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Posted: 4/21/2019 8:53:39 AM EDT
[#1]
If the barrel is rifled, it is a pistol.
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Posted: 4/21/2019 7:39:25 PM EDT
[#2]
With a 16 inch barrel it's a pistol?
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Posted: 4/21/2019 8:31:22 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With a 16 inch barrel it's a pistol? |
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Posted: 4/21/2019 8:57:31 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Originally manufactured to be fired with one hand". Your installation of an aftermarket AFG wouldn't change that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
With a 16 inch barrel it's a pistol? Wondering about NJ. |
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Posted: 4/21/2019 11:47:14 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh no. An AR lower is purchased / manufacturered as an Other. A lower is not designed to be fired from the shoulder...or with one hand. Adding a VFG'd upper and a brace make it...nothing covered by AWB laws in NY. Wondering about NJ. I understand your argument, and I agree with it. A judge would not. |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 8:09:52 AM EDT
[#6]
Well that sucks. Not sure how a gun with a brace and a VFG can be considered "originally manufacturered to be fired with one hand"...when the VFG is clearly meant to be gripped with a 2nd hand to support the weight of the heavy gun...but ok.
I understand the fear, and I am no NJ law expert...but you can't let an incorrect interpretation scare you away. And nothing quoted so far has proven these illegal. |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 9:24:16 AM EDT
[#7]
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/18/aow/
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Posted: 4/22/2019 9:48:20 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/18/aow/ This is a true Other...a non category. It is a braced gun, 26" oal or MORE..and a vertical foregrip. Not meant to be fired with one hand so not a pistol. Not meant to be shouldered so not a rifle. Not less than 26 inches so not an AOW/concealable weapon. |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 12:16:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Okay. Got it now.
You're talking about building a "Franklin Armory XO-26" type firearm, and asking if it would be legal in NJ, despite the fact that it is Federally legal. 
Well, the "Shockwave" type firearms were given the okay. I don't see why these would not be. I suggest your friend get it in writing. 
Of course, it would have to be made in another state, unless he is a manufacturer. 
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Posted: 4/22/2019 2:35:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Okay. Got it now.
You're talking about building a "Franklin Armory XO-26" type firearm, and asking if it would be legal in NJ, despite the fact that it is Federally legal.
Well, the "Shockwave" type firearms were given the okay. I don't see why these would not be. I suggest your friend get it in writing.
Of course, it would have to be made in another state, unless he is a manufacturer. And yes, if the Shockwave shotgun is legal in NJ, then so are these AR15 "others." Same exact principle. Regarding manufacturing...Buying a stripped AR lower in NJ and making it into "something" is not allowed? I know people in NJ who have made ARs from stripped receivers...is that a no go anymore? |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 2:55:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Brain fart again. Assembly is still allowed, so far.
ETA: So, theoretically, the assault weapon ban on rifles, pistol and shotguns would not apply, as this is neither of those. |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 3:26:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Yeah that is what I was asking...
Does NJ have some strange law that bans a gun that is not a rifle, not a pistol, and not an AOW? Unless NJ has a law that says "a device that uses the energy of chemical propellant to force a bullet down a barrel, that has an arm brace and a vertical foregrip meant to be held by the non-trigger finger hand, and is 26" or more, is banned" |
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Posted: 4/22/2019 5:15:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unless NJ has a law that says "a device that uses the energy of chemical propellant to force a bullet down a barrel, that has an arm brace and a vertical foregrip meant to be held by the non-trigger finger hand, and is 26" or more, is banned" |
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Posted: 4/23/2019 8:18:00 AM EDT
[#14]
So legal in NJ or what?
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Posted: 4/23/2019 9:00:02 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So legal in NJ or what? |
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Posted: 4/23/2019 9:10:47 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have my permission. I'm behind you all the way. Do it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So legal in NJ or what? Was hoping it would help you guys too since it's legal in NY. For now. |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 8:01:08 AM EDT
[#17]
I have a story, I was talking to a guy who had one of those Bushmaster carbon pistols, you know the ones that are under 50oz. It was transferred legally in NJ by a dealer. How the story goes, he went to the range and someone called the state police that his weapon was illegal, the weapon was confiscated and he was charged, after 2 years he got the weapon back and the charges were dropped, but his legal expenses were close to 70K, and he told me he paid $699 originally for it. So how I see it even it was transferred legally and is legal, it might cost you big bucks to defend yourself.
some self important person will probably complain and then post "back on ignore" |
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Posted: 4/24/2019 12:08:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a story, I was talking to a guy who had one of those Bushmaster carbon pistols, you know the ones that are under 50oz. It was transferred legally in NJ by a dealer. How the story goes, he went to the range and someone called the state police that his weapon was illegal, the weapon was confiscated and he was charged, after 2 years he got the weapon back and the charges were dropped, but his legal expenses were close to 70K, and he told me he paid $699 originally for it. So how I see it even it was transferred legally and is legal, it might cost you big bucks to defend yourself. some self important person will probably complain and then post "back on ignore" If you don't exercise the few gun rights you have left in NJ, what is the point in having gun rights at all? Do you not build NJ compliant ARs for fear of arrest? These appear to be NJ legal...if you don't want to make a legal gun, that is your choice I guess! |
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Posted: 6/18/2019 2:18:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Sounding like I was right about these being legal?
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Posted: 6/18/2019 5:39:04 PM EDT
[#20]
SHOW ME THE LETTERRRRRR!!!!!
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Posted: 6/18/2019 7:14:06 PM EDT
[#21]
yea answer you will get is goto the store...
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Posted: 6/18/2019 9:09:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SHOW ME THE LETTERRRRRR!!!!! |
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Posted: 6/19/2019 9:49:56 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SHOW ME THE LETTERRRRRR!!!!! |
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Posted: 6/19/2019 12:36:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Gun stores are saying it isnt legal to build your own from a lower, and it has be assembled as a “firearm” from the factory. Yet some people here seem to think its ok. So what is the verdict?
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Posted: 6/19/2019 12:58:33 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gun stores are saying it isnt legal to build your own from a lower, and it has be assembled as a “firearm” from the factory. Yet some people here seem to think its ok. So what is the verdict? |
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Posted: 6/19/2019 2:26:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's legal to assemble from a stripped lower under federal law. I can't think of any NJ law that would prohibit it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Gun stores are saying it isnt legal to build your own from a lower, and it has be assembled as a “firearm” from the factory. Yet some people here seem to think its ok. So what is the verdict? As long as you buy a stripped lower (not one with a stock or transferred as a pistol), and you build it into this OTHER, it is perfectly legal federally (and I assume in NJ as well). |
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Posted: 6/19/2019 8:52:06 PM EDT
[#27]
I agree, can't see why it would be illegal. The only catch is that at one point in your build if you had an extra stock lying around you would theoretically have the parts to build an illegal rifle for NJ purposes, which is specifically mentioned as illegal in NJ. So build your complete lower first with the brace, then slap the upper on it and you are good to go.
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Posted: 6/20/2019 3:43:16 AM EDT
[#28]
Interesting. So this was legal all along, just now theres a state approval letter saying it so now companies are making them for sale.
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Posted: 6/25/2019 7:13:13 PM EDT
[#29]
So the letter posted above was passed around at my department (LEO) today. I'm not sure who or how it was brought to our attention. This is the first I or any of my LEO friends have heard of it.
All I know is that I'm going to retire my HD 14.5 for a braced 10.5 immediately! |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 10:16:56 AM EDT
[#30]
I am so confused.......all that is different is the barrel is a smooth bore?
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Posted: 6/26/2019 2:56:19 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am so confused.......all that is different is the barrel is a smooth bore? |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 3:48:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the letter posted above was passed around at my department (LEO) today. I'm not sure who or how it was brought to our attention. This is the first I or any of my LEO friends have heard of it. All I know is that I'm going to retire my HD 14.5 for a braced 10.5 immediately! |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 4:37:13 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Be careful, a 10.5" will likely be under 26" OAL so it would not be legal. 11.5 should make it though. |
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Posted: 6/26/2019 5:15:06 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. If the NJSP makes up their own rules against how ATF says to measure the OAL. If you follow the Federal Law, the OAL is measured with the brace extended, which means that you could use a 9" barrel and still be legal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Be careful, a 10.5" will likely be under 26" OAL so it would not be legal. 11.5 should make it though. |
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Posted: 6/27/2019 6:05:53 AM EDT
[#35]
I don't know, starting to think
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Posted: 6/27/2019 8:20:41 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know, starting to think https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/45999427/its-a-trap.jpg Exercise what few rights you have left in NJ. |
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Posted: 6/27/2019 11:57:46 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has there ever been an ATF letter specifying how to correctly measure OAL on an adjustable brace? I do recall seeing the letter that the brace is included in the OAL measurement but that was for a non adjustable one. Without one it's probably best to play it safe and just measure from the end of buffer tube. Logically since they measure a stock fully extended the same should apply to a brace, but this is the ATF we're talking about here so who the hell knows. https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-26in-OAL-question/122-717662/?page=1 |
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Posted: 7/1/2019 6:55:49 AM EDT
[#38]
So when do you think a "show me yours, I'll show you mine" thread appears in the hometown forum for these supposedly legal other firearms?
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Posted: 7/1/2019 11:47:34 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
So when do you think a "show me yours, I'll show you mine" thread appears in the hometown forum for these supposedly legal other firearms? |
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Posted: 7/4/2019 7:14:34 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the letter posted above was passed around at my department (LEO) today. I'm not sure who or how it was brought to our attention. This is the first I or any of my LEO friends have heard of it. All I know is that I'm going to retire my HD 14.5 for a braced 10.5 immediately! |
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Posted: 7/4/2019 8:46:47 AM EDT
[#41]
The NJSP are making their own laws now. They say you can't assemble these yourself. Lawsuit?
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Posted: 7/4/2019 11:22:34 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The NJSP are making their own laws now. They say you can't assemble these yourself. Lawsuit? https://i.redd.it/17s8uou6o7831.jpg
Another interesting thing this letter clarifies is that NJ measures the OAL with the brace fully collapsed. |
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Posted: 7/5/2019 7:23:52 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It sounds like they are saying that owning all the parts separately (namely a short barrel upper) constitutes a violation of 2C:39-1(w)(5). They didn't even cite the correct statute, 2c:39-5e(2) has to do with firearms in educational institutions
Another interesting thing this letter clarifies is that NJ measures the OAL with the brace fully collapsed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The NJSP are making their own laws now. They say you can't assemble these yourself. Lawsuit? https://i.redd.it/17s8uou6o7831.jpg
Another interesting thing this letter clarifies is that NJ measures the OAL with the brace fully collapsed. There is nothing saying I can not take the upper receiver from the fully manufactured 'other firearms' and put it on any other lower. Now it's a SBR. Technically, if I own any other lower receiver, the police and prosecutor could say the intent to make a SBR is there as well. |
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Posted: 7/5/2019 7:24:17 AM EDT
[#44]
does the wording in the letter posted imply that a flash hider is OK on these?
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Posted: 7/5/2019 10:10:01 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has there ever been an ATF letter specifying how to correctly measure OAL on an adjustable brace? ATF measures firearms with braces in the folded position. https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/ |
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Posted: 7/5/2019 5:28:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
UPDATE ATF measures firearms with braces in the folded position. https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Has there ever been an ATF letter specifying how to correctly measure OAL on an adjustable brace? ATF measures firearms with braces in the folded position. https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/ |
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Posted: 7/5/2019 5:35:22 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you give us a consensus of the generally opinion of your dept. about the letter? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So the letter posted above was passed around at my department (LEO) today. I'm not sure who or how it was brought to our attention. This is the first I or any of my LEO friends have heard of it. All I know is that I'm going to retire my HD 14.5 for a braced 10.5 immediately! There's not enough of them who even understand any of this for it to matter. Out of the 60ish guys I regularly work with, maybe 5 including me know the difference between an AR Pistol and this braced firearm, even after reading the letter. |
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Posted: 7/6/2019 6:09:59 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@223Rem There's not enough of them who even understand any of this for it to matter. Out of the 60ish guys I regularly work with, maybe 5 including me know the difference between an AR Pistol and this braced firearm, even after reading the letter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So the letter posted above was passed around at my department (LEO) today. I'm not sure who or how it was brought to our attention. This is the first I or any of my LEO friends have heard of it. All I know is that I'm going to retire my HD 14.5 for a braced 10.5 immediately! There's not enough of them who even understand any of this for it to matter. Out of the 60ish guys I regularly work with, maybe 5 including me know the difference between an AR Pistol and this braced firearm, even after reading the letter. Sorta disheartening to hear that such a few number of you know and can tell the difference the two. With such a low number of LEO 'in the know', I really think stepping up into one of these type of "other firearms" may not be the best idea as of yet. Remebering the Carbon15 Pistol that cost $70, 699.00. |
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Posted: 7/6/2019 12:00:22 PM EDT
[#49]
So they don’t want you building one, not because it’s illegal to build it, but because you may end up in possession of an NFA weapon or constructive possession if you gather the parts in the wrong order? Still not seeing any law that prevents you from building it. NJSP advising against building it doesn’t make it illegal.m
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Posted: 7/6/2019 1:17:33 PM EDT
[#50]
If you own an upper less than 16 inches and a fully built ar15 rifle, you have the parts to build an SBR. If the NJSP is saying that it is ok to legally own a fully built other firearm then they are contradicting themselves by saying you cant build your own.
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