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And this tells all. What we have is a user who has an axe to grind with L3 which is obvious, cool I am all good with that...My guess is when you really find out the motives, you will find the reasons. It's too a point it's silly. BUUUUT, what is this ONE person basing his data on, technical papers, internal research, maybe worked for L3, got fired or is pissed at someone? Who knows, but no one ever wants to ask the hard questions at times. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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There's a user with a colorful vocabulary that is apparently not able to post in the NV forum any longer, who has suggested repeatedly that there is evidence that the L3 FILMLESS tubes degrade faster than (a) L3 states; and (b) L3 Thin Filmed tubes. For Statement A) What does it mean "faster than L3 states" - without a specifically stated criteria in which to judge, the statement doesn't hold water. Does L3 state that these tubes are 100% identical in life to thin filmed or thick filmed(ie statement B)? Did a salemen one time imply there is no difference between their filmed and unfilmed line at all? Is this poster saying the tubes will not reach the MTF of 10,000 hours - and if so, under what conditions? Realistically, statement A is vaccuous without something to actually hold it to. We need a quantifiable statement we can compare it to. For statement B? What we know about how image intensifier technology works, this statement is true. But it's worthless. When a tube has a film, it prevents some % of photons from reaching the photocathode. Since a tube gets "used up" based on how many photons the photocathode gobbles up (using a tube in high light uses it up faster in low light) - just by viture of letting more photons hit the Photocathode, the tube will degrade faster than a filmed tube. This statement alone also means nothing. There is a lot of nitpicking and weird statements going on in the last couple of threads and the vaccous and/or ambiguous nature of a lot of the statements demands we gotta go full on Year 1 Philosophy student and rigorously analyze statements like these. I'm not posting in the other thread because I would have to spend 10 hours unpacking the statements made over there. The real question that needs to be asked is: does the L3 Filmless tubes reach the 10,000 hours MTF standard , under whatever lighting conditions they state it must reach those hours? Like Sam said, the military or countless other users would have said something by now. I also think that the "issue" I attempted to pose was poorly worded, and that Deltastone did a better job of distilling the issue surrounding the rumor than I did, so thanks Deltastone for that. Sam's comment's in his post above that suggests "if there was a problem, you would have heard about it by now" is echoed by Vic via Vic's bolding of the final portion of the last sentence in Deltastone's quote, "the military or countless other users would have said something by now". Is this a fact? Possibly, probably even, but how would I know? Sam also states that he's used L3 tubes for 3 years and many hours with no degradation. Is this a fact? Probably. Certainly even, but how would I know? And what does Sam's use without degradation if 100% true and accurate in every sense of the word, say about Vic's or Sam's lack of knowledge about an overarching problem with L3's filmless tubes? I don't think it says anything. I admit my question was poorly worded, however I don't believe that anyone has clearly answered it. Sam & Vic- Are you aware of any information that would suggest that L3's Filmless tubes have or will have a problem reaching the MTF of 10,000 hours? A simple "no" without qualification, deflection, or response through analogous statement would be appreciated. Edit to add: You guys don't owe me anything. My personal interest is in seeing an indisputably clear response to the rumor referenced above, by someone that would know. That's all! Thanks. |
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From what I hear from some of my special operations friends, it seems the tubes last longer than the housing/linking/mounting parts.
I remember one mentioning his PVS-15s flickering pretty bad when breaching. If true I would think that's just a temp disruption from the internal contacts. A Ranger I met that said his unit has gone through a few sets of -31s due to physical breakage. All just word of mouth tho, no physical evidence. Other than a PVS-14 that got run over by an MRAP. Don't know if there is exaggeration or what have you. But tube failure seems pretty rare |
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@TNVC @TNVC_Sam No dog in the fight at all. I am interested in learning as much as possible regarding image intensification. There's a user with a colorful vocabulary that is apparently not able to post in the NV forum any longer, who has suggested repeatedly that there is evidence that the L3 FILMLESS tubes degrade faster than (a) L3 states; and (b) L3 Thin Filmed tubes. Sam & Vic- you guys comment in this thread that this is a rumor. Can you go a bit further and possibly put this rumor to bed as completely untrue? I think you would be doing a solid for the customers, past and future, of TNVC, as well as the members and freeloaders of this internet forum who read the NV stuff, if you could elaborate a bit, and possibly state, without reservation, that you are not aware of any information whatsoever that would suggest that the "rumor" (L3 filmless tubes degrade faster than (a) L3 states; and (b) L3 Thin Filmed tubes) is true. I apologize in advance if you've stated this previously. thanks View Quote |
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L3 Filmless are still OMNI bus 8 contract tubes and held to the same contractual standards, SOCOM JSOC have higher tube spec FOM minimums than regular Army/Navy but the 10,000 hour MTTF is still part of the contract and must be upheld, thus far nobody from the military or L3 or here at TNVC has seen anything like this.
Obviously and understandably L3 probably wouldn't go around telling everybody this happens if it were the case but the military would be up in arms about it and quite vocal, as would we. Entities that scam the military out of money and endanger the lives of our armed forces members are severely fined and often times prosecuted. |
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Somewhat related but I've also heard this claim: is it true that special operations units will rotate/swap tubes often? I'm sure that the schedule is something secretive, but I've always wondered how disposable NVD's are to units who use them primarily (nightly). View Quote Tubes are checked semi annually, if they are deemed to have reached a certain threshold or level of light damage they are replaced. NV Systems are horse traded to other units like Ranger Batt in order to get more funding allocated for newer and newer gear. But Nothing is just swapped out and thrown in the trash because it passed a certain hour mark, so they are not disposable items by any means. I hope this answers and or clears up anything, I figured I would get it straight from the horses mouth. |
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If it's a legit issue I would hope a member here (or a member who knows someone with the issue would get that dude to register and post) who's had that happen would have the nerve to jump in here and open up. I'd have to ASSume most people who've bought L3 filmless have been to this forum or at least knows about it. I for one would certainly like to know if it's an actual issue before I buy one. Knowing that up front may or may not sway the decision. Realistically, most of us don't hang on to these things for too long because we're always chasing the next thing. With that said, I put enough time on my NVD's that if buy an L3 UFWP and I see that occur when I was told it wouldn't, I would most definitely be telling anyone who'll listen about it.
Quoted: I agree that knowing WHY said user is posting the things he posts would be helpful. I also think that the "issue" I attempted to pose was poorly worded, and that Deltastone did a better job of distilling the issue surrounding the rumor than I did, so thanks Deltastone for that. Sam's comment's in his post above that suggests "if there was a problem, you would have heard about it by now" is echoed by Vic via Vic's bolding of the final portion of the last sentence in Deltastone's quote, "the military or countless other users would have said something by now". Is this a fact? Possibly, probably even, but how would I know? Sam also states that he's used L3 tubes for 3 years and many hours with no degradation. Is this a fact? Probably. Certainly even, but how would I know? And what does Sam's use without degradation if 100% true and accurate in every sense of the word, say about Vic's or Sam's lack of knowledge about an overarching problem with L3's filmless tubes? I don't think it says anything. I admit my question was poorly worded, however I don't believe that anyone has clearly answered it. Sam & Vic- Are you aware of any information that would suggest that L3's Filmless tubes have or will have a problem reaching the MTF of 10,000 hours? A simple "no" without qualification, deflection, or response through analogous statement would be appreciated. Edit to add: You guys don't owe me anything. My personal interest is in seeing an indisputably clear response to the rumor referenced above, by someone that would know. That's all! Thanks. View Quote |
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A lot of reading about stuff I don't understand.
basicly photonis tubes perform poorly? |
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A lot of reading about stuff I don't understand. basicly photonis tubes perform poorly? View Quote Photonis 4G Intens are bad ass and compete quite well with L3 Filmless in all but the lowest of low light. Echos are their line of tubes which didn’t meet Intens specs and are priced according to their lesser specs. |
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Not at all. Photonis 4G Intens are bad ass and compete quite well with L3 Filmless in all but the lowest of low light. Echos are their line of tubes which didn’t meet Intens specs and are priced according to their lesser specs. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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A lot of reading about stuff I don't understand. basicly photonis tubes perform poorly? Photonis 4G Intens are bad ass and compete quite well with L3 Filmless in all but the lowest of low light. Echos are their line of tubes which didn’t meet Intens specs and are priced according to their lesser specs. |
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The funny part is that there are lots of other and better ways to market the Echo tubes for the average user that would still be correct and applicable.
I just think the OOB stuff is foolish and won't even apply to most of the buyers who aren't LEO/Mil anyhow, unless that is the larger audience Photonis is specifically trying to reel in with those tubes. |
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I like the 4G INTENS. It took me some convincing at the onset, but once we tested them in various scenarios I thought they had a place. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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A lot of reading about stuff I don't understand. basicly photonis tubes perform poorly? Photonis 4G Intens are bad ass and compete quite well with L3 Filmless in all but the lowest of low light. Echos are their line of tubes which didn’t meet Intens specs and are priced according to their lesser specs. |
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Hey Sam and co., thanks for the answer to my “disposable” question above.
Semi-annual makes total sense for inspection. If the units really degraded so quickly, then don’t you think those specific outfits might switch more often haha? Your answer right there puts that to rest. Thanks again for the awesome answer to a semi-relevant question! |
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::sigh::
So I'd tried to keep out of these threads as much as possible, but I feel compelled to answer not just the immediate topics in this thread, but some of what's been floating around so to speak out there in various threads where "we'd do best to keep our noses out of." Respect y'all. First, to some clarifying points that have been "thrown out there." We do not exclusively carry L3 tubes/L3 products. I'm sure they'd be just as happy if we did, but we carry and sell Harris units as well, and we've even built and sold Photonis units before and products with Photonis tubes. Moreover, we have not not been carrying Photonis tubes as part of our TNV-series because we can't get them. As has already been mentioned, we're likely to start carrying Photonis-tubed devices in our NGI line very soon now. Beyond that, we've been approached and asked to carry Photonis before, and again, in some specific circumstances, we have supplied them. So the insinuation that we are somehow "in bed" with L3 is bunk--and if nothing else, you can tell that from many of our other product lines and classes, our social media and marketing presences, etc., it would be painfully obvious that we don't "pimp" L3 to the exclusion of all others, we provide customers with plenty of options for non-L3 products and direct competitors. If anyone appears by accident or design to be beholden to a particular vendor, it's the very respectful gentleman who identifies his "primary vendor" quite frequently, one that does primarily carry one brand of Gen. 3 tube, as well as being a vendor who just so happens to have "entered into a strategic partnership with Photonis." A vendor whom we also work with, whose products we carry, and think perfectly well of, and certainly mean no enmity towards. I am not the tube guru at TNVC. If you take a look at my title below, while I fall under the general umbrella of "technical staff" in many ways--I'm not a NOD-plumber, I'm not a technician, everything at TNVC I look at from an end-user standpoint. I have English degrees. We have technical folks around, but they aint me. Speaking of end-users, while it gets thrown around a lot, I'd like to reiterate a little bit about some of the backgrounds of folks at TNVC. Not only are most of us, and all of the "technical staff" at TNVC veteran professional end-users in their own right, at this time, and not all inclusively, along with our "day" jobs (night jobs?) the TNVC staff includes actively serving Reserve Component military servicemembers, including one of whom after a break in service is now going through selection to become a TACP, as well as an active SWAT officer. And no, this isn't "some kind of weird flex," my point being that we are not rich, fat-cat NVG salesmen who schwak hogs and coyotes as our primary entree into use of NV that spend our spare time making YouTube videos and thinking up new ways to screw customers out of more money--many of us have a very real, non-theoretical and vested interest in having the best gear possible and knowing how to use it and its advantages and disadvantages. Yeah, yeah, "TYFS" and all that bullshit. That's not the point. The point is that we're actively using this gear on a pretty regular basis, and in capacities beyond that of the "just trying to pay the mortgage." Certainly TNVC deals with and makes our best efforts to support the hobbyist and enthusiast community, and we'd all probably fall to a certain extent in that category as well, however our primary focus is and always has been support of the... wait for it: "Armed Professional." And this is why we specifically created a separate label for hunting-oriented night vision and thermal activities, our Night Goggles line, we are Tactical Night Vision Company. Not "The Night Vision Company," not "Hunting Night Vision Company," or "Hobby Night Vision Company," though we are occasionally "Teddy's Night Vision Company." Believe it, don't believe it, not a big deal--but many of you here in this forum know me from long before there was ever a "TNVC" in front of my username, and I still get calls from people surprised to reach me after reading a post from years ago, and I will say this--our main focus is, has always been, and continues to be professional end-users. Again, this is not to the exclusion of the commercial market--we want and do sell whatever we can, whether by law or by manufacturer's policy, but we nevertheless approach everything first from the standpoint of its value and utility to professional end-users. Moving on. Again, I'm fairly new at TNVC compared to some of the staff, but I share in general the opinions of my colleagues with regards to Photonis tubes, especially with respect to what they offer to end-users. I've used 'em. They're okay. You can see in the mostly dark with them, and nice ones can be great for high-light night vision photography. They're a lower-cost alternative to Gen. 3 tubes that many folks see a lot of value in, and great for many hobbyists. Had it been left at that, I doubt most anyone would have any complaints about that assertion or about the product. Is there some professional interest at higher levels due in part to OOB capabilities? Certainly, and we’ve acknowledged as much many, many times. But for better or for worse, to most commercial customers, this is a red herring. That being said, it was not anyone at TNVC who first made the claim here that Photonis's U.S. tubes were "nerfed." This was a statement made by an independent, well respected member of the Forum who is very frequently (and even in that same post) discussing both his direct relationships with Photonis, as well as his opinions that they specifically could offer users "an asymmetric advantage." Low-light performance. Notwithstanding the fact that we're talking about night vision to begin with, but "places where it gets dark": Basements and other interior structure areas, especially if the power has been cut/gone off. Not even talking secret squirrel shit here "they cut the power!" Everyone loves to talk SHTF. Power outage. Just because you're urban or suburban doesn't mean that you should scoff at low light performance. Speaking of--when I first started working for TNVC, I lived up in the mountains of West Virginia. I don't still, but I don't live in no "suburban area," either--the nearest gas station to me is 12 miles. I don't say that to say that I'm "the most remote" person out there that uses NV, I know some folks would scoff at that and call me "city boy," but being frank, I'm also not exactly in the middle of town, either. And the woods behind my house--the woods that I spend practically every night in just futzing around with night vision, can get pretty damn dark--as in without supplemental illumination, I wouldn't see shit without the COTI. Finally-- Much as we would like to, we don't have much say in what the military does or does not choose to buy for the guys (and gals) at the tip of the spear, though we do try our best to provide it when asked for it. Neither Vic nor Sam nor Augee nor anyone else from TNVC went to Fort Bragg to whisper in some VAS procurement guy's ear: "you should buy L3 Filmless..." Nor do we have any say in the military testing and acceptance of them, nor in generating any of the specs they request or the standards they're held to. Yet... AN/PVS-31As, GPNVG-18s, AN/PSQ-36B FGE... Am I saying that "just because the military uses it it's automatically the best"? No. But we're not exactly talking about guys that are prone to getting swept up in the marketing hype here, if anything, they're the ones that create the marketing hype. So, some folks on the internet might think they're "cucks" that are peddling shit, but they're still out there performing. ::shrug:: Again, believe me, don't believe me, but there it is, at least from where I stand. ~Augee |
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From what I hear from some of my special operations friends, it seems the tubes last longer than the housing/linking/mounting parts. I remember one mentioning his PVS-15s flickering pretty bad when breaching. If true I would think that's just a temp disruption from the internal contacts. A Ranger I met that said his unit has gone through a few sets of -31s due to physical breakage. All just word of mouth tho, no physical evidence. Other than a PVS-14 that got run over by an MRAP. Don't know if there is exaggeration or what have you. But tube failure seems pretty rare View Quote |
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Fantastic post @Augee
*Edit to add: I can see how these misconceptions happen especially since truthfully TNVC has the top dog name in the NVD community. Example, I own some cool stuff but I'm by no means rich, however, people who learn I have these toys all think I'm mr fancy pants silverspoon. Far from it |
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https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/348028/FB_IMG_1510867021816_jpg-845634.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/348028/FB_IMG_1517697807770_jpg-845635.JPG View Quote But they’re light and have great optics, and they’ve got those terrible “overcooked” L3 UF WP tubes. ~Augee |
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From what I hear from some of my special operations friends, it seems the tubes last longer than the housing/linking/mounting parts. I remember one mentioning his PVS-15s flickering pretty bad when breaching. If true I would think that's just a temp disruption from the internal contacts. A Ranger I met that said his unit has gone through a few sets of -31s due to physical breakage. All just word of mouth tho, no physical evidence. Other than a PVS-14 that got run over by an MRAP. Don't know if there is exaggeration or what have you. But tube failure seems pretty rare |
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From what I hear from some of my special operations friends, it seems the tubes last longer than the housing/linking/mounting parts. I remember one mentioning his PVS-15s flickering pretty bad when breaching. If true I would think that's just a temp disruption from the internal contacts. A Ranger I met that said his unit has gone through a few sets of -31s due to physical breakage. All just word of mouth tho, no physical evidence. Other than a PVS-14 that got run over by an MRAP. Don't know if there is exaggeration or what have you. But tube failure seems pretty rare |
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About who's telling the truth? It's interesting how upset someone is as we've been reporting Photonis tubes work for almost 2 years. Now that someone and their distributor start carrying this line just a few months ago, we see repeated posts on this forum over and over again, Photonis contacted at Shot Show, emails, etc. Funny they never came around 2 years ago when all the Photonis was being talked about. All because we have been posting for a long time about the inconsistency's of OOB, and cosmetics truths and the sensitivity aspects line = we do not like Photonis from some who want you to believe that because their distributor is now carrying it and that Harris sole distributorship is now over. As stated, when all the glass work (which IS being worked on) and OOB work to improve sensitivity was being talked about over a year ago, these same folks were NOT even around talking about this cool tech, no phone calls to Photonis, constant thread barrage talking the same thing on tech forums, EE, etc. Interesting... Deltastone, "Photonis's verbiage in the last email is very precise" yes it was when they also added, ONLY Military should have this tech. So much for our LE Depts. across America. Maybe they should clarify that as well, because I have been bombed with contacts from LE types saying WTF is Photonis talking about? Like I said, it's like the Recoil Magazine and MP7 fiasco, that only certain people be allowed to own them. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The problem is who is telling the truth??? Reading the Photonis emails and that discussion, and what TNVC is posting above, it's really clear both parties are talking about two different things. Photonis's verbiage in the last email is very precise in saying "Out of band detection" - every single tube that was posted above would, technically, be able to detect OOB. You'd see if someone was using it. In their earlier comments, they do say they will perform out of band same as the Intens, but don't really give a very clear answer as to what that means. It's not as clear cut and dry slam dunk, because the exact statement we would be looking for is "The Echo tubes have the exact same sensitivity to OOB spectrums as the Intens tubes do" and anything short of that is somewhat ambiguous. But TNVC's testing showed that some of these tubes are not usuable out of band. If I wanted to use an illuminator or pointer? It wouldn't work well for me as a user. But down range? I can likely detect someone using it. This would make Photonis's last email statement true - we can detect OOB. If you want it in the simplest terms, think of it like IR LED flashlights. With the naked eye there is no way we could use one to light our way around. But down range of one we could detect it with the naked eye. I'm not too concerned with the OOB capabilities personally. I'm all for the tube performance because I've been living in a world where the commercially available options have been Katod's and Harders, or Photonis for "good enough." Seeing a set of Echo tubes side by side some ITT Everests and some L3 Filmless and the fact they were competitive enough to make me order a batch of them? That is all I need. Stateside they are even cheaper than what I'm getting them for and if you aren't looking to get the very best of the best? These seem like the next choice. You are either buying an L3 Filmless God Tube with mind blowing specs, or you are probably grabbing an Echo and saving some cash. This seems like an accurate summary of the current state of the tube market and what a buyer should expect. Deltastone, "Photonis's verbiage in the last email is very precise" yes it was when they also added, ONLY Military should have this tech. So much for our LE Depts. across America. Maybe they should clarify that as well, because I have been bombed with contacts from LE types saying WTF is Photonis talking about? Like I said, it's like the Recoil Magazine and MP7 fiasco, that only certain people be allowed to own them. |
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Quit trying to exit the truck like Rambo dumbass!
I may or may not have absolutely shattered a couple-ish 14s doing exactly that. |
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i prefer 15 optics honestly .......thus...... https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-9j9zreeu/images/stencil/608x608/products/55442/137268/009__02143.1517857354.jpg?c=2 View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: The most bomb-proof BNVD housings out there 31s are not, hahaha. But they’re light and have great optics, and they’ve got those terrible “overcooked” L3 UF WP tubes. ~Augee https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-9j9zreeu/images/stencil/608x608/products/55442/137268/009__02143.1517857354.jpg?c=2 |
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Why should LE types have more capability than any other civilian? Perhaps you should say everyone so as to avoid the Recoil MP7 fiasco View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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The problem is who is telling the truth??? Reading the Photonis emails and that discussion, and what TNVC is posting above, it's really clear both parties are talking about two different things. Photonis's verbiage in the last email is very precise in saying "Out of band detection" - every single tube that was posted above would, technically, be able to detect OOB. You'd see if someone was using it. In their earlier comments, they do say they will perform out of band same as the Intens, but don't really give a very clear answer as to what that means. It's not as clear cut and dry slam dunk, because the exact statement we would be looking for is "The Echo tubes have the exact same sensitivity to OOB spectrums as the Intens tubes do" and anything short of that is somewhat ambiguous. But TNVC's testing showed that some of these tubes are not usuable out of band. If I wanted to use an illuminator or pointer? It wouldn't work well for me as a user. But down range? I can likely detect someone using it. This would make Photonis's last email statement true - we can detect OOB. If you want it in the simplest terms, think of it like IR LED flashlights. With the naked eye there is no way we could use one to light our way around. But down range of one we could detect it with the naked eye. I'm not too concerned with the OOB capabilities personally. I'm all for the tube performance because I've been living in a world where the commercially available options have been Katod's and Harders, or Photonis for "good enough." Seeing a set of Echo tubes side by side some ITT Everests and some L3 Filmless and the fact they were competitive enough to make me order a batch of them? That is all I need. Stateside they are even cheaper than what I'm getting them for and if you aren't looking to get the very best of the best? These seem like the next choice. You are either buying an L3 Filmless God Tube with mind blowing specs, or you are probably grabbing an Echo and saving some cash. This seems like an accurate summary of the current state of the tube market and what a buyer should expect. Deltastone, "Photonis's verbiage in the last email is very precise" yes it was when they also added, ONLY Military should have this tech. So much for our LE Depts. across America. Maybe they should clarify that as well, because I have been bombed with contacts from LE types saying WTF is Photonis talking about? Like I said, it's like the Recoil Magazine and MP7 fiasco, that only certain people be allowed to own them. |
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Sorry some items our suppliers restrict and if we dont follow their rules, we cannot sell. Pannos, PVS-31's etc. come to mind. Please don't derail this thread. You can start another thread on restricted gear. This also has been long talked about. As for the laser stuff, plenty of Russian, Chinese HP lasers out there and DIY diodes etc.
Edit, In before , "well other places may sell them". Yep some sell used, and other 2nd hand sub dealers etc. |
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Just adding this in here. The OOB capabilities obviously have yet to be dialed in performance and hardware wise... as far as I'm concerned, it might as well not exist. The biggest role I see for those echo tubes are LEO use. A lot of us buy our own kit, and echos present a economic (cops are poor) alternative to give yourself some NV capability. Additionally, the mixed light performance is excellent... less blooming, no streaking, etc. Great in urban/suburban environments. Fine, a lot of you have no use for NV when you can get by without it, but cops definitely do. I run an echo as a daily driver at work, because it works... better than my pride and joy L3WP in some applications, and it was cheaper so I dont feel as paranoid about taking wearing it on my head to run through the bushes or to smash a house on a warrant. Its just too bad people want to market these disingenuously, as the really do have a legitimate role, but there is definitely enough info out there if you do your due diligence.
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We are all sitting here arguing which tube is better than the other.
Meanwhile I'm over here and I'm like I cant see shit in the dark and anything is better than nothing so I'll take what my budget can allow me. I got a tnv14 years ago and have nothing but good things to say. When money allows I'll buy again and buy duals. |
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Just adding this in here. The OOB capabilities obviously have yet to be dialed in performance and hardware wise... as far as I'm concerned, it might as well not exist. The biggest role I see for those echo tubes are LEO use. A lot of us buy our own kit, and echos present a economic (cops are poor) alternative to give yourself some NV capability. Additionally, the mixed light performance is excellent... less blooming, no streaking, etc. Great in urban/suburban environments. Fine, a lot of you have no use for NV when you can get by without it, but cops definitely do. I run an echo as a daily driver at work, because it works... better than my pride and joy L3WP in some applications, and it was cheaper so I dont feel as paranoid about taking wearing it on my head to run through the bushes or to smash a house on a warrant. Its just too bad people want to market these disingenuously, as the really do have a legitimate role, but there is definitely enough info out there if you do your due diligence. View Quote Will NGI carry these? They may as I keep saying, but we will continue to broadcast what gear does and does not do. I LIKE 4G INTENS but dont like the low light performance of the Echo along with Zone 1 blemishes with no real blem restrictions. I get the poor guy LEO issues and many pull outta their own purse. Also should never fear a WP unit, we've yet to see any tube damage from crashing warrant work along with running. More dings in housings than anything else. In closing, know this Brother, we ARE continuing our OOB band work to assist LEO's and others as we understand and hope to rectify and improve some of the issues. We wont be silenced with threats, secret emails and other means to silence our commitment to testing all gear. Edit...Also thank your for what you do. |
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Got damn, I feel like I just read the script to a soap opera...
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Got damn, I feel like I just read the script to a soap opera... View Quote Yep norbs79, you can continue to call us a Liar, it never stops with you. READ WHAT I WROTE, but you refuse to see the details of the tuning aspects of the Echo tubes AND the lasers! You claim to be a tech guy but you conveniently glossed over the data. You were around over a year ago on all the Photonis talks and all the testing? God forbid someone said this to your fav vendor? They'd be hung out to dry. But they couldn't because they were NOT selling Photonis except when their main distributor offered them just a few months ago. I lost count the number of folks who don't post here any longer because of this. Tx_Zen said it best HERE. "Lot of good people and info , but even I noticed what seemed like constant snipes against L3 and constant comments about the people that buy them. To me it seemed like it was a self imposed axe to grind" And that is when someone started selling Photonis very recently. Funny how that all works now. We honored what our laser manufactures told us NOT to publish pictures. Why don't you ask your favorite vendor if all those private emails and troll insulting emails from Photonis were allowed on the EE and elsewhere? Go ahead, ask him, please do but I know you won't. Sorry but we abide by what the OEM's ask us not to do.... Mr Moderator, you can close this thread now at your leisure or move it to our tech forum we have spent enough time hearing "someone" and accusations and clog up this board. We will continue our testing of all gear no matter if the OEM's like it or not along with their distributors and 3rd party dealers. This community has a right to always know. Thank you. |
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Vic,
I don’t have a favorite “vendor”, and I’ve never owned a Photonis tube, and that’s a fact. What I can tell you is that I am a good old country boy construction worker with a lower middle class income. I understand a lot about night vision tech only because it’s my biggest interest outside of my career. I’m not your, or anyone else’s enemy here. Honestly, I’d love to have a conversation with you sometime. |
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Vic, I don’t have a favorite “vendor”, and I’ve never owned a Photonis tube, and that’s a fact. What I can tell you is that I am a good old country boy construction worker with a lower middle class income. I understand a lot about night vision tech only because it’s my biggest interest outside of my career. I’m not your, or anyone else’s enemy here. Honestly, I’d love to have a conversation with you sometime. View Quote |
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@Lowdown3 Have you done any OOB testing with echo tubes? I would love to see some results. Vic says he did but hasn’t shown so much as even a single picture, I can’t take his word anymore than I can take the Photonis sales reps word when I don’t know either one of them from Adam. I’m not trying to shit on anybody I’d just love to see some proof. I would be more than willing to build a OOB IR illuminator and donate it if somebody would be willing to do some honest testing and provide honest results. View Quote I (WE) have been working with Photonis tubes for well over a year now. Laser dif powers, laser tuning, glass frequency work, etc along with a major glass manufacture. Then all of a sudden when your prime Vendor gets word from his Distributor to sell cheap Echo tubes just a few months ago which he never even tested , let alone who doesn't even know Sentinel Goggles even articulate, we see this nonsense over the last few months and also back handed terrible comments about us at Shot Shot to Photonis etc. All this from a johnny come lately to sell cheap for the almighty dollar sign. You and he may NOT think it's very important about the OOB subject matter, but in our arena, it's always been to our clientele, but I digress. Reading is fundamental, so REALLY re-read what I said about the Echo OOB testing. On the other side, we understand why he won't read, they may be still trying to understand how Sentinels do not articulate and it's better to throw off the radar with innuendos. No innuendos here, PERIOD. Edit red... |
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Quoted: All good, you may want to look around with EVERY innuendo your other Vendor has spilled around here all by hiding under I respect staff, blah, blah blah all the while posting private emails from Photonis he never should have, especially the ones call us Trolls along with all his EE posts hiding under innuendos. He did the same thing with Angelo from FLIR and started to do the same thing with the new FLIR Rep. There IS something called honor, and when my 3 major laser manufacturers tell me NOT to post any OOB pics (it is sensitive tech to them) with their lasers I HONOR THAT! Make sense??? I know the select peanut gallery (one banned member who your Vendor pimped) takes that for lying. I (WE) have been working with Photonis tubes for well over a year now. Laser dif powers, laser tuning, glass frequency work, etc along with a major glass manufacture. Then all of a sudden when your prime Vendor gets word from his Distributor to sell check Echo tubes which he never even tested , let alone who doesn't even know Sentinel Goggles even articulate, we see this nonsense over the last few months and also back handed terrible comments about us at Shot Shot to Photonis etc. All this from a johnny come lately to sell cheap for the almighty dollar sign. You and he may NOT think it's very important about the OOB subject matter, but in our arena, it always been, but I digress. Reading is fundamental, so REALLY re-read what I said about the Echo OOB testing. On the other side, we understand why he won't read, they may be still trying to understand how Sentinels do not articulate and it's better to throw off the radar with innuendos. No innuendos here, PERIOD. Edit red... View Quote |
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Quoted:
I think some independent testing would put this dilemma to bed once and for all. I’m all for it because I’m a nerd when it comes to the tech side of this stuff. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: All good, you may want to look around with EVERY innuendo your other Vendor has spilled around here all by hiding under I respect staff, blah, blah blah all the while posting private emails from Photonis he never should have, especially the ones call us Trolls along with all his EE posts hiding under innuendos. He did the same thing with Angelo from FLIR and started to do the same thing with the new FLIR Rep. There IS something called honor, and when my 3 major laser manufacturers tell me NOT to post any OOB pics (it is sensitive tech to them) with their lasers I HONOR THAT! Make sense??? I know the select peanut gallery (one banned member who your Vendor pimped) takes that for lying. I (WE) have been working with Photonis tubes for well over a year now. Laser dif powers, laser tuning, glass frequency work, etc along with a major glass manufacture. Then all of a sudden when your prime Vendor gets word from his Distributor to sell check Echo tubes which he never even tested , let alone who doesn't even know Sentinel Goggles even articulate, we see this nonsense over the last few months and also back handed terrible comments about us at Shot Shot to Photonis etc. All this from a johnny come lately to sell cheap for the almighty dollar sign. You and he may NOT think it's very important about the OOB subject matter, but in our arena, it always been, but I digress. Reading is fundamental, so REALLY re-read what I said about the Echo OOB testing. On the other side, we understand why he won't read, they may be still trying to understand how Sentinels do not articulate and it's better to throw off the radar with innuendos. No innuendos here, PERIOD. Edit red... Edit, please do ask your Vendor about all those confidential emails, public inneundo's etc. Please do call me out on that too. |
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Quoted: Noticed how you didn't include Vic was lying stuff...All good but RE-READ what I wrote about the testing results. That's the rub your favorite Vendor and you seem to want to ignore of what worked and what didn't along with the bash L3 crowd. He and you want the world to believe all or nothing. There is MANY more variables in OOB laser field work. Much work needs to be done in this arena, and Photonis knows this as well, count on it and the work we're doing will assist with their tubes and your vendors sales numbers, well at least to his distributor. Edit, please do ask your Vendor about all those confidential emails, public inneundo's etc. Please do call me out on that too. View Quote |
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Quoted: I think some independent testing would put this dilemma to bed once and for all. I'm all for it because I'm a nerd when it comes to the tech side of this stuff. View Quote The primary area where OOB technology is specifically of use is actually Domestic Policing. This is because police, unlike most other groups, may have to develop a capability to go up against suspects using Gen3 or other night vision technology at night, and within a confined structure. It's not well known but I was probably the first person to note the significance of the extended bands in Photonis products back around 2013 though if you go looking, you can probably work out how long I've been talking about Out Of Band on this forum to figure out just when I started from my posts and there's still stuff I know from back then that I've been asked not to reveal publicly by various people, whether controlled or not. Photonis have known about the Out Of Band since the development of the <redacted> photocathode, and the subsequently improved <redacted> photocathode, which are both 4G Photocathodes. TNVC was at the forefront of OOB development since they had early access to the information necessary to let them develop this technology further, and their manufacturing partners would have subsequently also gained not only early access to the technology, but also the additional time necessary to develop it. Sure, there's a lot of information out there, but it's a bit like an iceberg and even now, only the tip is exposed and there are practical limits to what people are going to talk about. TNVC are probably the only company in the US that I know of that is dedicated to developing technology and tactics specifically for non-military police operations so they really are experts. You can learn a lot from what Vic does say though. Especially when he posts specifics. Understanding those specifics is critical though. Sometimes Vic says something about OOB that doesn't make sense, such as the difference between ECHOs and INTENS. But he's correct in his assertions even if the reasons for that are not publicly discussed. OOB technology is complicated. It's not just about seeing light that no one else can see - it's not quite that simple. It's about leveraging a significant spectral advantage in a way that maintains that advantage over a broad range of applications such that the advantage is maintained by the operator against as many objectives as possible. Leveraged correctly, though, it does provide an asymmetric advantage to the operator. And, on the other side, it provides militarily useful capabilities as well, that even translate directly into the field. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a few PVS-13's popping up based on these new tubes. So as a result, no one can really reveal any actual specific capabilities of the technology and even the photographs I released were cleared for uncontrolled dissemination were taken from early lab experiments over 4 years ago. But independent testing isn't really required even without knowing the specifics. Multiple laser companies aren't going to invest resources into developing products in this area without there being a needed product at the end of the development cycle. Anyway, some things I still don't know and even I can't be told, but I can read between the lines pretty well and I can mention that there are some big problems with today's lens technology with respect to actual tactical use of OOB systems, and I know that work is proceeding in this area. It's ironic that I'll probably only learn of this at the same time you do. Sorry I can't be more open than this in explaining. There's even quite a lot of stuff that Vic doesn't and probably can't tell me, and while I can guess what he's doing based on watching his shadows on the floor when he posts things to this forum, and unfortunately, even I can't sometimes pick out what he says in those posts and elaborate. But I can confirm that Vic and TNVC were at the very forefront of Photonis-related OOB technology research. And it's not something they picked up from their manufacturers. It's something they took back to them. I hope Vic doesn't mind me mentioning some of the past around this technology. All I can say is that even I pay close attention when he mentions specific outcomes of some of the technology. I wouldn't so much say that there's gold in this thread - It's more like unobtanium. Though I will correct Vic on one non-technical comment. Photonis isn't actually dumping it's tubes and have nothing to gain by doing so - the availability of lower-cost tubes has everything to do with yields. I can imagine Harris might start dumping tubes because AFAIK they don't have big contracts at the moment, so if they have inventory they need a way to quit it, but both L3 and Photonis have big contracts for high-spec tubes to multiple government buyers. The US is just benefitting from the extra-yield tubes that come with that kind of supply volume and so INTENS are well priced. But Echo's are sub-yield, so there's no point discarding them. Personally, I think the pricing for them is about right and you get what you pay for. But no one is actually dumping at the moment. If they do, it will become a buyer's market. :) Anyway, there's still room for competition to take hold. David. |
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Quoted:
Your amount of absurdity is somewhat impressive. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Noticed how you didn't include Vic was lying stuff...All good but RE-READ what I wrote about the testing results. That's the rub your favorite Vendor and you seem to want to ignore of what worked and what didn't along with the bash L3 crowd. He and you want the world to believe all or nothing. There is MANY more variables in OOB laser field work. Much work needs to be done in this arena, and Photonis knows this as well, count on it and the work we're doing will assist with their tubes and your vendors sales numbers, well at least to his distributor. Edit, please do ask your Vendor about all those confidential emails, public inneundo's etc. Please do call me out on that too. |
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CJ, thank you for clarification on the tube allotment and distribution. You are very correct on the OOB technology, there can be many variables. We will have a newer batch of Echo and 4G tubes in the very new future. It's funny our OOB test results are not an end all knock on the Echo tubes or the 4G INTENS (like the 4G a lot) in that fashion even though some take it as a threat to their sales, (if they would even look and really read the past test results). Assured I will keep in contact with Photonis on our continued testing once we get the next level of support components worked out. I had a great conversation with them last week and NO I will not discuss the details on-line to one up "someone".
Edit, if I get any more "OK's" I will post more results of some other particulars and "tubes" from "other" sources. But very cool tech to work on. |
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I think whats really frustrating about this whole thing is some of us have inside knowledge that would explain the OP's test results but can't talk about it without either 1) speaking informally so it's kind of worthless or 2) violating an NDA / pissing off someone you really don't want to since it's not worth it to win an internet fight.
It's entirely possibly all the current Echo tubes going forward will meet the full OOB / 4G specs and what not. That does not mean it has always been true, and depending on how long ago those OOB tests were done, could also explain the results without either party being wrong on the original claim. Although from reading the threads one party is wrong because a lot of claims and statements they made past the OOB discussion have been wrong, inflamatory, or just petty and the other has kept their posture - so, you know, that tells a bit. Whats great is I'm a customer of neither party of the debate, since I really can't be, so I have no direct allegiances or relationships that could influence my opinion on the argument. I get to claim I'm strictly a third party observer with no skin in the game so my opinion on this is valued higher than anyone who has bought or talked with either before. It's almost cheating. CJ's in the same boat and it's worth noting what thread he picked to hang out in as well But speaking purely from the outside observer position - seems almost irrational for so many people to get bent out of shape over capabilities of a tube they could not employ. There ain't OOB shit on the market, there won't be for awhile, and the glass isn't even optimized for it so at best all you are getting is a pointer. The real success story should be how Photonis's commercial tubes are pretty much destroying Harris tubes, and thats a win for everybody (domestic = more competition and cheaper tubes, international = good tubes for reasonable prices). |
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Quoted:
I think whats really frustrating about this whole thing is some of us have inside knowledge that would explain the OP's test results but can't talk about it without either 1) speaking informally so it's kind of worthless or 2) violating an NDA / pissing off someone you really don't want to since it's not worth it to win an internet fight. It's entirely possibly all the current Echo tubes going forward will meet the full OOB / 4G specs and what not. That does not mean it has always been true, and depending on how long ago those OOB tests were done, could also explain the results without either party being wrong on the original claim. Although from reading the threads one party is wrong because a lot of claims and statements they made past the OOB discussion have been wrong, inflamatory, or just petty and the other has kept their posture - so, you know, that tells a bit. Don't know, the Echo tubes where from mid last year. I just simply posted results (folks need to really see what was in the results). Been working OOB for awhile now and the other vendor just started selling these just a few months ago back in December and now we see a thread calling us liars and we somehow got people banned who disagreed with us? That was the "johnny come lately" commet that was cherry picked from the Vendor saying he's been in business for 25 years stuff we clearly were referring to the Echo tube sales when he started them... See how this all works? A few folks are upset because we spoke the truth about our test results because it did not match their distributors quest? Yes, one vendor with an internet fight with fanboys and private emails from Photonis the Vendor was NEVER supposed to publish. See no one on his thresd wants to ask him that...Yes we got a call from Photonis on the said vendors thread based on the other Vendors emails to them with the private emails not telling the whole story. We explained to Photonis our testing and they understood the work we're doing. What I wont do is publish a play by play interview questioner posting on line of our private conversation. It's called "confidentiality". Some rather think we're not telling the truth in these instances but we will never violate that. So the others can accuse, all good. Whats great is I'm a customer of neither party of the debate, since I really can't be, so I have no direct allegiances or relationships that could influence my opinion on the argument. I get to claim I'm strictly a third party observer with no skin in the game so my opinion on this is valued higher than anyone who has bought or talked with either before. It's almost cheating. CJ's in the same boat and it's worth noting what thread he picked to hang out in as well I won't speak for CJ, but my guess if he posted any technical material in the other TNVC bash thread he would get ridiculed as a TNVC "fanboy". Funny so MANY around here dont post anymore because of them getting ridiculed. Heck it was so bad in the past, some of our customers got accused of being TNVC employees and we got calls on it from the staff to prove they were not! But it's interesting the other vendors "fanboys" don't get ridiculed and it's now okay for them to post and bash us? Heck just recently it was uncovered a user on a PM campaign who was actually writing any TNVC potential customers how bad we were with some interesting accusations. Pretty bad stuff. Wonder who he was working with? Yes I have the PM's from him and other customers who were victim of all this. I am sure we will be called liars for that and we got someone banned... But speaking purely from the outside observer position - seems almost irrational for so many people to get bent out of shape over capabilities of a tube they could not employ. There ain't OOB shit on the market, there won't be for awhile, and the glass isn't even optimized for it so at best all you are getting is a pointer. The real success story should be how Photonis's commercial tubes are pretty much destroying Harris tubes, and thats a win for everybody (domestic = more competition and cheaper tubes, international = good tubes for reasonable prices). Bent outta shape just because we posted our results and so many glossed over what the Echo tubes did. One Vendor extremely worried with his distributor on our results? Crazy, if they would REALLY read what the results were. And as you mentioned about the glass aspects, we are working the glass aspects and they should be very happy we hope to improve the overall frequency spectrums that will sell more systems based on increased capabilities. View Quote |
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I won't speak for CJ, but my guess if he posted any technical material in the other TNVC bash thread he would get ridiculed as a TNVC "fanboy". View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
I won't speak for CJ, but my guess if he posted any technical material in the other TNVC bash thread he would get ridiculed as a TNVC "fanboy". Quoted:
Bent outta shape just because we posted our results and so many glossed over what the Echo tubes did. One Vendor extremely worried with his distributor on our results? Best part is I don't suspect anyone to be posting any results from OOB Laser testing for awhile since I don't think that highly reputable vendor that holds himself to the highest of standards has the clout necessary to get a MAWL CLAD on loan. Since, you know, they would have posted the photos already or stated they saw it with their own two eyes. Quoted: Good comments on the subject matter, mine in red above. Thanks for the post. |
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Seems a little weird that he would be called a fanboy despite not being a customer, but all the other posters going "Wow, [this guy] speaks the truther the other salesman is garbage, I bought from [this guy] already before and I'm happy" couldn't possibly be a fanboy And it's funny because they don't need to be. The Echo tubes are thousand cheaper than the Harris tubes in a bino configuration and basically just as good? Say no more, who do I make the cheque out to? Best part is I don't suspect anyone to be posting any results from OOB Laser testing for awhile since I don't think that highly reputable vendor that holds himself to the highest of standards has the clout necessary to get a MAWL CLAD on loan. Since, you know, they would have posted the photos already or stated they saw it with their own two eyes. No problem <3 View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
I won't speak for CJ, but my guess if he posted any technical material in the other TNVC bash thread he would get ridiculed as a TNVC "fanboy". Quoted:
Bent outta shape just because we posted our results and so many glossed over what the Echo tubes did. One Vendor extremely worried with his distributor on our results? Best part is I don't suspect anyone to be posting any results from OOB Laser testing for awhile since I don't think that highly reputable vendor that holds himself to the highest of standards has the clout necessary to get a MAWL CLAD on loan. Since, you know, they would have posted the photos already or stated they saw it with their own two eyes. Quoted: Good comments on the subject matter, mine in red above. Thanks for the post. Funny part is, as I've said this in the past (no I'm not patting myself on the back, I did it for the love of the technology)...I started the ARFCOM NV Forum and I wonder where the said Vendor and his fanboys would be if I didn't beg Sr. Site Staff and Ed Sr. to install something called the Nightvision Forum? Edit, I cannot announce brandings with any of the 3 OOB laser system manufacturers used in the test. Once again, I know some will hold this against us but like posting private emails, phone calls and interenet posting of interviews, to one up a company and someone etc., I will not do this. |
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