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Posted: 1/3/2022 2:44:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Tengo1]
Long story short I sold a bunch of AAC 51T flash hiders and muzzle breaks on gunbroker and eBay last year. Got paid for most with PayPal. They froze my account and kept the $1,000 balance I had left in my account after a 6 month freeze as “user agreement violation and damages”.

I’m currently preparing a small claims case against them.

Couple of questions to determine if they consider there own rules more strict then the state of California:

1. As California residents, are you allowed to buy suppressor mounts online?
2. Any difference if it’s a muzzle brake or a flash hider?
3. If it’s used on a bolt action. Say a PRS set up, not an assault rifle, any issues ordering one online?
4. Does California care that a muzzle brake might be “dual use” and also be a suppressor mount?


Thanks for any help.
Link Posted: 1/3/2022 1:49:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By Tengo1:
Long story short I sold a bunch of AAC 51T flash hiders and muzzle breaks on gunbroker and eBay last year. Got paid for most with PayPal. They froze my account and kept the $1,000 balance I had left in my account after a 6 month freeze as “user agreement violation and damages”.

I’m currently preparing a small claims case against them.

Couple of questions to determine if they consider there own rules more strict then the state of California:

1. As California residents, are you allowed to buy suppressor mounts online?
2. Any difference if it’s a muzzle brake or a flash hider?
3. If it’s used on a bolt action. Say a PRS set up, not an assault rifle, any issues ordering one online?
4. Does California care that a muzzle brake might be “dual use” and also be a suppressor mount?


Thanks for any help.
View Quote


1. Haven’t tried. I can’t give any input.
2. I have bought flash hiders. From my understanding, flash hiders are allowed on fixed mag ar15’s, but a disclaimer online vendors normally put is that it’s the buyers responsibility to know and follow state and local laws. Some vendors will sell flash hiders to us, others won’t.
3. I’m not sure. I wouldn’t see that as an issue considering no.2.
4. Im not sure about that one either.

As far as PP goes, whenever doing gun parts transactions it’s best not to put anything gun related on the notes or whatever for the transaction. Also people do family and friends or gift when doing gun part transactions. Their rules state that PP should not be used for firearm or firearm parts transactions, so it might be tougher for you to fight that.
Link Posted: 1/3/2022 3:32:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Featureless] [#2]
Not a lawyer, I don't see any way that part, by itself, would be illegal in California.  A flash hider might be a "feature" that could determine if an item was an "assault weapon" in California terms but they can be used in a range of legal applications and are not a controlled item by themselves. Nor is it controlled on the federal level.

I'd think some time spent with a lawyer could help with small claims issues.  There may be some "legal aid" sorts which might offer free help, too.  I've done very little with Pay Pal so don't recall their rules, etc.  There may be some issues where a contract might be ambiguous, one sided or otherwise unenforceable in some ways.  Perhaps requiring arbitration and they aren't arbitrating the dispute, or they have terms and conditions on dealing with account balances.    Forfeiting the whole balance as "damages" seems excessive and should be addressed in the contract as to how damages are considered.  "Damages" also have to have some relationship to actual damage.  There seems to be little actual cost to closing a count and cutting a check or making a transfer.  If you would have decided to close the account and requested transfer of your balance,outside of a dispute environment, they'd likely have closed the account and forwarded the funds via check, etc.
Added:  Not sure if this is current.  It may be the aspect they lean on. "(j) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (k) certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law."

I would suggest this could be "ambiguous."  It's not a firearm or ammunition.  "Certain" without having a listing or some sort of defining characteristics says some parts or accessories are allowed and some aren't.  There is no way for you to determine if that part was a problem or not.  It's not regulated.  Also there are issues with "boilerplate"(etc.) contracts where the two parties vary greatly in resources, familiarity with business issues, etc.
Link Posted: 1/3/2022 3:54:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Originally Posted By Tengo1:
Long story short I sold a bunch of AAC 51T flash hiders and muzzle breaks on gunbroker and eBay last year. Got paid for most with PayPal. They froze my account and kept the $1,000 balance I had left in my account after a 6 month freeze as “user agreement violation and damages”.

I’m currently preparing a small claims case against them.

Couple of questions to determine if they consider there own rules more strict then the state of California:

1. As California residents, are you allowed to buy suppressor mounts online? Yes
2. Any difference if it’s a muzzle brake or a flash hider? Flash hiders count as an evil feature on AW, but for non AW no. But parts are parts, we can buy whatever it is on us to insure legal configuration
3. If it’s used on a bolt action. Say a PRS set up, not an assault rifle, any issues ordering one online? Again, parts are parts, no issue
4. Does California care that a muzzle brake might be “dual use” and also be a suppressor mount? CA says if it has any flash hiding properties, it is a flash hider, which counts if you are doing evil features


Thanks for any help.
View Quote
Link Posted: 1/4/2022 2:27:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: leelaw] [#4]
Originally Posted By Tengo1:
1. As California residents, are you allowed to buy suppressor mounts online? Yes
2. Any difference if it’s a muzzle brake or a flash hider? No
3. If it’s used on a bolt action. Say a PRS set up, not an assault rifle, any issues ordering one online? "Assault rifle" is a misnomer. California bans machineguns and assault weapons. Regardless, the rifle platform does not matter. They are legal to purchase for anything, not legal to install on pistols. There is no constructive possession of an assault weapon, so possession is not a crime.
4. Does California care that a muzzle brake might be “dual use” and also be a suppressor mount? Only if installed on pistols, not on rifles. Legal to purchase and possess.
View Quote
Link Posted: 1/4/2022 12:56:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Sounds like PayPal is guilty of theft (and harrassment of a legitimate business).

Link Posted: 1/5/2022 3:27:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Trollslayer:
Sounds like PayPal is guilty of theft (and harrassment of a legitimate business).

View Quote



Well, it sounds like OP sold gun parts, which PP believes are eeeeevil, and therefore was against their TOS.
Link Posted: 1/5/2022 9:42:08 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By leelaw:



Well, it sounds like OP sold gun parts, which PP believes are eeeeevil, and therefore was against their TOS.
View Quote


Except their TOS only says: No firearms, no ammunition, and CERTAIN firearms parts…

With no additional details, no warnings they considered me in violation, no ability to rectify the situation, no ability to remove PayPal as a payment option for future sales while remaining in good standing.

Just boom, your accounts locked, we consider you in violation, we are keeping your money.
Link Posted: 1/6/2022 1:46:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Not saying I agree, but PP has been vehemently anti-gun for over a decade.

It's a roll of the dice to use it.
Link Posted: 1/14/2022 10:45:09 PM EDT
[#9]
I have purchased mounts from stores in CA. Maybe use CA store ads for mounts as example for release of funds.
Link Posted: 1/23/2022 6:42:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Homeinvader] [#10]
You won’t go anywhere with legality angle. Legally speaking, it’s totally irrelevant. Despite all parts being legal in CA (how they are used in a build is where legality comes in), their terms of service can be whatever they like and need not follow what might be otherwise perfectly legal. You agreed to them both at sign up (and again on any forced updates) as well as by actually using the service. You’ll probably be paying more to recover than you will recovering.

I don’t think you have a case here at all unfortunately.

You could however force them to relent somewhat by gathering momentum in social media, if you can get a large enough group of people to agree with you. But in the end, this will be an uphill battle.
Link Posted: 3/31/2022 12:12:32 PM EDT
[#11]
*Update:

All it took was filing in CA Small claims court and having them served to get them to reverse course and give me my money back.

So I essentially recovered everything but the $60 I spent to file and serve them.
Link Posted: 3/31/2022 11:22:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer] [#12]
PayPal and their terms of service and their attempted intrusion into MY bank account is why I do not use PayPal or ebay.  

There is no amount of cost savings that justifies doing as they demand.
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