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Posted: 2/23/2022 3:36:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MNCorrado]
My daughter is a very good trap shooter after taking up the sport a little over a year ago.  Recently we went to the range to get in some trap practice as we do when the weather is nicer.  Unfortunately the experience was horrible.  It relates to something we all need to remember when interacting with women in particular and generally everyone.  Unless one asks for assistance or feedback... MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!  If there is a safety issue... one does need to say something.  That was not the case with my daughter.

Long story short is that my daughter is actively coached by a NCAA scholarship shotgun shooter.  This is not her high school team coach.  Her coach/mentor shoots 600-1000 shells per week in college.  That is a lot of practice/competition.  Her average was 13 less than a year ago and now she is consistently shooting 22-25's.

So these two high school coaches come up to her at the range and even before she shoots any clays and begin engaging her.  First making a point of how they coach for school A and school B.  She is just trying to get her gear organized and they come running over.  The one guy makes a big deal of how he can make her a better shooter.  Immediately her BS detector pegs out and I thought on no not again.

One of the guys in particular begins to rip her apart after she missed two clays and continues to do so after she finishes her round.  I was not going to get into an argument with him and the other guy with loaded firearms about.  After my daughter shot rounds of 22-23 we immediately packed it in.  She was wearing colored shooting glasses but I knew she was near tears and pissed.

As she waited in the car I went out and spoke to the somewhat reasonable guy and said.  Your buddy and to an extent yourself just really made my daughter upset.  She is crying in the car.  I told him this is why we don't come to the range often when we know people (middle aged - know it all men) are likely around.  I have access to the facility at any time.  I said you know nothing of my daughter and we explained to both of you she has a coach.  Her coach shoots more shells in a week than you likely do in 6 months or a year.  I flat out told the one guy his buddy was a complete ass and said nothing positive.  The guy I was talking to knew they both were out of bounds and my daughter shot with a very high level of proficiency.  They should have kept their mouths shut.  He knew that however well meaning their interaction was with my daughter they caused some damage and pain.  He tried to deflect and say sorry in a way but I said stop you have done enough damage today.

I won't bore you with the details of the stupid ass stuff they said.  I am not a shotgun shooter.  That is why she has a coach who knows what they are doing and understands everyone has a slightly different way to reach their potential via variations in holds, stance, etc.

My daughter has a fairly thick skin for most things and is a almost a 3rd degree black belt in taekwondo at 15.  But older middle aged men wanting to "help" her at the range really sets her off and creeps her out.  I told her the day after that if she was 200 pounds and dumpy looking they might have said nothing.  I know they would have said nothing.  Unfortunately she looks much older than she is and has the kind of looks that cause dads to worry.  At least she is in a combat sport (TKD) and knows how to use all types of firearms.  There also seems to be a common theme when she shoots.  She goes to the range and suddenly people are sniffing around.  It is what it is.  Effectively it was another life lesson for her.  Until this point she was a bit clueless why men were watching her intently at the range while she shot or engaged her in conversation as to be annoying.

Moving forward we have a response for people wanting to "help" her become a better shooter.  After speaking with her coach about what happened he also will give her some tools to deal with this in the future.  Mostly he said he was sorry it happened and has seen it happen to other girls.

So the reason for the long post?  Unless someone asks you for help at the range or asks for your opinion... don't offer any!  I won't name the two high schools those guys coach for.  I just am glad they are not the shooting coach at my daughter's high school.

I know it is a fine line between being overprotective and having my daughter learn to fend for herself.  I think she has the tools and maturity now after this incident to nicely say thanks but no thanks to shut them down in different ways.  We shall see moving forward.
Link Posted: 2/23/2022 10:38:16 PM EDT
[#1]
This story is weird to me.  At the risk of seeming like an ass, let me see if I have the details straight:  You went to a shooting range to shoot trap with your high school-age kid.  While you were there, two coaches from local high school trap teams approached your kid and offered some pointers.  You were offended because your kid already is on a trap team, and your kid was emotionally damaged by the unsolicited advice.  You then gave said coaches a stern talking-to advising them not to try to help high school-age kids with trap shooting unless specifically asked, while kid went to the car to cry.  Afterwards, you came on here to tell everyone not to ever try to help anyone with anything for any reason unless specifically asked for such help?  

It seems like you are alluding to the two coaches being sexual predators or something.  Did they do or say something inappropriate to your kid?  Why is your kid “creeped out” by a whole segment of the population, which happens to also be the primary demographic of gun clubs?  How is she going to get past that aversion?  There have to be details left out for this to have gone down the way you describe.  You mention that the experience was “horrible”, and even talk about avoiding an argument as everyone had firearms.  That sounds pretty serious, but everything you described happening sounds annoying at worst.  

What am I missing?
Link Posted: 2/25/2022 11:21:59 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By erud:
This story is weird to me.  At the risk of seeming like an ass, let me see if I have the details straight:  You went to a shooting range to shoot trap with your high school-age kid.  While you were there, two coaches from local high school trap teams approached your kid and offered some pointers.  You were offended because your kid already is on a trap team, and your kid was emotionally damaged by the unsolicited advice.  You then gave said coaches a stern talking-to advising them not to try to help high school-age kids with trap shooting unless specifically asked, while kid went to the car to cry.  Afterwards, you came on here to tell everyone not to ever try to help anyone with anything for any reason unless specifically asked for such help?  

It seems like you are alluding to the two coaches being sexual predators or something.  Did they do or say something inappropriate to your kid?  Why is your kid “creeped out” by a whole segment of the population, which happens to also be the primary demographic of gun clubs?  How is she going to get past that aversion?  There have to be details left out for this to have gone down the way you describe.  You mention that the experience was “horrible”, and even talk about avoiding an argument as everyone had firearms.  That sounds pretty serious, but everything you described happening sounds annoying at worst.  

What am I missing?
View Quote


Seems to me he is venting about a bad experience, not really hard to read into that.
Link Posted: 2/25/2022 1:04:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MNCorrado] [#3]
What is missing of course is the context and history.  Had to be there and have to know the backstory.  Every time we go to a couple of facilities the "know it all" geniuses seem to come flying out of the woodwork to "help" my daughter become a better shooter.  She already is highly proficient as I said.  I told the two individuals she already has a coach and is actively working with them.  That should have been the clue to let her do her training and be quiet.  If someone was at an indoor range and there was a super attractive woman shooting a couple of lanes down... would you immediately go over and say how you can help them become a better shooter?  Nope.  Would you stop what you are doing and stand next to her during her practice?  Nope. If you were that woman drilling the x ring at 25 yards over and over again how would you feel about someone bugging you at the range?  Yet that is what happened and has happened in the past over and over again except on the trap/skeet field.

It was fine that they initially offered to "help" my daughter.  Though when we both said she has a coach she is actively working with that is in the top 25 in the nation for collegiate trap/skeet shooters, they should have known to be quiet and mind their own business.  I shot competitive high power service rifle for many years.  Never in practice nor competition would people approach others and begin offering advice on equipment, holds, ammo, sling use... whatever.  Unless someone asked for it.  I coached cross country and track for a number of years as a high school coach.  If I was running the lakes in Minneapolis and came across a young woman I would not engage them out of the blue saying how I can help them become faster because I am the coach at XYZ high school.  Or do the same thing during or after a road race.  It comes across badly on multiple fronts.  How would most fathers react to that if they saw that happen to their daughter over and over again.

Most people have a 6th sense.  My daughter was alone in the club house with one of the guys for a few minutes and she said the guy creeped her out.  He was not respecting a normal social physical boundary.  I take her word for it.  She is nearly a 3rd degree black belt in taekwondo.  After 12 years in the sport she has had enough training and education to know when something is off.  She said something was off.  She tried to disengage in conversation and leave but the guy kept talking and wanting to show her past great shooters on his phone.  It is what it is.  No harm no foul in the end.  The guy was a complete stranger and I never had met either of the guys before and he was inside of her space bubble alone in a building with nobody around.  She should have been on guard as she was.

The horrible part is that it just was a variation on a theme that has occurred numerous times at two facilities.  I have been a member at both facilities for over 20 years now.  She just is SO tired of multiple people trying to help her.  I am tired of trying to be friendly and watch people profess to know things they really don't.  How many little league, hockey, or soccer coaches ever competed in the sports they coach beyond high school?  It is the same for most high school sports.  How many coaches actually competed in college?  Of those how many competed as D1/D2 athletes?  Essentially zero for the most part.  High school trap and skeet shooting is exploding as a sport nationwide.  Unfortunately most coaches either are hunters who happen to shoot trap or skeet once in a while or just are recreational shooters who are self taught.  I ran cross country and track at a Big-Ten university.  Every fall the track coaches would spend months to upwards of a year trying to have the new batch of freshman undo all of the bad things they learned from their high school coaches that were incompatible with success in the Big-Ten.  My point is that when coaches at the high school level make a big deal of how good they are or what they know... it is a huge red flag.  It also is a potential sign of a toxic coach.  My point being what is the requirement to become a high school coach for any sport?  There is none.  There used to be some when I coached a long time ago.  I was a teacher and coach.  I had to have a coaching license with the state.  Twenty plus college credits in biomechanics, anatomy, sports injury, and a host of other topics.  As the athletic trainer at my girls high school who used to be the head trainer for the U of M hockey team when they won back to back national championships once told me... think about the knowledge and skill requirements needed to be a high school coach now...  I said there are none.  Bingo!  

The intentions of these "helpers" that come out of the woodwork likely are on the up and up but it comes across badly.  Too many cooks in the kitchen is a bad thing.  I am tired of having to explain why she does the things she does.  At some level what does her foot position matter if she is scoring 25's consistently?  What works for her will be different based on physiology, experience, and maturity.  Men and women shoot trap and skeet in profoundly different ways.  Physically they have to shoot in different ways due to upper body muscle mass and others.  Those guys tried to offer and make changes to her position to make her shoot like they do, or like other teenage boys do.  They just did not know how women need to approach the sport differently.  Interestingly enough whenever she practices at the Minneapolis Gun Club nobody ever says anything to her and if they do it only is extremely supportive after her rounds are complete.  Men there don't beeline over when she practices.  At the Minneapolis Gun Club there are a number of extremely strong women competitors and women that come out to practice on a regular basis.  My daughter has met and talked to some of them.  It is a completely different vibe there compared to the other locations.  Obviously the culture is different there.  The club is focused on competition vs. some recreational endeavor.  Perhaps that and with the number of women shooters is why people mind their own business so to speak.

Mountains out of mole-hills.  Charge me guilty!  It just is so annoying as you said.  When it happens over and over again the end result is less desire to practice during any public shooting hours.  She can't improve without consistent practice and she struggles to have consistent practice when people are always intruding.    Maybe she is working on a mental skill at the range and part of that training session might result in a ton of misses.  Anyone watching will not know that nor know she has a very high average in competition.  How could they know?  Yet they make a point of wanting to help her.

The learning lesson of the day is this.  Yup she needs to get over the aversion to practicing with older men around wanting to give her advice.  The know it all types.  Part of that involves her being more proactive in telling people thanks but no thanks.  I have an active coach and I have very specific things I am working on with them.  I appreciate your interest in helping me but I have very specific things I am working on and need to focus on my tasks for the day.  If you could give me some space to complete my training session I really would appreciate it.

I only posted my initial message as something for people to consider.  There are hardly any women that participate in the shooting sports.  Think about how it might be received... in offering unsolicited help or engaging women at the range.  This being more so with teenagers or young women who are alone.  The assumption should not be that because they are female they are not proficient or somehow require my assistance.  Ultimately I doubt most of us would approach another man at the range and go out of our way to "help" them.

What has been going on finally came to a head recently as I described.  Her coach gave her some additional ideas to help deflect the well meaning guys at the range when she practices in the future as well.  I only mentioned the experience to vent and also for something we all need to consider when interacting with women at the range.

Rant over...  :)
Link Posted: 2/25/2022 7:24:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: rn22723] [#4]
The OP opened the can of worms!  He exposed weaknesses rather than strengths.
Well some people need to have better skills at deflecting unwanted attention! Respectfully decline the help and move on. Having an internet forum hissey fit does not bode well in my eyes.
Where was dad?  Should he have intercepted the unwanted help? HMMMMM  always more to the story!

Who cares if she mentored or coached by some coach who shoots 1000s of rounds a week?  I am not impressed.  Shooting is more mental than any thing! You do not have shoot 1000s of rds a week to have insight and coaching skills!  Sorry that does not fly! Because some of the best coaches / mentors were not high level participants! In fact most of the time that seems to be a detriment.

Who gives a hoot is she has 50th degree in Whoopee! Means nothing! NOTTA Are we supposed kneel and bow our heads and be in AWE?
It obvious that she defaulted to her level training, to go off and cry in the car!  

If she is so in tune....then leave the area where the creepy fellow is.  THAT DOES NOT TAKE HARVARD DEGREE or being a Division 1 Athlete ! It takes being educated to have a plan!
If she is physically accosted then she needs to do what she needs to do YELL, USE HER SO CALLED SKILLS etc and inflict pain and leave the area!

She is NOT Kim Rhode is she? NOPE.  Just a local gal with some talent evidently. Good for her! If she can have some kind of collegiate success down the road great! But, she needs to have fun along the way.


Link Posted: 2/28/2022 1:05:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Probably the 1st and only time I'll ever agree with rn22723

*checks OP rants* If only there'd have been a manager to complain to eh Karen?
Link Posted: 2/28/2022 1:39:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Originally Posted By MNCorrado:
Unless one asks for assistance or feedback... MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!  If there is a safety issue... one does need to say something.  That was not the case with my daughter.

View Quote


OP, and everyone else, this is all that matters.  Although as her dad you'll get more sympathy here if you just told us about how you told the other guys to go away so that your daughter could shoot.  

Link Posted: 2/28/2022 3:58:02 PM EDT
[#7]
In the end mountain out of mole-hills of course.  Was I hyper sensitive.  Sure.  I just was fed up with the pattern of dumb-asses intruding on her training at the range.  Welcome to the real world.  Dumb-asses are plentiful.  Better to learn and accept that fact now vs. later.  One thing the girl has learned in her short life is to have a great BS detector.

Time for all of us to move on from this topic.  I am done with it.  Just take a moment before trying to help women when they are shooting.  Think about it from their perspective.  That's it.
Link Posted: 2/28/2022 7:02:31 PM EDT
[#8]
The best day at the range is one where I don't have to talk to anyone.
Link Posted: 2/28/2022 7:07:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By macphisto:
The best day at the range is one where I don't have to talk to anyone.
View Quote


Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 3/1/2022 10:18:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By macphisto:
The best day at the range is one where I don't have to talk to anyone.
View Quote


Yup.

I've taken a lot of first time shooters, and it's a relief when there's nobody else there.

That said, I have zero issues with asking someone nicely to mind there own business, nor follow it up with a not so polite "go the fuck away" if needed.  


Link Posted: 3/30/2022 2:38:10 PM EDT
[#11]
@MNCorrado

Sent you a PM, asking if it was at a particular range.

Many ranges are trying to encourage women to participate in shooting sports, to bring in political allies, and grow the sport. Some folks can be a bit obnoxious as they try to help, but the intent is there.

My key takeaway is that one should help only when asked. Don’t assume you’ve something to offer someone else. Otherwise, be polite and don’t bother others at the range.
Link Posted: 4/16/2022 11:30:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: norseman1] [#12]
I have had my son at the trap range as he is slowly getting more comfortable and improving his skills.
At our club, there are only 2 or 3 guys who I trust to come up to him and start a chat, as they are coaches that do a good job.

Its tough to see them struggle, but, its also a good idea to get a 2nd set of eyes and input.

Case in point, my son was having trouble leading the birds.
I have schooled him the basics but it wasn't sinking in.
One of my best friends (and squad member for trap) walked over and said things just a little different.
All of a sudden, he was leading...

Whether its shooters pride of parents pride, you are never too old to learn.


That said, there are plenty of fucking elmer's on the ranges these days who need to be kept as far away from family as possible.
Link Posted: 5/19/2022 3:17:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DeathDealer164] [#13]
[rant]
There are "experts" all over in the gun community. However, from my own experience, nothing brings out the experts like trap shooting.  I belonged to a local club with some very nice trap ranges, but there was this cabal of members who seemed to think they controlled the trap ranges and everything related to trap shooting.  You were required to be "trained" by one of those members to be able to have the honor of using the trap machines, however, they would schedule the trainings during the week and in the afternoon (great timing for those that are not retired), and on top of that, would usually only schedule two sessions total.  If you missed either of those trainings, you were basically up the creek with no paddle for the rest of the year.

But if you sacrificed your first born or placed a pint of your own blood onto the alter of the trap house, you might have been lucky enough to step onto the holy ground of the trap range.  However, that entry usually came with a cost of constant advice from the trap overlords.  Probably because they never wanted the unwashed on their sacred grounds in the first place.

I chose to not renew my membership over the internal politics, which is really unfortunate, as places to shoot around the cities are far and few between.
[/rant]

Sorry to hear about your daughter's experience.
Link Posted: 5/20/2022 8:44:48 AM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 5/20/2022 5:54:33 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FrozenWinter:

Mind if I ask what club this was at and when? The club I'm at requires people who want to run the big electric machine to be trained only because in the past someone who didnt know what they were doing tried to refill it and broke it good.
If you dont want to name the club in the open fourm feel free to drop me a PM.
View Quote


I'm curious as well. Well, I'm only curious if it was Metro Gun Club up in Blaine.
Link Posted: 5/23/2022 2:02:14 PM EDT
[#16]
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