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Posted: 6/23/2022 10:37:59 AM EDT
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/20-843_7j80.pdf

Did not read it thoroughly but it was written by Thomas and ruled against New York.

Today is Thomas's birthday (and mine too!). Nice birthday present!
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 10:42:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveM4P99] [#1]
Preliminary reports seem to suggest it is text history and tradition... Rejecting the two step approach that lower courts have been using.

So better than strict scrutiny. Opening the door to challenging everything New York has done.

Nationwide shall issue at least. Even in NYC.

fuck. yes.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 10:48:39 AM EDT
[#2]
Spank.

But doesn’t go far enough .. denial of people rights should be automatic life in jail for theses people also..
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 10:50:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveM4P99] [#3]
I'm guessing in a state like New York where the permits are already carry permits albeit with restrictions...this means those restrictions are basically gone???

I don't have restricted carry permit but many people I know do.

In a state like New Jersey where they don't even issue carry permits I'm assuming people will have to reapply for a carry permit but they cannot be denied?
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 10:52:55 AM EDT
[#4]
Strict Scrutiny

Happy Birthday Justice Thomas!!

Fuck You All Commie Scum!
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 10:55:12 AM EDT
[#5]
does this effectively make Ny "Shall Issue" at this point? Or is it more nuanced?
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 10:55:49 AM EDT
[#6]
So we can carry now, right?


Link Posted: 6/23/2022 10:56:08 AM EDT
[#7]
Hochul is giving a press conference right now promising to add all kinds of new rules to the pistol permit system. Shocker
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:00:21 AM EDT
[#8]
This should blow out the SAFE act, and does that mean we have constitutional carry now? Need someone smarter than me to break this down.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:00:28 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By forensicgun:
Hochul is giving a press conference right now promising to add all kinds of new rules to the pistol permit system. Shocker
View Quote
Not surprised at all and fully expected it. They can make the "objective" licensing rules as onerous (and maybe expensive) as possible. Also create so many "no carry" zones that you are navigating a minefield if you travel anywhere with a firearm. Probably make it a felony to violate any of those zones too such that you lose your rights for life.

I turned 60 today and I seriously doubt I will see a resolution in my lifetime.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:01:08 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fighter443:
So we can carry now, right?


View Quote


If you have a restricted "carry" permit...yes. You can now carry.

That's what this decision is saying...but I'm no lawyer. So...
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:01:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: garr] [#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By forensicgun:
Hochul is giving a press conference right now promising to add all kinds of new rules to the pistol permit system. Shocker
View Quote


The Commie Slut is just a mumbling fool, Strict Scrutiny & Rejecting the two step approach bullshit really screwed up all the commie infringements, Justice Thomas really came through here. It seems like this ruling killed UnSafe also!

Now lets see what it is going to take to prevent the NY commies from showing their true colors & just ignoring SCOTUS?
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:03:47 AM EDT
[#12]
"Nothing in the Second Amendment’s text draws a home/public distinction with respect to the right to keep and bear arms, and the definition of “bear” naturally encompasses public carry. Moreover, the Second Amendment guarantees an “individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation,” id., at 592, and confrontation can surely take place outside the home" -Thomas
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:07:11 AM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:10:19 AM EDT
[#14]
Also thank you President Trump!
The vote was 6 to 3.
Think how this would have went if Hildabeast had replaced those SCOTUS seats.

Another face slap to the nevertrumpers!
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:11:33 AM EDT
[#15]
So if they make the pistol permit process have more rules, wouldn't that filter over to buying semi-autos when that law kicks in (if it even can now )
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:14:41 AM EDT
[#16]
Wow...there goes Hochuls idea of making everywhere a restricted place...

But expanding the category of

“sensitive places” simply to all places of public congregation

that are not isolated from law enforcement defines the cat-

egory of “sensitive places” far too broadly. Respondents’ ar-
gument would in effect exempt cities from the Second
Amendment and would eviscerate the general right to pub-
licly carry arms for self-defense that we discuss in detail
below. See Part III–B, infra. Put simply, there is no his-
torical basis for New York to effectively declare the island
of Manhattan a “sensitive place” simply because it is
crowded and protected generally by the New York City Po-
lice Department.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:20:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveM4P99] [#17]
I know it's going to take a lawsuit to confirm but do we think this means upstate permits are valid in New York City?
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:20:40 AM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:29:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lostinboston] [#19]
No, I do not think this ruling makes restricted permits now unrestricted, or allows people with upstate permits to carry in NYC. Fee free to challenge that as we need to confirm and challenge if it doesn’t.  
You will still be required to jump through the hoops, take additional training, submit your references, etc.  it just meant that they can’t deny you based on your stated purpose for wanting to carry concealed.

Eta: for some upstate counties this ruling has no effect.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:30:50 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
I know it's going to take a lawsuit to confirm but do we think this means upstate permits are valid in New York City?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
I know it's going to take a lawsuit to confirm but do we think this means upstate permits are valid in New York City?


More importantly is there severability in Sullivan?


What does severability mean in law?

A contract provision that keeps the remaining portions of the contract in force should a court declare one or more of its provisions unconstitutional, void, or unenforceable.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/severability_clause

From the opinion on (pdf) page 8


In 1911, New York’s “Sullivan Law” expanded the State’s criminal prohibition to the
possession of all handguns
—concealed or otherwise—without a government-issued license. See 1911 N. Y. Laws ch.
195, §1, p. 443. New York later amended the Sullivan Law
to clarify the licensing standard
: Magistrates could “issue
to [a] person a license to have and carry concealed a pistol
or revolver without regard to employment or place of possessing such weapon” only if that person proved “good
moral character” and “proper cause.” 1913 N. Y. Laws ch.
608, §1, p. 1629.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:35:32 AM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:36:36 AM EDT
[#22]
Looks like you'll still need a permit to buy and possess a pistol.  I think carry permits will be shall issue.  Permit applications will be accepted in person only Wednesdays between 5 and 5:15 am at the new pistol permit office in Champlain on the Canadian border.  It will require 5 visits to the Champlain office.  1 to pick up an application, 1 to drop it off, 1 to be fingerprinted, 1 for your interview and lastly to pick up your permit.  The permit will expire annually and will need to be renewed with the above 5 visits to the permit office.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:37:25 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lostinboston:
No, I do not think this ruling makes restricted permits now unrestricted, or allows people with upstate permits to carry in NYC. Fee free to challenge that as we need to confirm and challenge if it doesn’t.  
You will still be required to jump through the hoops, take additional training, submit your references, etc.  it just meant that they can’t deny you based on your stated purpose for wanting to carry concealed.

Eta: for some upstate counties this ruling has no effect.
View Quote


But a restricted permit is simply a full carry permit that was (NOW) unconstitutionally restricted.

So I do think NY is special in this case...it's not like NJ who issues premise only permits. In NJ they will have to re-apply for a carry permit.

NYers already have a carry permit.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:37:59 AM EDT
[#24]
Holy shit with this though...

Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:41:18 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
Holy shit with this though...

https://i.imgur.com/83GZS7G.png
View Quote



How could any gun restriction exits after reading this?
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:46:42 AM EDT
[#26]
I’m happy but also know NY will try to weasel their way out of anything.

I would like the SAFE Act to be the next to go, better not take another hundred years…
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:48:24 AM EDT
[#27]
So be me.
No pistol permit.
What does this change for when I do apply now?
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 11:53:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ACDer] [#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Freebeer:
So be me.
No pistol permit.
What does this change for when I do apply now?
View Quote


You don't have to provide grounds to justify being given a carry permit and be subject to the whims of some county court judge..
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 12:11:53 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By -FiveFiveSIx-:

How could any gun restriction exits after reading this?
View Quote
You underestimate the cleverness of politicians. Besides, a few years ago a California politician told a colleague, who was wavering on voting for a bill that he thought was blatantly unconstitutional, to "vote for it and let the courts sort it out".

That is the modus operandi these days. Since there is absolutely no penalty against legislatures or legislators who willfully write unconstitutional laws, it is a simple matter to keep passing them and get the benefit of them being in force for many years until some court strikes them down. How many times has a court put a hold on a gun control law pending resolution in the courts? I cannot recall any yet when an existing gun control law is overturned by a lower court, the ruling is immediately suspended pending appeal.

Then there is always the odd chance they are upheld in which case the joke is on the citizens.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 1:10:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Congratulations!

I'm so happy to see this.


<-former NYS resident.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 1:19:49 PM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 1:22:24 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fish223:


Hope life is still great in Free America, brother.
View Quote
Thank you.

It's great enough to stay where I am.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 2:01:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Sorry.

We’re fucked. It’s about to get much worse for NY gun owners.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 2:03:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
I know it's going to take a lawsuit to confirm but do we think this means upstate permits are valid in New York City?
View Quote


That’s my question
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 2:21:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 0612Devil:


That’s my question
View Quote


My guess is that Honchul will call a special session to address the "emergency" created by the Supreme Court ruling today.  Even if they do make the pistol permit section of the Penal Law "shall issue" I expect that a separate permit application will be required for New York City that while ostensibly "shall issue" will be so onerous to comply with that no one will actually be issued a permit setting the stage for another Supreme Court challenge that will take years and years to percolate through the Federal Court system.  I am 64 years old and do not expect to see a NYC permit in my lifetime.  Hopefully I am wrong but I do not expect those criminals in Albany to roll over just because the Supreme Court says so.  Look at what they have done with sanctuary cities and non citizen voting in violation of Federal Law.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 2:56:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:


If you have a restricted "carry" permit...yes. You can now carry.

That's what this decision is saying...but I'm no lawyer. So...
No, not necessarily.  You "applied for" a permit with restrictions, and that is what you got.  There is nothing technically wrong with them saying if you want Target/Hunting, the process stays the same, if you want Full Carry, there is now a legitimate pathway, but you have to go to several expensive classes, including live fire, and get other "reasonable things."  All this does is prevent them from saying "self defense is not proper cause to issue a full carry."  That said, the restrictions themselves rely on the concept of proper cause for this or that, ie. you've shown proper cause for target, proper cause for hunting/hiking/sports, so that is the permit you get - if the concept of proper cause is fully defunct, perhaps we just revert to the penal law that says "to have and to carry concealed" - unclear how the state will view it and try to enforce it and ultimately you don't want to be in a position where they are claiming that your license is invalid for some reason, even if it's contrary to the ruling.

Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
I know it's going to take a lawsuit to confirm but do we think this means upstate permits are valid in New York City?
Possibly.  Wouldn't do it until more guidance comes out.
Originally Posted By Freebeer:
So be me.
No pistol permit.
What does this change for when I do apply now?

Nothing, Target/Hunting/Sportsman will still probably be available.  Full carry will have additional requirements, unless they give in and just upgrade everyone.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 3:06:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ACDer] [#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tahawus:
Sorry.

We’re fucked. It’s about to get much worse for NY gun owners.
View Quote


Unfortunately true, until the new punitive and unconstitional laws the state will pass are challenged in court. It will be worse before it gets better.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 4:10:43 PM EDT
[#38]
Those shifty bastards in NY will do whatever they can to prevent this court decision from making the second amendment a first class right in NY.
So glad I left.
They will figure out a way to continue to infringe.

Link Posted: 6/23/2022 5:23:28 PM EDT
[#39]
I mean guys this opinion is so strong she can try to pass any laws she wants but they're going to get struck down.

So many lower courts were waiting on this decision to determine what level of scrutiny to apply...

And this basically blows that out of the water.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 5:32:46 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lostinboston:
No, I do not think this ruling makes restricted permits now unrestricted, or allows people with upstate permits to carry in NYC. Fee free to challenge that as we need to confirm and challenge if it doesn’t.  
You will still be required to jump through the hoops, take additional training, submit your references, etc.  it just meant that they can’t deny you based on your stated purpose for wanting to carry concealed.

Eta: for some upstate counties this ruling has no effect.
View Quote



I humbly disagree with the not unrestricted part...

- shall issue because the SC affirms the right of an individual to bear arms, the restrictions curtailed bearing arms for self defense which is why the two parties backed by NYSRPA were fighting.  

The decision makes the restrictions void.


Upstate permits in NYC......that is a good question.   Not sure that is addressed by this ruling.  Of couse Litigious James would say it does not.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 5:35:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Aardvark] [#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
I mean guys this opinion is so strong she can try to pass any laws she wants but they're going to get struck down.

So many lower courts were waiting on this decision to determine what level of scrutiny to apply...

And this basically blows that out of the water.
View Quote
Local media here in NYC is featuring many politicians predicting blood running in the streets (they were already a few weeks ago when it became apparent they would lose). Seems that people will be able to carry in the subways. IIRC, there are people already carrying in the subway, as noted during oral arguments, but they are the ones causing the problems now. Not legal people.

It was also brought up by one of the analysts that there is an AWB case in Maryland now pending in light of this ruling. Maryland's AWB may be struck down under this new guidance in which case New York's SAFE Act will probably be up for challenge pretty quickly since it is definitely a violation of Strict Scrutiny.

Of course I remember when Heller was released in 2008 and all the predictions then of gun laws being struck down and, again, blood running in the streets. Fast forward 12 years and we have more draconian restrictions and bans then we did back then. The appellate courts may just use the new "One Step" rule to continue upholding unconstitutional laws and dare SCOTUS to strike them down (exactly what is the penalty for them doing that?). SCOTUS only takes a handful of cases every year and may not be up to such an increased workload.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 5:37:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MikeyCNY:
I’m happy but also know NY will try to weasel their way out of anything.

I would like the SAFE Act to be the next to go, better not take another hundred years…
View Quote



Like the 7 round mag limit in your ten round magazine.  

I’d like to see mag bans get tossed.   Arbitrary and capricious law.

I do not hold my breath on that.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 5:43:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By emsjeep:

No, not necessarily.  You "applied for" a permit with restrictions, and that is what you got.  There is nothing technically wrong with them saying if you want Target/Hunting, the process stays the same, if you want Full Carry, there is now a legitimate pathway, but you have to go to several expensive classes, including live fire, and get other "reasonable things."  All this does is prevent them from saying "self defense is not proper cause to issue a full carry."  That said, the restrictions themselves rely on the concept of proper cause for this or that, ie. you've shown proper cause for target, proper cause for hunting/hiking/sports, so that is the permit you get - if the concept of proper cause is fully defunct, perhaps we just revert to the penal law that says "to have and to carry concealed" - unclear how the state will view it and try to enforce it and ultimately you don't want to be in a position where they are claiming that your license is invalid for some reason, even if it's contrary to the ruling.

Possibly.  Wouldn't do it until more guidance comes out.

Nothing, Target/Hunting/Sportsman will still probably be available.  Full carry will have additional requirements, unless they give in and just upgrade everyone.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By emsjeep:


Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:


If you have a restricted "carry" permit...yes. You can now carry.

That's what this decision is saying...but I'm no lawyer. So...
No, not necessarily.  You "applied for" a permit with restrictions, and that is what you got.  There is nothing technically wrong with them saying if you want Target/Hunting, the process stays the same, if you want Full Carry, there is now a legitimate pathway, but you have to go to several expensive classes, including live fire, and get other "reasonable things."  All this does is prevent them from saying "self defense is not proper cause to issue a full carry."  That said, the restrictions themselves rely on the concept of proper cause for this or that, ie. you've shown proper cause for target, proper cause for hunting/hiking/sports, so that is the permit you get - if the concept of proper cause is fully defunct, perhaps we just revert to the penal law that says "to have and to carry concealed" - unclear how the state will view it and try to enforce it and ultimately you don't want to be in a position where they are claiming that your license is invalid for some reason, even if it's contrary to the ruling.

Originally Posted By DaveM4P99:
I know it's going to take a lawsuit to confirm but do we think this means upstate permits are valid in New York City?
Possibly.  Wouldn't do it until more guidance comes out.
Originally Posted By Freebeer:
So be me.
No pistol permit.
What does this change for when I do apply now?

Nothing, Target/Hunting/Sportsman will still probably be available.  Full carry will have additional requirements, unless they give in and just upgrade everyone.


I would hazard that most county judges would accept requests for removal of the restrictions and grant the unrestricted if you applied right now.  They do not need more guidance than the SC ruling.  If you wait then you get the chance of dealing with whatever hurdles and the NYC cabal create.

If you have a restricted permit I would apply immediately to remove them.  
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 5:44:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveM4P99] [#44]
And sorry but training classes are not in tune with the text history and tradition of the second amendment or firearm ownership... Sorry Hochul.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 7:35:42 PM EDT
[#45]
the real question is, if you now have a constitutional right to conceal carry and you live out of state and have a ccw from that state, when you come to NY, is NY forced to honor it? this sounds more like national reciprocity to me..
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 7:49:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: emsjeep] [#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By blue70chevelle:
the real question is, if you now have a constitutional right to conceal carry and you live out of state and have a ccw from that state, when you come to NY, is NY forced to honor it? this sounds more like national reciprocity to me..
View Quote
No, they can still issue permits and restrict them to certain people (non-criminals, non-mentally defectives, etc.), the requirement is just that your average non-criminal person must get a full carry at the end of their process.  That process could require live fire training, legal education and a variety of other things.  They also don't really opine on non-residents, but presumably you have a right everywhere, so as a US citizen can't really be denied a permit on one state just because you don't live there...this will all require follow-up cases as NY and others desperately try to block this.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 7:50:54 PM EDT
[#47]
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 8:39:26 PM EDT
[#48]
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 9:14:15 PM EDT
[#49]
As far as I understand, restrictions no longer apply to the permits issued already. But I would like to hear from the County. I will call them tomorrow to hear their (likely unconstitutional) opinion.
Link Posted: 6/23/2022 9:33:25 PM EDT
[#50]


Let’s all celebrate this tiny little victory against NY.  I for one am happy every time NYS is forced to face reality.  I fully expect Hochul or our reps to ruin this somehow but not today.

Cheers gents!

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