If you came to me as a business and said:

* We're failing to retain 42% of employees within their first 5 years (without quantifying those that leave for other professions vs moms going home to raise kids).

* We have margins of failure in critical core competencies (math, science, language arts) in the 52-56% region

...then told me that the proposed fix for this is more money, I would try not to laugh hard while politely telling you to get out of my office and prepare for your business to collapse.

It's obvious from these numbers that the system is faulty, which is why it produced these results.

Without a fundamental change to the system, you will continue to have these results, and more revenue poured into this system will only prolong the problem.

This legislation is only valid for repairing roads, but doesn't stand a chance at fixing schooling.

Sounds about right. Instead of finding and fixing the actual root cause of a problem, lets toss a bunch of money at it as a ruse, while kicking the can down the road until it becomes someone else's problem. Welcome to the way business gets done these days.

Are those real stats for Utah schools?  And how do they compare to national averages?

I didn't grow up here. I escaped here from Kommifornia. I completed my BS here, but anything under college level I'm pretty unfamiliar with.

Is it another tax? I don't vote for taxes.

My philosophy is let the legislature propose and pass new taxes, and take the political heat for it. It's way too easy to let the "direct democracy" impose new taxes on itself.

I just looked at the elementary school stats for my district, as well as the State.

Terrible numbers in SAGE testing, not that I accept that testing little kids makes any sense at all.

Language Arts: 35%

Math: 43%

Science: 42%

The whole system is fundamentally flawed.  We provide a real educational environment based out of our home, the natural beauty and outdoor opportunities, and science/art/technology/engineering/humanities infrastructure found in Utah.

The crazy thing is that I see little kids in our neighborhood going to and from the bus with huge backpacks that I never carried until Jr. High.  We're talking 6yr olds hunched over with more than 1/3rd their body weight of books in a backpack.

Utah used to be #2 in the Nation for HS grad, SATs, College attendance, and College graduation rates.

How did it drop from #2 then?  Immigration of non English speakers? I think that played a huge role in CA stats.

That has been one of the main factors, the amount of effort that goes into ESL for immigrants, but Utah has always had a huge birth rate.

I think the other major factor is the marked decline in schooling and the teaching profession, with many teachers with Masters degrees that are still unable to communicate in the English language at a collegiate level, let alone be effective at passing on any knowledge or generating interest in subjects that appeal to students.

That is a very big part of the problem.

The school my daughter would have gone to was actually teaching kindergarten in Spanish because most of the kids didn't speak English. This was also the lowest rated elementary school in the state. I said hell no; we managed to scrape up the money to send her to a private elementary school, and then to charter schools.

The large family's are also a problem. I have no problem paying taxes to support education. It just bothers me that I have no kids in school, and someone with the same income and 6 kids pays less taxes than me. Eliminate the dependent deduction or institute a head tax so that large family's pay more than someone who has no children.

Gary

Well, the church in its sacred and not at all idiotic efforts to not be an old white boys club has diversified the state a good amount and thats why numbers and results are dropping.

I have a problem with paying property taxes for net negative services that I'll never use for my children.

Why can't I retain that money and put it towards my family education plan?

I haven't ever heard a good answer to that question.

That's what it seems like to me, but I wasn't going to put it so bluntly.

The idea that classes should be taught in anything but English seems disgusting unless it is a foreign language class. Then again, there are so many problems with public education today I feel it needs to be redesigned from the ground up.

Not relevant to the discussion, as the problem plagues other States as well.

Unless you can make an argument that The Church has influence on California's, or any other State's immigration and resultant test scores.

CA Public Schools Math and Language Arts test results

That's a fuck no from me on Prop 1.

We need to stop having so many damn kids because our infrastructure is going to require totalitarian communistic tax rates to make it effective education.  The cost of living is rapidly out-pacing the average wage.

Mormons, love kids and public schools but hate taxes

We just found out they're re-districting our area so that all the kids will be going to different public schools even farther from here, with even worse test scores.

Our property tax bill went up noticeably as well.

I think if people in Utah knew how public schooling was foisted onto this State and why, they would be upset and pull their kids.

I've noticed that a lot of the families in my neighborhood send their kids to private school, including kids with special needs.

Several others teach at home.

One family who did it at home has several fine, well-developed and adjusted kids who are all adults now except for one.

Their oldest daughter plays the organ and I never heard her once make a mistake.  Looks like a super model, runs her own business now.

Their other daughter is on a mission, and their son is part of a STEM home school group that competes and wins robotics competitions.

If someone talks about the legitimacy of public schools and is a member of the Church, I would thoughtfully have them consider what the Prophets have said about public programs:

"I am opposed to free education as much as I am opposed to taking property from one man and giving it to another who knows not how to take care of it… I do not believe in allowing my charities to go through the hands of robbers who pocket nine-tenths themselves and give one tenth to the poor… Would I encourage free schools by taxation? No!"

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol 18, p. 357 General Conference, 1877

“When you accept food stamps, you accept an unearned handout that other working people are paying for. You do not earn food stamps or welfare payments. Every individual who accepts an unearned government gratuity is just as morally culpable as the individual who takes a handout from taxpayers’ money to pay his heat, electricity, or rent. There is no difference in principle between them… The price you pay for “something for nothing” may be more than you can afford. Do not rationalize your acceptance of government gratuities by saying, ‘I am a contributing taxpayer too.’ By doing this you contribute to the problem which is leading this nation to financial insolvency.”

President Ezra Taft Benson, BYU speech, 1977

"Occasionally, we receive questions as to the propriety of Church members receiving government assistance instead of Church assistance. Let me restate what is a fundamental principle. Individuals, to the extent possible, should provide for their own needs. Where the individual is unable to care for himself, his family should assist. Where the family is not able to provide, the Church should render assistance, not the government. We accept the basic principle that “though the people support the government, the government should not support the people.”

Latter-day Saints should not receive unearned welfare assistance from local or national agencies. This includes food stamps. Priesthood and Relief Society leaders should urge members to accept the Church welfare program and earn through the program that which they need, even though they may receive less food and money. By doing so, members will be spiritually strengthened, and they will maintain their dignity and self-respect.

Last year in the United States alone over $98 billion was distributed in unearned government transfer payments and other aid to millions of men and women who most often did nothing for what they received. This character-weakening government dole is repeated in almost every nation of the world. We encourage Latter-day Saints everywhere to remain free of government assistance. Work for what you receive."

Ezra Taft Benson, April 1977

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints emphasizes and pushes education. Link

I taught public education in Utah for five years before leaving and entering my current profession.

I taught HS for five years. I blame teachers Unions for much of the failure...

I loved the kids. I loved teaching (business, marketing, economics).

Left, and never looked back.

Utah has some amazing academicians. I had student-athletes who were brilliant students and brilliant athletes... And I had some kids who didn't care.

Since we left Utah, we had a kid skip HS entirely, and go straight to Jr. College as a HS freshman.

Is at BYU-I right now as an 18 yo College freshman with a complete Associates Degree.

My next two are both athletes, and want to be on the HS teams... I encouraged them both to go straight to Jr. College, and skip HS, but no go...

One more in Jr. High...