade. So why would you choose to ignore an obvious item that people are already telling you they will trade for?

For me, the value of being able to physically see and hold it is less than having it's worth invested someplace where it is actually working for me and generating a return. In many instances PMs do little more than stuffing cash under your mattress.

I did read the whole thread. You know, where pretty much everyone said they would accept PMs in barter for a fraction of their value in a SHTF. Hell, I would, too. But pre-planning to pay exorbitant amounts for basic items and services?

Seems to me that you have to create specific scenarios to rationalize your opinion regarding PMs as a preparedness item.

For forward thinking people who are already preparing for crisis events, I maintain that money is better spent on materials and knowledge than on PMs. Buying PMs with the plan to use  them as barter material during SHTF where you would likely have to trade them away for a fraction of their value just seems like a losing proposition and a plan to fail.

Unfortunately I do not have the kind of money needed for it to "generate me a return" (which I believe means monthly income)
I can see my 401k balance and took advantage of the 2008 crash to increase my contributions and ride it back up.

But just as having some cash on hand for emergencies is nice,
I like to know that at least in case of a total economic meltdown, my retirement is not just tied to a fiat currency.

If 2008 showed me anything, it showed me that the money I have invested can disappear pretty quick.

ETA:
and as I said, I don't consider them for SHTF or for trade/barter.
it is simply something that I decided to add, after the other things.

Here is how I look at it:

Let's pick a generic time frame. Say the year is 1984. I have $400 to invest. I can buy $400 worth of gold or $400 worth of a S&P 500 index fund.

Fast forward 30 years. That $400 worth of gold would now be worth about $1,300. The $400 in a S&P 500 index fund would currently be worth about $3,000. Even if the market fell by half, it would still provide me with $1,500.

Was being able to see and hold the gold for that 30 years really worth $1,700? To me, the answer is no. But I can accept that we all have different comfort levels and risk tolerance.



This thread is about SHTF barter, so despite our differences regarding other aspects of PMs, we may be in agreement on this one.

I think we can all agree that buying silver alone, and ignoring things like food, with the plan being to just buy what you need after an economic meltdown using said silver is foolish.  It is just another contingency and a way to have cash on hand that won't be devalued to zero in the event of an economic meltdown.  

I still have cash, I still have investments, and I still have my beans and bullets.

People who buy silver and gold for SHTF scenarios buy it for two different reasons.

1) A post apocalyptic fantasy, where we resort to using romantic metals.
2) The realization that the eventual and inevitable breakdown of the dollar could lead to an upheaval where most of us who have our wealth tied up in bank accounts that are nothing more than abstract numbers on paper could stand to lose everything.   In that scenario, which is actually far more likely than a Mad Max scenario, those who have tangible methods of preserving wealth will have a buffer.   Precious metals represent that tangible method.   Gemstones would be another, but they are harder to establish a value for, or to turn back into spendable money.   There are lots of physical goods that would fill this role, but precious metals, especially in already assayed form like American Eagles are ideal.  They are small, portable, and can hold an extremely large value, and don't typically depreciate.

Could it be because those folks have little of it?

The historically permanent 'Sour Grapes' mentality?

Yep, that's the best working theory.   They always frame their statements as if you can only choose one.

It doesn't take much thinking outside the box or IQ to figger this out.

2 reasons are storage requirements and for some items, shelf life.

Another is portability.

Or hiding massive amts of ammo in your vehicle....  

Seems some people do a lot a selective reading here.

Does the same reasoning equally apply to people who constantly express criticism and paranoia about being invested in the stock market? Or those who imagine some conspiracy about the engineered destruction of the middle class behind everything?

As long as the opportunity cost of doing so is understood, go for it.

But start talking about the opportunity cost and "OMG!!! Yer just jealous because you ain't got none!!!"

Those two scenarios actually sound fairly identical to me.

And the "bank accounts that are nothing more than abstract numbers on paper" is very telling.

I should rephrase the Sour Grapes issue to include that some of those folks have little expectation of having the resources of obtaining much ---if any.

So they FOOL themselves into thinking [remember Fooling Ourselves is the GREAT NATIONAL PASTIME]  that PM's have little value in a SHTF.

To make their thinking more absurd, they can't even understand what the SHTF will likely look like....

Besides FANTASY crap they see in the moronic movies or read in silly 'survival' books.

Like someone mentioned some posts back, most folks have little understanding of economics.

Hell most don't even know who their politicians are, ---I sure as hell don't....

Let alone, a recent survey found ---was it 40% of US folks thought the Sun revolved around the Earth ---or was it the other way around?

And how many don't know you can't siphon water uphill...  in the N Hemisphere of course.

I always get best gas mileage heading down the earth's curvature, South, and have posted this many times... [Only in the N Hemisphere, haven't tried it in the S Hemi, have to axe FerFal...]

There's a whole lot more to life than 'Opportunity Cost'.

Do you buy insurance?

'Risk Management' is also a factor in life, and the way folks manage themselves, you'd think they have no concept of it.  


I expect you haven't noticed the ongoing spiral of the "Engineered Destruction of the Middle Class", sadly someday you might  uh, you likely WILL....

What?

No PMs?

Parapraxis?

I still have PMs, but it isn't a huge percentage of what I've got put back....  

Smartass

The reasoning, even applied to different specifics, is probably correct. And applicable to all of us, yourself included, to some extent as well.

Do you understand how value works?? It's only a fraction of its value if you compare it to a fiat currency you bought it with. And I'm assuming you are not suggesting paper money will have the same value when it all goes south.


This isn't GD so not getting in a pissing contest. I will stand on my 4000 years of historical evidence and call it a day.

Of course...  

http://www.silverbarter.com/home.html

"Silver for Barter" website. A friend of mine emailed me the link.

Yes, I have various forms of insurance. Some because it is provided as part of a compensation package for employment, some because I am legally required to, some because it's what I have contractually agreed to and some because, as you may have implied, it's a fiscally prudent form of risk management.

I see where you are trying to go, and I still don't see the value in holding PMs, which everyone in the thread has agreed will be significantly devalued when you need them most; As a medium for bartering should the SHTF. I suppose the portability would be nice if you foresee yourself becoming a refugee. Otherwise, if one feels inclined to prepare for the sort of economic collapse that people are fantasizing about as a rationalization, the way I see it is that goods and services which have an actual physical use would be inherently more valuable trading material than a metal just sits there and looks shiny and stuff.

I suppose it boils down to (A) how likely one believes massive, unprecedented economic collapse to be and (B) how worthwhile they perceive PMs would actually be in such an environment.

But hey, it's still a free country. We all take our chances one way or another. Looking back, I don't wish I had invested less and bought some PMs instead. Looking forward, I'm not seeing any real reason to, either.

The biggest risk I am managing is probably going to be our retirement, and for that purpose I feel our resources are much better allocated in assets other than PMs. The return has certainly been MUCH better.



So who is the engineer?

Actually, you have it backwards. In the extremely unlikely event of complete currency collapse, the PM would be worth much more in relation to the now defunct fiat currency.

Now how about compared to the goods or services you are desiring to buy with the PM after the poop has hit the fan? One could go buy a megapack of Charmin at Costco right now for about what an ounce of silver costs today. Or pay 3-4 ounces for it after SHTF. What makes more sense? Maybe for the apartment dweller who does not have to room to store many supplies, the PMs make sense. They are already starting off at a disadvantage, however, and then it's just going to get worse. But I could agree that something is better than nothing, I suppose.



4,000 years of what? The irrational valuing of a metal that does not have any actual utility? In this global economic shitstorm being fantasizing about where people are literally starving to death, you don't think that perception might get flipped on it's head?

To be fair both metals have utility.  Silver in particular is being used in large quantities for industrial applications from what I understand.  Granted, that utility isn't likely to be useful after large scale SHTF/economic meltdown but it does tend to ensure that the metal won't become worthless in the future in the absence of such an event.

Silver and gold have value because people think they do, just like with paper money.  The difference is that perception of value isn't tied to the government so it is widely believed that the value won't tank like that of paper money in the event of a governmental failure.  

The way I see it, gold and silver are more likely to gain in value than paper money if both are sitting in a safe.  They are also more difficult to spend quickly than paper money, which can be good if you are prone to impulse spending but bad if you need cash quickly for an emergency.  Gold and silver are less likely to increase in value at the rate other investments will, but they are also less likely to drop in value and almost guaranteed to never be worth nothing.  They are low risk/low gain and a portion of investment should be in the low risk category.

Gold and silver simply have the added potential benefit of being the only form of recognizable and accepted currency after a major SHTF.  It is only a potential benefit, since none of us know what the future holds.  Plan accordingly.

Just a question for the non silver people... let's say you have your preps all squared away, you have extra cash flow, what do you do with the money?

Double up on preps? Retirement / stocks? Barter goods? Have fun with it?

Apply it towards protecting from far more likely problems.  Having enough savings to deal with losing your job for 6 months, for example.  Reducing your debt.  Funding your kid's college fund.  Saving for retirement.  

The odds of a SHTF scenario where you're staying in the country and have to barter PMs for goods is incredibly low.  Stocking up on preps is useful because it helps you through the normal emergencies of life, like ice storms, or job loss.  PMs, not so much.  Now, if your SHTF plan is to flee the country ASAP, then sure, though you better have some kind of plan to a)get all those metal through customs on both sides, and b)a guarantee that you can get to where you're going and that they'll take you.  But then, if that's your plan then you probably don't have too much in the way of preps.

Wait a second.... You are saying that the US dollar is the very first fiat based government backed currency in the entire history of mankind that probably won't crash. I would think its uncommon to be on a survivalist forum and feel that much faith in our government and elected officials. The only thing I have that much faith in keeps me going to church on Sundays. I wish you the best of luck. And hope neither one of us has to go through an event to find out who is right.

As usual, if you have to ask, the answer would most likely be wasted.

EDOTMC

I also don't have to leave my house to poops thanks to an amazing device called a toilet. An even more amazing contraption called an airplane can whisk me across continents in mere hours. I can sit here in the comfort of my living room and communicate with people around the world in real time using a variety of mediums, too. Point is, things change. There is a lot more incentive to keep the dollar or any other major currency from crashing too hard thanks to the world being more interconnected and interdependent than ever. I don't necessarily have faith in government and elected officials, I have faith in our markets and that capitalists are gonna capitalize. I don't think it's uncommon at all for people to be these forums who are quietly focusing their preparations towards foreseeable, reasonably plausible scenarios instead of low probability end-of-the-world stuff.

If preps and retirement are squared away, I'm leaning towards adding it to the fun slush fund. That might be towards a vacation, a new toy, nights out, etc.

There is a whole hell of a lot more to life than basic survival. Money and what it can do should be enjoyed once in a while, too.

It's kind of funny you used the flushing toilet as an example of change. Did you know the first recorded flushing toilet was used by King Minos of Crete 2800 years ago? As for planes.... Would you say it is better thenit was 20 years ago? Or 30 years ago? Plane travel while I agree is faster has not gotten better. TSA goons grabbing kids privates.... Long lines.... Horrible seats.... Planes have become the school buses of the skies. I would much prefer a nice boat or luxery automobile to a plane ride.

As far as the incentive to keep the dollar did you happen to notice that Russia and China just made a historical multi billion dollar deal for oil and goods. You know what was missing? Yup the use of the dollar as the currency of transfer. So just a few days ago two of the top 3 players on the international markets just kicked the third out.... (The third was us btw)

How is that change working out for you?

One more thing to add, brought to you by a minor shtf / opportunity in my life.  

Today, I'm moving a portion of my preps across the country.  It took me 24 hours just to pack them in my Suburban.   And now, it's going to take me 32 hours of straight driving.   Along with all the attendant risk and expense associated with the journey.   I'll make it in 2 days, but it's really a 3 or 4 day trip.    

See where I'm going with this?


Portability is a huge factor in the game of survival.  Possibly the biggest.  

I would think someone like Boomer would know.

Would I rather jump on a plane with a bag full of silver or a pocket full o gold?      

Yes.  Damned right I would.

Because this is a cast iron Bitch.  A Royal pain in the Ass, even without roving bands of MBG's every mile.  

Portability.   Think about it.

Survival and trade goods are fine, but Unless you are dirt poor, you better plan on socking away some portable wealth.

Would you care to adopt me?

Boomer, thought you would appreciate this...


EDOTMC


Quote:

CHICAGO (CBS) — The graphic that you are about to see is sobering, perhaps depressing, and you can’t take your eyes off it.

We have the exhaustive work of Daniel Kay Hertz, a masters student at the University Of Chicago’s Harris School of Public Policy, to thank for that.

At the risk of sounding like an old carnival barker, step right up and watch the middle class of Chicago vanish before your eyes.



However, this is no side-show.

It shows the demise of the foundation of an American city.

Watch as the grey squares, which illustrate the middle class that dominated the most of the city’s neighborhoods in 1970s, quickly vanish over 40 years.

The poor, represented by the orange and red colors, explode across the map.

Sickening graphic...

http://danielhertz.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/incseggif.gif?w=1000&h=1194