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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:42:40 PM EDT
...before the standard 6920 looks like the EPR or FBP2? Especially, if the CM762 is reintroduced as an always available model.
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Quoted: ...before the standard 6920 looks like the EPR or FBP2? Especially, if the CM762 is reintroduced as an always available model. View Quote I think the 6920 will exist as a base model for another 20 years easily. They sell strong on the retail market. |
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Quoted: I think the 6920 will exist as a base model for another 20 years easily. They sell strong on the retail market. View Quote So, they are going to equip their base .308 with a 15” FF m-lok rail and quality flip-up sights, but the base 5.56 gets a handguard you can’t attach any accessories to and a FSB? I don’t know why they would have the .308 live in the 21st century, while keeping the 5.56 stuck in the ‘60s for another 20 years. |
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My patrol rifle is a 6920 with a RAS rail. I prefer that over my EPR for duty. Cheaper to replace a rail if it gets damaged, which it never did. I don’t mind the FSB at all.
Maybe I’m stuck in the past but I own 6940’s, 901, EPR, and I still have no issue with a 6920 design. |
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So you choose the 6920 over the EPR because it would be cheaper to replace a damaged rail????? Are you being serious?
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Quoted: So you choose the 6920 over the EPR because it would be cheaper to replace a damaged rail????? Are you being serious? View Quote I have both. I prefer to leave the EPR at home where it’s not getting banged around in a car. I don’t feel I have a disadvantage with a regular 6920. That was the point of my post. Sorry you missed the point. A 6920 is still great for a reliable gun without the need of a longer free float rail or any other extras. |
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Quoted: I think the 6920 will exist as a base model for another 20 years easily. They sell strong on the retail market. View Quote I’m with this. You will see the OEM replace the standard 6920 before you see an updated base model and I don’t think that is happening. Instead of just slapping some rail on a 6920, Colt should really up their game and offer something to compete with Geissele, LMT, KAC and DD. I recently bought a Geissele superduty rifle. As much as I like Colt, the G is a very nice rifle and IMO better/nicer than anything Colt is offering. Yes I paid a premium for it over a Colt but I would have paid the same premium and bought a Colt if they offered something comparable. |
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Quoted: I’m with this. You will see the OEM replace the standard 6920 before you see an updated base model and I don’t think that is happening. Instead of just slapping some rail on a 6920, Colt should really up their game and offer something to compete with Geissele, LMT, KAC and DD. I recently bought a Geissele superduty rifle. As much as I like Colt, the G is a very nice rifle and IMO better/nicer than anything Colt is offering. Yes I paid a premium for it over a Colt but I would have paid the same premium and bought a Colt if they offered something comparable. View Quote I’m trying to understand the logic, especially in the face of the CM762 becoming available. Colt recognized that the smooth handguard and FSB were dated and therefore put a low profile gas block, a FF full length rail and some steel flip-up sights on the CM. Seems like the same logic should be applied to the 6920. I agree that the OEM, 1 and 2, should always be available, so that if someone wants to assemble a carbine with a retro look they can buy a 1. But, the base 6920 should look like the base CM. Your Super Duty came with a low profile gas block, FF rail and no sights at all. Seems like G, as well as nearly everyone else, has figured it out. Also, why would updating the rifle impact sales? People who buy 6920s will continue to buy 6920s. In fact, a better argument could be made that sales would improve. |
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Quoted: Your Super Duty came with a low profile gas block, FF rail and no sights at all. Seems like G, as well as nearly everyone else, has figured it out. . View Quote Except Colt hasn’t figured it out even on there updated versions like the EPR. They have what you are suggesting available and I bet the standard 6920 outsells it by far. People want a Colt because it’s a Colt. The 6920 sells because it’s basically “what the military” has. If Colt wants to get into the game you’re suggesting, they really need to up what they are bringing. And yes, it is kind of sad because they have the resources and name to do it they just choose not to. They remind me of Harley Davison. |
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If Colt logic - is that an oxymoron? - determines that the base .308 look like this...
Attached File ..., than if you apply the same logic, the base 5.56 should look like this. Attached File I don’t believe sales would suffer, to the contrary I believe more people would purchase the set. |
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Quoted: Except Colt hasn’t figured it out even on there updated versions like the EPR. They have what you are suggesting available and I bet the standard 6920 outsells it by far. People want a Colt because it’s a Colt. The 6920 sells because it’s basically “what the military” has. If Colt wants to get into the game you’re suggesting, they really need to up what they are bringing. And yes, it is kind of sad because they have the resources and name to do it they just choose not to. They remind me of Harley Davison. View Quote They dumped the carry handle ~8 years ago, because it’s not the ‘60s anymore, and I believe it’s overdue for the FSB to be dumped too. |
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The FSB is not going anywhere until the military stops buying rifles with it. Similar to how about a decade ago the military started taking delivery of rifles with flip up rear sights rather than carry handles…
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You are making a lot of friends in this forum I see by all of your comments in various threads in here.
Might want to simmer down and read your post out loud before hitting the submit icon. Quoted: So you choose the 6920 over the EPR because it would be cheaper to replace a damaged rail????? Are you being serious? View Quote |
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I agree with this. People want the OG style (me) as well as all the variations in generations and modifications. The FSB is just damn sexy and hey! Get both, or all you can!
Quoted: I think the 6920 will exist as a base model for another 20 years easily. They sell strong on the retail market. View Quote |
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Quoted: If Colt logic - is that an oxymoron? - determines that the base .308 look like this... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/240604/3355E948-CA78-4B29-ACA9-66DFC3D8CC0B_jpe-2187991.JPG ..., than if you apply the same logic, the base 5.56 should look like this. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/240604/AE19ED6A-8749-4AD9-B7B5-D1EDD5AD5F4B_jpe-2187998.JPG I don’t believe sales would suffer, to the contrary I believe more people would purchase the set. View Quote From a marketing point of view I think the 901 is still looking for its place.. that’s why it carries all the cool stuff.. they’re still looking for big contracts. On the other hand the basic M4/6920 still sell easily & they probably don’t see the reason to delete it.. they made various attempt over the years at offering improved 6920/M4 variants (6940, epr, ccu, etc) but I guess none of them ever outclassed the good old M4… The fact they sat on govt contracts for decades didn’t help the situation either |
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Quoted: they made various attempt over the years at offering improved 6920/M4 variants (6940, epr, ccu, etc) but I guess none of them ever outclassed the good old M4… View Quote Except they really weren’t all that “improved” over the classic m4 as far as what you were getting vs what other company’s were offering for their “improved” m4. They tried but it really was a half ass attempt. |
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Quoted: From a marketing point of view I think the 901 is still looking for its place.. that’s why it carries all the cool stuff.. they’re still looking for big contracts. On the other hand the basic M4/6920 still sell easily & they probably don’t see the reason to delete it.. they made various attempt over the years at offering improved 6920/M4 variants (6940, epr, ccu, etc) but I guess none of them ever outclassed the good old M4… The fact they sat on govt contracts for decades didn’t help the situation either View Quote Except, the photo is of the CM762, which is basically the budget 901. Yet, it’s still equipped like a modern rifle. The CM762 could grab most of the market share from the 716i - which will be it’s direct competition - if it can stay close in price. The 716i is starting to sell well, because people want a .308 that doesn’t cost $2500. And people like the fact that there is a lot of data about the rifle, in regards to dependability, because of the Indian Army contract. The EPR would sell just like the base 6920 if it was the base 6920. All Colt would have to do is make their own rail, instead of buying rails from Centurion(or G like the FBP2), to keep the price down. I believe that’s how they kept the price down on the CM762, it’s a Colt rail. |
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Quoted: The EPR would sell just like the base 6920 if it was the base 6920. View Quote But what you are asking for is available and it doesn’t sell well because of the base 6920 and it’s ties to the military. (Although they kind of fucked that up with the current “carbine” roll mark). The EPR is really only marketed for LE that either doesn’t have a budget to change out the rail after purchase or an armorer to do it, which is fine as they will sell some to agency’s. Colt doesn’t need a budget priced AR with a rail, they need to keep making something close to what the .gov gets(markings included) and then they need a completely different line to compete with the top players. They went the wrong way when they did the Expanse model (and the current “carbine” BS.) They really only need a few rifles civilians/LE -OEM 2 -M4, M4a1 and commando(marked accordingly)10.3/11.5, 14.5, 14.5 pinned legal and a 16”. Equip them like the current 6920 and socom is. They can leave these in a government, LE, or “legacy” series. -Top of the line civilian/LE rifle. Market it though the Colt custom shop if need be with fit/finish matching something that would come out of there. Basically a G superduty Colt clone. 10.3/11.5 pistol, 14.5 pinned, or a 16” with multiple colors. |
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Quoted: But what you are asking for is available and it doesn’t sell well because of the base 6920 and it’s ties to the military. (Although they kind of fucked that up with the current “carbine” roll mark). The EPR is really only marketed for LE that either doesn’t have a budget to change out the rail after purchase or an armorer to do it, which is fine as they will sell some to agency’s. Colt doesn’t need a budget priced AR with a rail, they need to keep making something close to what the .gov gets(markings included) and then they need a completely different line to compete with the top players. They went the wrong way when they did the Expanse model (and the current “carbine” BS.) They really only need a few rifles civilians/LE -OEM 2 -M4, M4a1 and commando(marked accordingly)10.3/11.5, 14.5, 14.5 pinned legal and a 16”. Equip them like the current 6920 and socom is. They can leave these in a government, LE, or “legacy” series. -Top of the line civilian/LE rifle. Market it though the Colt custom shop if need be with fit/finish matching something that would come out of there. Basically a G superduty Colt clone. 10.3/11.5 pistol, 14.5 pinned, or a 16” with multiple colors. View Quote You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying, or I’m doing a poor job of communicating . The “CR6920” should be an OEM2, with a Colt full length FF m-lok rail(like the CM762), a Colt stock, a Colt grip and a Colt trigger guard. This would keep the price for the 6920 where it is currently. The overpriced - because of the aftermarket parts that Colt purchases for them - EPR would be unnecessary and be discontinued. That’s why my OP reads “looks like an EPR”. Also, keep the OEM1 for the guys that want to assemble old school carbines, with FSBs and short quad pic rails. ETA: And since it’s my party , mark it with the COLT logo being centered above CARBINE(COLT CARBINE) and put the Pony logo on the opposite side of the magwell. C’mon, you know you’d buy one. |
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How well do you think the CR6920 would sell if there was such a thing as a CM556-16H-M5A and its price was within a couple of hundred bucks of the CR6920? It’s a Colt made rail and they already include one flip-up sight with the CR6920, so there shouldn’t be a big price difference.
Attached File |
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Quoted: How well do you think the CR6920 would sell if there was such a thing as a CM556-16H-M5A and the price was within a couple of hundred bucks? It’s a Colt made rail and they already include one flip-up sight with the CR6920, so there shouldn’t be a big price difference. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/240604/B5A14196-47D9-425C-9436-95391F317A5B_jpe-2193054.JPG View Quote Yes. This config would sell huge. |
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Quoted: Yep, the 16” CM would outsell the CR three to one, if the price of the CM was within a couple of hundred bucks of the CR. Which should be doable. View Quote I keep hearing you say this but IMO if that rifle is offered it will be more than a few hundred dollar difference. That would probably have a MSRP of $1899 with dealers maybe offering it for $1500-$1600 when the market gets saturated with them. They will sell for MSRP for quite some time. In contrast the CR6920 were just being offered at $699 and can be had easily for $999. |
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I believe the civi 6920s are a buffer pool for the military contract overruns, and, as stated above, will always be around as long as the military is buying.
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Quoted: So you choose the 6920 over the EPR because it would be cheaper to replace a damaged rail????? Are you being serious? View Quote When you actually use your rifle as a tool and have to carry it in a car around a bunch of other crap, yes, I can see Den's point. I've been there. Especially if I was providing the rifle for work use. Simple works for a patrol rifle. And to replace a RAS wouldn't require an armorer for most agencies, whereas replacing a FF rail would. The std 6920 will have a place for a long time. It's not going anywhere. There is a simplicity to just slapping a BUIS on a std rifle and going. Most people buying AR15s are not us on this forum. |
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Quoted: I keep hearing you say this but IMO if that rifle is offered it will be more than a few hundred dollar difference. That would probably have a MSRP of $1899 with dealers maybe offering it for $1500-$1600 when the market gets saturated with them. They will sell for MSRP for quite some time. In contrast the CR6920 were just being offered at $699 and can be had easily for $999. View Quote Did anyone actually receive one of those 699 CRs? Throwing that number out there is misleading. The CM762 could be had in the 1300s before they stopped production. Also, EPRs are in the 1200s and Colt is buying parts from Centurion, Magpul, Bravo, etc., for them. I don’t remember what’s on them at this moment. They could put together a 16” CM556 using all Colt parts. Stock, grip, trigger guard, mag, and the rail which is far and away the most costly aftermarket part that’s on the EPRs, FBP2s, etc. Also, leave the vert grip off of it. This should keep the cost down. The Magpul Pro sights aren’t cheap either, so that would be significant savings. Without any aftermarket parts, you should primarily have the increased cost of producing the Colt FF rail and the cost of one more flip-up sight and that should be offset by the elimination of the FSB. Picture the photo of the M5 above, with all Colt parts, no vert grip and no fancy accessory pack. What would you see that would demand the MSRP that you are suggesting? Colt could put the MSRP where you’re suggesting, but the parts wouldn’t add up to it being justified, if they use their own parts. |
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Quoted: When you actually use your rifle as a tool and have to carry it in a car around a bunch of other crap, yes, I can see Den's point. I've been there. Especially if I was providing the rifle for work use. Simple works for a patrol rifle. And to replace a RAS wouldn't require an armorer for most agencies, whereas replacing a FF rail would. The std 6920 will have a place for a long time. It's not going anywhere. There is a simplicity to just slapping a BUIS on a std rifle and going. Most people buying AR15s are not us on this forum. View Quote The Centurion rail can be replaced in minutes on an OEM2 based carbine. A child could do it. |
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Quoted: Did anyone actually receive one of those 699 CRs? Throwing that number out there is misleading. The CM762 could be had in the 1300s before they stopped production. Also, EPRs are in the 1200s and Colt is buying parts from Centurion, Magpul, Bravo, etc., for them. I don’t remember what’s on them at this moment. They could put together a 16” CM556 using all Colt parts. Stock, grip, trigger guard, mag, and the rail which is far and away the most costly aftermarket part that’s on the EPRs, FBP2s, etc. Also, leave the very grip off of it. This should keep the cost down. The Magpul Pro sights aren’t cheap either, so that would be significant savings. Without any aftermarket parts, you should primarily have the increased cost of producing the Colt FF rail and the cost of one more flip-up sight and that should be offset by the elimination of the FSB. Picture the photo of the M5 above, with all Colt parts, no vert grip and no fancy accessory pack. What would you see that would demand the MSRP that you are suggesting? Colt could put the MSRP where you’re suggesting, but the parts wouldn’t add up to it being justified, if they use their own parts. View Quote Sounds like you have it all figured out. |
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It’s not that difficult, the writing is on the wall. Technology is advancing rapidly. As it advances, things will become smaller, lighter, less expensive and batteries will become more powerful. And as that happens, new weapon mounted systems will emerge. These systems will need to be mounted somewhere and it’s not going to be on a short quad pic rail. And the beloved FSB will just be in the way.
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Quoted: The Centurion rail can be replaced in minutes on an OEM2 based carbine. A child could do it. View Quote No kidding... I'm talking about work policies. Most depts require someone certified as an armorer to do it for liability reasons. That is what I was talking about. Replacing barrel nuts, removing delta rings, etc, is a no go for a lot of agencies unless certified. Some don't care if it's your personal rifle. You could slap one of centurion's $300 rails on an OEM1 or 2 using the standard barrel nut and maybe get around the requirement. Just depends on how the rules are written. |
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Quoted: No kidding... I'm talking about work policies. Most depts require someone certified as an armorer to do it for liability reasons. That is what I was talking about. Replacing barrel nuts, removing delta rings, etc, is a no go for a lot of agencies unless certified. Some don't care if it's your personal rifle. You could slap one of centurion's $300 rails on an OEM1 or 2 using the standard barrel nut and maybe get around the requirement. Just depends on how the rules are written. View Quote Gotcha, I misinterpreted your post. And you’re right, something as benign as changing out a rail that attaches to the standard barrel nut could likely be verboten. I’m just used to hearing about how you couldn’t give a rifle with a full length FF rail, with a flip-up front sight, to an 18 year old Marine, because it wouldn’t be tough enough. I live in a temperate rain forest that’s as thick as any jungle on the planet, but is also packed with large trees and tree falls. My rifles get banged off of trees frequently and I have never damaged a FF rail or steel front flip-up sight. And if I did, it’s child’s play to change out. The Indian Army is being issued the 716i as their standard rifle. There isn’t a ton of information out yet, in regards to how well the rifle is performing, but so far it seems to be doing well and I haven’t read anything about problems with the rail or front sight being too easily damaged. |
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Quoted: The Centurion rail can be replaced in minutes on an OEM2 based carbine. A child could do it. View Quote It has nothing to do with how simple it is to replace the rail for me. It has to do with what I bought the rifles for. The EPR was purchased as a home/range rifle. It was more expensive and I don’t want it getting banged up in a car. I have several 6920’s with the FSB. For a tool use, I prefer to take one of those in the car. The FF rail does nothing for the distances I would actually be shooting during work. To me, the standard 6920 has all I need as a tool for work. I realize I’m not the majority when it comes to AR preferences. |
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Quoted: When you actually use your rifle as a tool and have to carry it in a car around a bunch of other crap, yes, I can see Den's point. I've been there. Especially if I was providing the rifle for work use. Simple works for a patrol rifle. And to replace a RAS wouldn't require an armorer for most agencies, whereas replacing a FF rail would. The std 6920 will have a place for a long time. It's not going anywhere. There is a simplicity to just slapping a BUIS on a std rifle and going. Most people buying AR15s are not us on this forum. View Quote Exactly. I don’t need the extra rail space nor being FF for work duties. I’d rather have those feature for home/range. But apparently my preferences got some people upset. |
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Quoted: It has nothing to do with how simple it is to replace the rail for me. It has to do with what I bought the rifles for. The EPR was purchased as a home/range rifle. It was more expensive and I don’t want it getting banged up in a car. I have several 6920’s with the FSB. For a tool use, I prefer to take one of those in the car. The FF rail does nothing for the distances I would actually be shooting during work. To me, the standard 6920 has all I need as a tool for work. I realize I’m not the majority when it comes to AR preferences. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: The Centurion rail can be replaced in minutes on an OEM2 based carbine. A child could do it. It has nothing to do with how simple it is to replace the rail for me. It has to do with what I bought the rifles for. The EPR was purchased as a home/range rifle. It was more expensive and I don’t want it getting banged up in a car. I have several 6920’s with the FSB. For a tool use, I prefer to take one of those in the car. The FF rail does nothing for the distances I would actually be shooting during work. To me, the standard 6920 has all I need as a tool for work. I realize I’m not the majority when it comes to AR preferences. The EPR, Trooper(self-explanatory), FBP1 and FBP2 exist for a reason. |
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Quoted: The EPR, Trooper(self-explanatory), FBP1 and FBP2 exist for a reason. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Centurion rail can be replaced in minutes on an OEM2 based carbine. A child could do it. It has nothing to do with how simple it is to replace the rail for me. It has to do with what I bought the rifles for. The EPR was purchased as a home/range rifle. It was more expensive and I don’t want it getting banged up in a car. I have several 6920’s with the FSB. For a tool use, I prefer to take one of those in the car. The FF rail does nothing for the distances I would actually be shooting during work. To me, the standard 6920 has all I need as a tool for work. I realize I’m not the majority when it comes to AR preferences. The EPR, Trooper(self-explanatory), FBP1 and FBP2 exist for a reason. Whatever. It’s my money. I’ll buy what I want. Go back to GD. |
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Quoted: Whatever. It’s my money. I’ll buy what I want. Go back to GD. View Quote You’re awfully thin skinned. I hope you aren’t actually LEO. “Whatever, it’s my toy, I’ll take it and go home!” You don’t want to use your purdy EPR, “because it was more expensive and you don’t want it to get banged up in a car”, and you’re telling me to go back to GD? |
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Quoted: You’re awfully thin skinned. I hope you aren’t actually LEO. “Whatever, it’s my toy, I’ll take it and go home!” You don’t want to use your purdy EPR, “because it was more expensive and you don’t want it to get banged up in a car”, and you’re telling me to go back to GD? View Quote Lol on the thin skinned. I just know not to argue with mental people. You create a thread about the 6920 being updated from its current configuration, I say that for some needs I still prefer that configuration, and you somehow have a problem with that. Go have as many EPR’s as you want, I could care less. A basic carbine still has its role for some people. If they decide to stop making it that way, one can just build it. I know what the EPR trooper means. No need to point it out. But since we are playing the assumption game on a technical forum, I’ll assume you are a keyboard commando that gets mad at people that like what you don’t like. I’ll go throw my EPR and Barrett’s down my driveway to make you happy! |
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Quoted: Lol on the thin skinned. I just know not to argue with mental people. You create a thread about the 6920 being updated from its current configuration, I say that for some needs I still prefer that configuration, and you somehow have a problem with that. Go have as many EPR’s as you want, I could care less. A basic carbine still has its role for some people. If they decide to stop making it that way, one can just build it. I know what the EPR trooper means. No need to point it out. But since we are playing the assumption game on a technical forum, I’ll assume you are a keyboard commando that gets mad at people that like what you don’t like. I’ll go throw my EPR and Barrett’s down my driveway to make you happy! View Quote You get butt hurt far too easily, if you believe my response to your post was “somehow have(ing) a problem with that.” Speaking of “mental”, there’s quite a bit of mental problems going on in your post. Accusing someone who disagrees with you, about something relatively benign, of being “mental” and mixing in a feeble attempt at making a subtle brag about having a Barrett? Definitely, some issues going on there. And you’re armed at work? I hope you retire before you come into contact with one of those “auditors” and you lose your pension over it. |
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Quoted: Exactly. I don’t need the extra rail space nor being FF for work duties. I’d rather have those feature for home/range. But apparently my preferences got some people upset. View Quote @den40 From an armorer / instructor POV, I definitely see the reasoning. It really just comes down to needs. And long guns take a beating in the racks or trunks. Not everyone needs a FF rail, especially at the distances we shoot (100-150 yards max, mostly 50 yards and in). And a lot of depts order simple carbines for a variety of reasons, but it's still the dominant set up at least in my area. There's a reason why other companies offer simple, non-FF versions for dept. purchase (SOLGW comes to mind and they are not fools). As long as there is a market, the std 6920 with FSB isn't going anywhere. We have a number of them in service ourselves with magpul SL handguards (LE-prefix... ;) ). But a number a good FF-rail options that are cheaper (BCM, Midwest, etc) are becoming more and more common, so it may change down the road. I slapped a Centurion FSB m-lok rail on one of our old 14.5" bushmaster uppers to show how easy it would be to upgrade the FSB rifles, but I don't think it will be an issued item. Cost is the problem. :( But that is a GREAT rail. |
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Quoted: You get butt hurt far too easily, if you believe my response to your post was “somehow have(ing) a problem with that.” Speaking of “mental”, there’s quite a bit of mental problems going on in your post. Accusing someone who disagrees with you, about something relatively benign, of being “mental” and mixing in a feeble attempt at making a subtle brag about having a Barrett? Definitely, some issues going on there. And you’re armed at work? I hope you retire before you come into contact with one of those “auditors” and you lose your pension over it. View Quote Thanks! Me too! Have a great day! |
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Quoted: @den40 From an armorer / instructor POV, I definitely see the reasoning. It really just comes down to needs. And long guns take a beating in the racks or trunks. Not everyone needs a FF rail, especially at the distances we shoot (100-150 yards max, mostly 50 yards and in). And a lot of depts order simple carbines for a variety of reasons, but it's still the dominant set up at least in my area. There's a reason why other companies offer simple, non-FF versions for dept. purchase (SOLGW comes to mind and they are not fools). As long as there is a market, the std 6920 with FSB isn't going anywhere. We have a number of them in service ourselves with magpul SL handguards (LE-prefix... ;) ). But a number a good FF-rail options that are cheaper (BCM, Midwest, etc) are becoming more and more common, so it may change down the road. I slapped a Centurion FSB m-lok rail on one of our old 14.5" bushmaster uppers to show how easy it would be to upgrade the FSB rifles, but I don't think it will be an issued item. Cost is the problem. :( But that is a GREAT rail. View Quote Great feedback, wally! You explained it better than I could! |
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Quoted: @den40 From an armorer / instructor POV, I definitely see the reasoning. It really just comes down to needs. And long guns take a beating in the racks or trunks. Not everyone needs a FF rail, especially at the distances we shoot (100-150 yards max, mostly 50 yards and in). And a lot of depts order simple carbines for a variety of reasons, but it's still the dominant set up at least in my area. There's a reason why other companies offer simple, non-FF versions for dept. purchase (SOLGW comes to mind and they are not fools). As long as there is a market, the std 6920 with FSB isn't going anywhere. We have a number of them in service ourselves with magpul SL handguards (LE-prefix... ;) ). But a number a good FF-rail options that are cheaper (BCM, Midwest, etc) are becoming more and more common, so it may change down the road. I slapped a Centurion FSB m-lok rail on one of our old 14.5" bushmaster uppers to show how easy it would be to upgrade the FSB rifles, but I don't think it will be an issued item. Cost is the problem. :( But that is a GREAT rail. View Quote I don’t necessarily disagree with any of your reasoning, but I have addressed all of the hurdles that you’ve outlined - cost, durability, needs, etc. - and have outlined how I believe those hurdles will be overcome, or necessitated, in a much shorter time horizon than the consensus. The trend line is already blatantly evident. As has been stated, correctly, the military will largely dictate the civilian market and the military is where the changes will occur. Law enforcement - as a whole - will be slower to upgrade, for a variety of reasons. Hell, the LAPD held onto revolvers and shotguns until two guys cleaned their clock. We’ll see who’s right in the coming years. |
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Quoted: I believe the civi 6920s are a buffer pool for the military contract overruns, and, as stated above, will always be around as long as the military is buying. View Quote That really doesn’t make sense as the only common part that a base 6920 has with an M4, that the free floated carbines they make doesn’t have, is the FSB. The lower, fcg, safety, buffer, rear sight, handguard, barrel, and front sling attach point are different between an M4 and a semi-only commercial variant. |
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Quoted: I don’t necessarily disagree with any of your reasoning, but I have addressed all of the hurdles that you’ve outlined - cost, durability, needs, etc. - and have outlined how I believe those hurdles will be overcome, or necessitated, in a much shorter time horizon than the consensus. The trend line is already blatantly evident. As has been stated, correctly, the military will largely dictate the civilian market and the military is where the changes will occur. Law enforcement - as a whole - will be slower to upgrade, for a variety of reasons. Hell, the LAPD held onto revolvers and shotguns until two guys cleaned their clock. We’ll see who’s right in the coming years. View Quote I think the lessons were learned in the 90s when it comes to preparedness / firepower for most agencies. Now the discussion comes down to cost / benefits. How many more dollars is it worth for a marginal increase in accuracy (in terms of what LE does with them)? That's 99% of my discussions when looking at new / updated equipment. I'd rather spend our limited money on lights, optics, slings, ammo, spare parts and training time. If Colt can put out a reliable FF rifle that betters the price of a 6920, then it won't be a problem. I think Indiana State Police issue Sig FF AR15s. At least that's what I saw when teaching at our state academy. Glock is still the big seller for LE b/c of price. Colt has a tendency to slap a FF rail on a rifle and then increase the price $300-400. |
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Quoted: I think the lessons were learned in the 90s when it comes to preparedness / firepower for most agencies. Now the discussion comes down to cost / benefits. How many more dollars is it worth for a marginal increase in accuracy (in terms of what LE does with them)? That's 99% of my discussions when looking at new / updated equipment. I'd rather spend our limited money on lights, optics, slings, ammo, spare parts and training time. If Colt can put out a reliable FF rifle that betters the price of a 6920, then it won't be a problem. I think Indiana State Police issue Sig FF AR15s. At least that's what I saw when teaching at our state academy. Glock is still the big seller for LE b/c of price. Colt has a tendency to slap a FF rail on a rifle and then increase the price $300-400. View Quote When Colt has to buy a rail from Centurion(EPR) or Geissele(FBP2) they are going to pass that cost along to the consumer. And, it’s not just the rail that’s increasing the cost of the models released with a FF rail. Those same models have a higher end aftermarket stock(CTR/B5) on them and Magpul Pro flip-ups. All that cost is passed on to us. Again, here’s how I believe a less expensive FF 6920 could be assembled and sold. OEM2, M4 stock, A2 grip, Colt trigger guard, one Gen2 Pmag and a Colt FF rail similar to what’s on the CM762/556. Basically, a Trooper without the $300 bump for the low end Centurion rail, without QDs, that nobody wants. The net cost increase, from an OEM1 based 6920 to an OEM2 based FF 6920, should be the cost for the Colt rail plus one more flip-up sight, minus the cost of the M4 handguard and the difference between the cost of the low profile gas block versus the FSB. Granted, I don’t know anything about the end cost of the Colt rail, but CR6920s are $849 on GB, so if the end cost it cuts the $300 bump in half, that could theoretically put what I’m describing, CR6920-FF?, at $999. You’re not going to get a “better” price. That’s unrealistic, when you’re getting a far superior platform than an M4 handguard. If my math is flawed or I’m missing something, point it out to me. |
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I’m not even sure who you are trying to convince what to in these threads.
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Quoted: I’m not even sure who you are trying to convince what to in these threads. View Quote Just thinking out loud, so to speak. I’d say things are pretty stale on the Colt front, when it took weeks to sell a relative handful of SOCOMs. I’m glad I found a NIB FBP2 to get a recent Colt fix. Now it looks like I’ll be waiting for a CM762 to get another fix, I hope it isn’t a long wait. It wasn’t my intention to distract from the excitement of whether someone got selector stops on their OEM or not. Or even which font of laser engraving they got. ETA: I did buy another OEM2 for $770 shipped, but that’s just parts. |
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