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Posted: 2/6/2020 10:38:35 PM EST
Can't quite tell what they are trying to accomplish with this.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 2/6/2020 10:52:15 PM EST
In the past, I have used my pistol lower with my 20" Bushmaster upper.


With the new rules, the barrel length would be limited to 16", and OAL to 26". They were following ATF definitions, so those restrictions didn't apply. If this goes through, I'll have to stick with my 10.5" upper.
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 8:36:55 AM EST
Does their barrel length restrictions follow ATF rules as far as suppressors/muzzle devices go?  It seemed a little loose in that regard.
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 11:37:04 AM EST
My guess is that they'll use OAL for anything that's attached, since they're looking to limit things.
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 6:54:14 PM EST
Fuck the MDC on this.

Everyone needs to get their state reps involved.

To any MDC board members reading this - FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU.

They are trying to ban handguns that they don't deem cosmetically acceptable.
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 7:31:25 PM EST
Just measured mine. Going by Fed. guide lines 24.5".
Going from brace fully extended to tip of my comp. 29"

So is this a done deal because its pretty vague.
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 9:10:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/8/2020 10:03:41 PM EST by mzM]
No, not a done deal.

https://mdc.mo.gov/about-us/about-regulations/wildlife-code-missouri/definitions

NOTICE TO SUBMIT COMMENTS: Anyone may file a statement in support of or in opposition to this proposed amendment with Regulations Committee Chairman, Department of Conservation, P.O. Box 180, Jefferson City, MO 65102-0180, or via the department's website at https://short.mdc.mo.gov/Z49. To be considered, comments must be received within thirty (30) days after publication of this notice in the Missouri Register. No public hearing is scheduled.

Comment on this proposed regulation
Official public comment period: April 02, 2020 to May 01, 2020


---------------------------
All current proposed regulations here:

https://mdc.mo.gov/about-regulations/wildlife-code-missouri/proposed-regulation-changes

Good for a bookmark.
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 10:21:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lokifox:
Fuck the MDC on this.

Everyone needs to get their state reps involved.

To any MDC board members reading this - FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU.

They are trying to ban handguns that they don't deem cosmetically acceptable.
View Quote
That escalated quickly
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 11:49:27 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
That escalated quickly
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Originally Posted By lokifox:
To any MDC board members reading this - FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU.
That escalated quickly
Common opinion though. They put commissioners in charge, who don't care too much about actual wildlife management. Lots of people want to eliminate the 1/8 cent tax, and let them live off of permit fees.
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 8:29:07 AM EST
They cant out right ban braces without discrimination against women, elderly,  and the handicapped.

The length restriction goes against allowing suppressors for hunting.

I don't know what the one hand crap is. Any cartridge suitable for deer hunting, isn't one you'd like to shoot one handed.
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 8:41:21 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bendigo78:
They cant out right ban braces without discrimination against women, elderly,  and the handicapped.

The length restriction goes against allowing suppressors for hunting.

I don't know what the one hand crap is. Any cartridge suitable for deer hunting, isn't one you'd like to shoot one handed.
View Quote
I took it that the firearm had to have a pistol grip. Like I said before this is all to vague. Like they are banning you from putting a rifle length upper on a pistol lower.
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 11:18:58 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bendigo78:
I don't know what the one hand crap is. Any cartridge suitable for deer hunting, isn't one you'd like to shoot one handed.
View Quote
That's part of the ATF definition of a pistol, designed to be fired one handed. Same reason you can't put a VFG on a pistol, because that makes it designed for two handed shooting.
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 1:14:20 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
That escalated quickly
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Originally Posted By lokifox:
Fuck the MDC on this.

Everyone needs to get their state reps involved.

To any MDC board members reading this - FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU.

They are trying to ban handguns that they don't deem cosmetically acceptable.
That escalated quickly
Is he wrong... ?
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 1:16:09 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bendigo78:
They cant out right ban braces without discrimination against women, elderly,  and the handicapped.

The length restriction goes against allowing suppressors for hunting.

I don't know what the one hand crap is. Any cartridge suitable for deer hunting, isn't one you'd like to shoot one handed.
View Quote
So they can say "show me"... "nope that's unsafe!"
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 6:02:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/8/2020 6:03:06 PM EST by Weekend_Hillbilly]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By madmacs69:

Is he wrong... ?
View Quote
No he's not.
F MDC, anytime you have three letter government agency fixing a problem that doesn't exist by means of firearm restrictions. F them!
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 9:21:49 PM EST
Is there an open period where we can comment on the proposed change or is it a done deal?
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 10:01:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/11/2020 1:08:23 PM EST by mzM]
No, not a done deal.

https://mdc.mo.gov/about-us/about-regulations/wildlife-code-missouri/definitions

NOTICE TO SUBMIT COMMENTS: Anyone may file a statement in support of or in opposition to this proposed amendment with Regulations Committee Chairman, Department of Conservation, P.O. Box 180, Jefferson City, MO 65102-0180, or via the department's website at https://short.mdc.mo.gov/Z49. To be considered, comments must be received within thirty (30) days after publication of this notice in the Missouri Register. No public hearing is scheduled.

Comment on this proposed regulation
Official public comment period: April 02, 2020 to May 01, 2020

---------------------------
All current proposed regulations here:

https://mdc.mo.gov/about-regulations/wildlife-code-missouri/proposed-regulation-changes

Good for a bookmark.
Link Posted: 2/11/2020 12:00:04 PM EST
The barrel length does not include the comp or a suppressor.  But comp would IMHO count on overall length (but not the suppressor).  So just place your blade or brace in a position to meet the definition.  It will limit barrel length for sure and my 10 may not work without making my blade a bit shorter but it will work.
Link Posted: 2/11/2020 12:47:00 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By kc-coyote:
Is there an open period where we can comment on the proposed change or is it a done deal?
View Quote
Yes to both.
Link Posted: 2/11/2020 7:40:29 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mtomso7464:
The barrel length does not include the comp or a suppressor.  But comp would IMHO count on overall length (but not the suppressor).  So just place your blade or brace in a position to meet the definition.  It will limit barrel length for sure and my 10 may not work without making my blade a bit shorter but it will work.
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Better yet get enough people to raise hell so we don't have to put up with their liberal bullshit.

When they figure out people are going to use 10" barrels instead of 12" they will change the regulations again.

MDC is run by liberal scum. The director is a lifelong Democrat who has has been working within the party for most of her adult life.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 11:14:35 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Weekend_Hillbilly:

No he's not.
F MDC, anytime you have three letter government agency fixing a problem that doesn't exist by means of firearm restrictions. F them!
View Quote
I don't think the MDC is suggesting a ban to AR pistols, I think they are trying to limit handgun hunting season to what folks would traditionally regard as a handgun...like a six shot .357, or a single shot TC contender, etc.

With the use of AR pistols the alternative methods season is now basically an extension of rifle season.

If this rule change went into effect it would not stop you from owning an AR pistol, or using it in rifle season. If you are against season limits and rules regarding method of take overall, fine, that is understandable, but all this rule would be is a limitation on method of take for the alternative season.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 12:02:30 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
I don't think the MDC is suggesting a ban to AR pistols, I think they are trying to limit handgun hunting season to what folks would traditionally regard as a handgun...like a six shot .357, or a single shot TC contender, etc.

With the use of AR pistols the alternative methods season is now basically an extension of rifle season.

If this rule change went into effect it would not stop you from owning an AR pistol, or using it in rifle season. If you are against season limits and rules regarding method of take overall, fine, that is understandable, but all this rule would be is a limitation on method of take for the alternative season.
View Quote
Any limiting is wrong.  Just because it doesn't affect rifle season doesn't make it wrong.  It is wrong.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 12:15:42 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
I don't think the MDC is suggesting a ban to AR pistols, I think they are trying to limit handgun hunting season to what folks would traditionally regard as a handgun...like a six shot .357, or a single shot TC contender, etc.

With the use of AR pistols the alternative methods season is now basically an extension of rifle season.

If this rule change went into effect it would not stop you from owning an AR pistol, or using it in rifle season. If you are against season limits and rules regarding method of take overall, fine, that is understandable, but all this rule would be is a limitation on method of take for the alternative season.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Originally Posted By Weekend_Hillbilly:

No he's not.
F MDC, anytime you have three letter government agency fixing a problem that doesn't exist by means of firearm restrictions. F them!
I don't think the MDC is suggesting a ban to AR pistols, I think they are trying to limit handgun hunting season to what folks would traditionally regard as a handgun...like a six shot .357, or a single shot TC contender, etc.

With the use of AR pistols the alternative methods season is now basically an extension of rifle season.

If this rule change went into effect it would not stop you from owning an AR pistol, or using it in rifle season. If you are against season limits and rules regarding method of take overall, fine, that is understandable, but all this rule would be is a limitation on method of take for the alternative season.
Better get rid of carbon arrows and optics while we’re at it.

The natives didn’t have any of those things!
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 1:25:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/12/2020 1:28:16 PM EST by Buckshot4U]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:
Any limiting is wrong.
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I disagree.  I think no bag limits would be bad.  I think year round seasons for everything under the sun would be bad.  I disagree with plenty of what MDC does, but I think that there have to be limits.  I hope that the limits and quotas are set up by science and not politics, but no doubt there is plenty of opportunity for politics to trump science in the decision making.  It's far from perfect, but I think it's a necessary evil.

I think the original intent of the various special seasons was to give folks who used other methods a chance to get out in the woods without firearms hunters.  You could argue that having that intention is wrong, but if there were no special seasons, archery and muzzleloaders would die a pretty quick death.  You could argue that it should be survival of the fittest and maybe archery and muzzleloaders need to die out.  You could also argue that a modern crossbow is more efficient than the sticks and strings that the Indians used, so an AR pistol is just the next level of progression.  I've got an AR pistol that I really enjoy shooting.  I bought it as a way to let me, family and friends hunt in Alternative Deer Season, but I always thought using it was way outside what the original intent of what Alternative Season was.

I hate government regulations as much as the next guy.  I love freedom as much as the next guy.  But when the government overlords tell me that they want me to quit hunting the king's deer with my AR pistol, in Alternative Deer Season, I'm going to have a tough time fighting and dying on that hill.  I guess if they push this through, then ramp it up and tell me that I can't use my AR rifle in rifle season everyone will be able to tell me "told ya so".
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 1:25:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/12/2020 1:26:04 PM EST by Buckshot4U]
double tap
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 2:10:13 PM EST
Just throwing it out there...

Show me how a TC Contender in 243 is any less capable than an AR in 223.

Show me how a 25ACP is more ethical than an AR in 223.

Show me how forcing a potential hunter to buy a $1200 S&W is better for MO conservation than a $400 AR pistol.

This is about removing firearms that liberals don’t like from the season, plain and simple.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 2:44:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lokifox:

This is about removing firearms that liberals don't like from the season, plain and simple.
View Quote
Eh, maybe. I don't really buy that is the only factor at play in this specific issue.
To me it seems much more likely they are responding to feedback from archers and muzzleloader hunters by keeping 11 round semi autos out of the woods during the bow/crossbow/muzzleloader season.

Right or wrong, there are competing interest here.

A TC in .243 is different in rate and volume of fire than an AR pistol, and an AR pistol has different range limitations than a revolver.

If you exclude the looks of a firearm it seems to me an AR pistol Has much more in common with the 30-30s and SKS rifles sometimes used in firearms season. From an ethical take perspective, an AR pistol is kinda cheating in a handgun season. Just for the record I also think the TC and such chambered in rifle calibers don't belong in a handgun season. While we are on the subject, crossbows are kinda cheating in bow season, and they fit better in alternative methods.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 3:23:02 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Buckshot4U:

I disagree.  I think no bag limits would be bad.  I think year round seasons for everything under the sun would be bad.  I disagree with plenty of what MDC does, but I think that there have to be limits.  I hope that the limits and quotas are set up by science and not politics, but no doubt there is plenty of opportunity for politics to trump science in the decision making.  It's far from perfect, but I think it's a necessary evil.

I think the original intent of the various special seasons was to give folks who used other methods a chance to get out in the woods without firearms hunters.  You could argue that having that intention is wrong, but if there were no special seasons, archery and muzzleloaders would die a pretty quick death.  You could argue that it should be survival of the fittest and maybe archery and muzzleloaders need to die out.  You could also argue that a modern crossbow is more efficient than the sticks and strings that the Indians used, so an AR pistol is just the next level of progression.  I've got an AR pistol that I really enjoy shooting.  I bought it as a way to let me, family and friends hunt in Alternative Deer Season, but I always thought using it was way outside what the original intent of what Alternative Season was.

I hate government regulations as much as the next guy.  I love freedom as much as the next guy.  But when the government overlords tell me that they want me to quit hunting the king's deer with my AR pistol, in Alternative Deer Season, I'm going to have a tough time fighting and dying on that hill.  I guess if they push this through, then ramp it up and tell me that I can't use my AR rifle in rifle season everyone will be able to tell me "told ya so".
View Quote
I agree with you.

I should have typed that limiting the kind of pistol by changing the definition is wrong.

I see how you thought what you did but I was limiting my statement to the subject of the thread.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 3:56:39 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Deuskid:
I agree with you.

I should have typed that limiting the kind of pistol by changing the definition is wrong.

I see how you thought what you did but I was limiting my statement to the subject of the thread.  
View Quote
I wasn't trying to nitpick you, and I hear ya.  Last thing I want to do is to start a pissing match with anyone, I just figured I'd throw out a minority opinion.

The bottom line is that when things are restricted, ingenuity finds ways of pushing the restrictions to the limits.  Ingenuity brought us modern crossbows, muzzleloaders and AR pistols, and I appreciate all of them.  If the MDC changes the rules to exempt out AR pistols, ingenuity will find a way to push the new limit as well.  Whether I can hunt with my AR pistol or not, I'm still glad that I bought it, and I'll probably keep it either way.  It's a ton of fun and way more accurate than I ever thought it would be.  If the unwashed masses rise up and get the MDC to back off, I will continue hunting with my AR pistol and not feel the least bit guilty.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 5:17:52 PM EST
I don't know if you can open this without being a member, but here's another thread on this topic;

https://www.missouriwhitetails.com/threads/ar-pistols-no-more-in-alternative.236677/
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 6:17:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Eh, maybe. I don't really buy that is the only factor at play in this specific issue.
To me it seems much more likely they are responding to feedback from archers and muzzleloader hunters by keeping 11 round semi autos out of the woods during the bow/crossbow/muzzleloader season.

Right or wrong, there are competing interest here.

A TC in .243 is different in rate and volume of fire than an AR pistol, and an AR pistol has different range limitations than a revolver.

If you exclude the looks of a firearm it seems to me an AR pistol Has much more in common with the 30-30s and SKS rifles sometimes used in firearms season. From an ethical take perspective, an AR pistol is kinda cheating in a handgun season. Just for the record I also think the TC and such chambered in rifle calibers don't belong in a handgun season. While we are on the subject, crossbows are kinda cheating in bow season, and they fit better in alternative methods.
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Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Originally Posted By lokifox:

This is about removing firearms that liberals don't like from the season, plain and simple.
Eh, maybe. I don't really buy that is the only factor at play in this specific issue.
To me it seems much more likely they are responding to feedback from archers and muzzleloader hunters by keeping 11 round semi autos out of the woods during the bow/crossbow/muzzleloader season.

Right or wrong, there are competing interest here.

A TC in .243 is different in rate and volume of fire than an AR pistol, and an AR pistol has different range limitations than a revolver.

If you exclude the looks of a firearm it seems to me an AR pistol Has much more in common with the 30-30s and SKS rifles sometimes used in firearms season. From an ethical take perspective, an AR pistol is kinda cheating in a handgun season. Just for the record I also think the TC and such chambered in rifle calibers don't belong in a handgun season. While we are on the subject, crossbows are kinda cheating in bow season, and they fit better in alternative methods.
I'm not sure if you are aware of the performance of modern straight walled pistols, but there are many that can easily make ethical shots on deer at 150+ yards.

A 357 Maximum as a 150+ yard pistol.

A 10mm Auto with a red dot is easily capable of 100 yard shots.

A modern smokeless inline muzzle loader can make 250+ yard precision shots.

MDC is again at it with their bullshit where if you can pay you can play. Last year they took away landowner tags for people who can't afford $100,000+ pieces of property. Now they're attempting to take away an effective tool from hunters that HAS BEEN LEGALLY ALLOWED FOR AT LEAST FIVE YEARS.

The shit of the whole thing is yeah, it's great that many of us can afford to blow $1500 on a fancy new regulation compliant toy - but there are a lot more people that can't and MDC is kicking them out of the woods.

The deer population is still incredibly high and the number of hunters is dwindling. It is proven that lowering densities slows the spread of disease. Just what exactly is MDC trying to accomplish here? Furthermore, the cartridges I listed above are heavy recoiling and unpleasant to many people. Is MDC intentionally trying to cause people to wound deer with inferior cartridges or are they just trying to discourage people from hunting?
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 7:18:51 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lokifox:
Fuck the MDC on this.

Everyone needs to get their state reps involved.

To any MDC board members reading this - FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU.

They are trying to ban handguns that they don't deem cosmetically acceptable.
View Quote
This.  Fuck them.  They even admit that they are doing this absent any “issues or incident”(not that that is even legal or a reason).  This their attempt to restrict another AR.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 10:02:42 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lokifox:
I'm not sure if you are aware of the performance of modern straight walled pistols, but there are many that can easily make ethical shots on deer at 150+ yards.

A 357 Maximum as a 150+ yard pistol.

A 10mm Auto with a red dot is easily capable of 100 yard shots.

A modern smokeless inline muzzle loader can make 250+ yard precision shots.

MDC is again at it with their bullshit where if you can pay you can play. Last year they took away landowner tags for people who can't afford $100,000+ pieces of property. Now they're attempting to take away an effective tool from hunters that HAS BEEN LEGALLY ALLOWED FOR AT LEAST FIVE YEARS.

The shit of the whole thing is yeah, it's great that many of us can afford to blow $1500 on a fancy new regulation compliant toy - but there are a lot more people that can't and MDC is kicking them out of the woods.

The deer population is still incredibly high and the number of hunters is dwindling. It is proven that lowering densities slows the spread of disease. Just what exactly is MDC trying to accomplish here? Furthermore, the cartridges I listed above are heavy recoiling and unpleasant to many people. Is MDC intentionally trying to cause people to wound deer with inferior cartridges or are they just trying to discourage people from hunting?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lokifox:
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Originally Posted By lokifox:

This is about removing firearms that liberals don't like from the season, plain and simple.
Eh, maybe. I don't really buy that is the only factor at play in this specific issue.
To me it seems much more likely they are responding to feedback from archers and muzzleloader hunters by keeping 11 round semi autos out of the woods during the bow/crossbow/muzzleloader season.

Right or wrong, there are competing interest here.

A TC in .243 is different in rate and volume of fire than an AR pistol, and an AR pistol has different range limitations than a revolver.

If you exclude the looks of a firearm it seems to me an AR pistol Has much more in common with the 30-30s and SKS rifles sometimes used in firearms season. From an ethical take perspective, an AR pistol is kinda cheating in a handgun season. Just for the record I also think the TC and such chambered in rifle calibers don't belong in a handgun season. While we are on the subject, crossbows are kinda cheating in bow season, and they fit better in alternative methods.
I'm not sure if you are aware of the performance of modern straight walled pistols, but there are many that can easily make ethical shots on deer at 150+ yards.

A 357 Maximum as a 150+ yard pistol.

A 10mm Auto with a red dot is easily capable of 100 yard shots.

A modern smokeless inline muzzle loader can make 250+ yard precision shots.

MDC is again at it with their bullshit where if you can pay you can play. Last year they took away landowner tags for people who can't afford $100,000+ pieces of property. Now they're attempting to take away an effective tool from hunters that HAS BEEN LEGALLY ALLOWED FOR AT LEAST FIVE YEARS.

The shit of the whole thing is yeah, it's great that many of us can afford to blow $1500 on a fancy new regulation compliant toy - but there are a lot more people that can't and MDC is kicking them out of the woods.

The deer population is still incredibly high and the number of hunters is dwindling. It is proven that lowering densities slows the spread of disease. Just what exactly is MDC trying to accomplish here? Furthermore, the cartridges I listed above are heavy recoiling and unpleasant to many people. Is MDC intentionally trying to cause people to wound deer with inferior cartridges or are they just trying to discourage people from hunting?
The only people that think AR pistols are actually pistols are the dumb fucks at the ATF.

There's also a reason that MDC made an alternative methods season instead of another rifle season.

I don't know very many people that are capable of making 100+ yard shots with actual handguns or that would even be comfortable hunting with a handgun as their primary. Those limitations equalize with the other methods of the season.

As far as population control goes, I don't know the statistics. If MDC had reason to believe there was a problem, it would make sense for them to expand hunting seasons. Maybe they're not there yet or something.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 10:36:48 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
The only people that think AR pistols are actually pistols are the dumb fucks at the ATF.

There's also a reason that MDC made an alternative methods season instead of another rifle season.

I don't know very many people that are capable of making 100+ yard shots with actual handguns or that would even be comfortable hunting with a handgun as their primary. Those limitations equalize with the other methods of the season.

As far as population control goes, I don't know the statistics. If MDC had reason to believe there was a problem, it would make sense for them to expand hunting seasons. Maybe they're not there yet or something.
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Originally Posted By Bassgasm:
Originally Posted By lokifox:
Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Originally Posted By lokifox:

This is about removing firearms that liberals don't like from the season, plain and simple.
Eh, maybe. I don't really buy that is the only factor at play in this specific issue.
To me it seems much more likely they are responding to feedback from archers and muzzleloader hunters by keeping 11 round semi autos out of the woods during the bow/crossbow/muzzleloader season.

Right or wrong, there are competing interest here.

A TC in .243 is different in rate and volume of fire than an AR pistol, and an AR pistol has different range limitations than a revolver.

If you exclude the looks of a firearm it seems to me an AR pistol Has much more in common with the 30-30s and SKS rifles sometimes used in firearms season. From an ethical take perspective, an AR pistol is kinda cheating in a handgun season. Just for the record I also think the TC and such chambered in rifle calibers don't belong in a handgun season. While we are on the subject, crossbows are kinda cheating in bow season, and they fit better in alternative methods.
I'm not sure if you are aware of the performance of modern straight walled pistols, but there are many that can easily make ethical shots on deer at 150+ yards.

A 357 Maximum as a 150+ yard pistol.

A 10mm Auto with a red dot is easily capable of 100 yard shots.

A modern smokeless inline muzzle loader can make 250+ yard precision shots.

MDC is again at it with their bullshit where if you can pay you can play. Last year they took away landowner tags for people who can't afford $100,000+ pieces of property. Now they're attempting to take away an effective tool from hunters that HAS BEEN LEGALLY ALLOWED FOR AT LEAST FIVE YEARS.

The shit of the whole thing is yeah, it's great that many of us can afford to blow $1500 on a fancy new regulation compliant toy - but there are a lot more people that can't and MDC is kicking them out of the woods.

The deer population is still incredibly high and the number of hunters is dwindling. It is proven that lowering densities slows the spread of disease. Just what exactly is MDC trying to accomplish here? Furthermore, the cartridges I listed above are heavy recoiling and unpleasant to many people. Is MDC intentionally trying to cause people to wound deer with inferior cartridges or are they just trying to discourage people from hunting?
The only people that think AR pistols are actually pistols are the dumb fucks at the ATF.

There's also a reason that MDC made an alternative methods season instead of another rifle season.

I don't know very many people that are capable of making 100+ yard shots with actual handguns or that would even be comfortable hunting with a handgun as their primary. Those limitations equalize with the other methods of the season.

As far as population control goes, I don't know the statistics. If MDC had reason to believe there was a problem, it would make sense for them to expand hunting seasons. Maybe they're not there yet or something.
Wow.

Better redefine 75 years of precedent law to fit your sensibilities.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 11:02:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/12/2020 11:20:12 PM EST by KnowScot]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lokifox:

I'm not sure if you are aware of the performance of modern straight walled pistols, but there are many that can easily make ethical shots on deer at 150+ yards.

A 357 Maximum as a 150+ yard pistol.

A 10mm Auto with a red dot is easily capable of 100 yard shots.

A modern smokeless inline muzzle loader can make 250+ yard precision shots.
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Sure, but an AR pistol in 6.5 Grendel with an optic and an SBA3 is a 600 yard gun. And if the shooter misses they can send 10 more in a pretty rapid fashion. You see how that's different, right? Do you think the average bow hunter wants to share their season with that?

I think the point of an alternative methods season was to give hunters who wanted more of a stalking challenge an opportunity to get out and use equipment that has real limitations. With the advent of the AR pistol, the categories of "handguns" needed to be clarified because the AR pistol does not have the same weaknesses as a .44 Mag wheel gun.

Isn't there the possibility that the rule change is based on the capability of the firearms, and not political will?
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 12:06:06 AM EST
Am I correct in my understanding that they are just limiting pistols that are over 26” OAL?

If so, those aren’t pistols under the ATF’s definition either.  Over 26” is a firearm (other on 4473).  This is the reason they can have shockwaves, neither pistols nor long guns. An over 26” OAL length AR can have a vfg.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 5:28:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NOMAAM:
Am I correct in my understanding that they are just limiting pistols that are over 26” OAL?

If so, those aren’t pistols under the ATF’s definition either.  Over 26” is a firearm (other on 4473).  This is the reason they can have shockwaves, neither pistols nor long guns. An over 26” OAL length AR can have a vfg.
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Wrong. If it i designed to be fired with one hand it’s a pistol - period.

Two hands under 26” make it a NFA AOW. Plus some other random items.

26” is the “concealable” test.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 8:27:43 AM EST
MDC has pissed off a bunch of people in the last few years. Increasing acreage for landowner permits, banning hog hunting on public ground and now this.

A bunch of unelected bureaucrats shouldn’t be able to change the law without consequences.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 8:50:00 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 67Firebird:
I don't know if you can open this without being a member, but here's another thread on this topic;

https://www.missouriwhitetails.com/threads/ar-pistols-no-more-in-alternative.236677/
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WOW!!!!!!

I read about 7 pages of that. What a bunch of uninformed fudds.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 10:54:43 AM EST
Do some looking, over 26" is a firearm.  That's why you have Shockwaves, smooth-bore pistols are illegal.  Once you're over 26" it is legally a firearm.  There are tons of AR's with pistol braces and barrels that put them over 26" that are allowed to have vfg's.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 11:43:07 AM EST
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Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Sure, but an AR pistol in 6.5 Grendel with an optic and an SBA3 is a 600 yard gun. And if the shooter misses they can send 10 more in a pretty rapid fashion. You see how that's different, right? Do you think the average bow hunter wants to share their season with that?
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That's the kind of thinking that always bothers me. Somebody decides to do something, and thinks everyone else should be limited to doing the same thing. There's lots more than bows allowed during the Alt season, and people can bang away with revolvers and pistols all day, plus bow hunters have the entire archery season. The Alt season is only a small part of that.  Not to mention other seasons that are open at that time.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 12:59:12 PM EST
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Originally Posted By NOMAAM:
Do some looking, over 26" is a firearm.  That's why you have Shockwaves, smooth-bore pistols are illegal.  Once you're over 26" it is legally a firearm.  There are tons of AR's with pistol braces and barrels that put them over 26" that are allowed to have vfg's.
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Still wrong. The VFG makes it a firearm.

If it were under 26” with a VFG it would be an AOW.

Definition of a handgun per federal law does not account for barrel length or OAL.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-pistol

Smoothbore has some odd nuances that put them in random categories.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 2:41:44 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 67Firebird:

That's the kind of thinking that always bothers me. Somebody decides to do something, and thinks everyone else should be limited to doing the same thing. There's lots more than bows allowed during the Alt season, and people can bang away with revolvers and pistols all day, plus bow hunters have the entire archery season. The Alt season is only a small part of that.  Not to mention other seasons that are open at that time.
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Ok, but does a TC Encore pistol with a 26" .300 Win Mag barrel and a 5-25x56 optic on a tripod fit better in the alternative method season, or rifle season?

If your argument is that there should be the same methods of take for every deer season, fine, but if you agree that there should be an alternative methods season, why would you allow what would be one part away from being an SBR into the alternative method season?

I have no problems with AR Pistols or other people hunting with them, but they are a lot more like a rifle than they are like an alternative method.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 3:14:13 PM EST
Hell lets just go back to hunting with an atlatl or a bow made from Osage Orange for alternative season.  

Why is the hunting community (and gun community in general) so divided on what you should or should not own or use.  We are all ready restricted to 10 rounds no matter what type of firearm you use.

Use what ever you want to hunt with and leave everyone else alone on their choice.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 3:36:29 PM EST
I guess it just comes down to what "alternative season" means to you. To me, it is a place for hunters that want to use a tool that would have serious disadvantages in the rifle season.

A 10+1 AR10 pistol in .308 is superior to probably two thirds of the firearms used in rifle season.

If you think they should get rid of alternative season, and just have more firearms portion deer season in its place, ok, I get it. If you want an alternative season to exist at all, then why are you for firearms that have capabilities that are basically the same as a rifle? Why have two seasons?
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 3:40:22 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Ok, but does a TC Encore pistol with a 26" .300 Win Mag barrel and a 5-25x56 optic on a tripod fit better in the alternative method season, or rifle season?

If your argument is that there should be the same methods of take for every deer season, fine, but if you agree that there should be an alternative methods season, why would you allow what would be one part away from being an SBR into the alternative method season?

I have no problems with AR Pistols or other people hunting with them, but they are a lot more like a rifle than they are like an alternative method.
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Originally Posted By KnowScot:
Originally Posted By 67Firebird:

That's the kind of thinking that always bothers me. Somebody decides to do something, and thinks everyone else should be limited to doing the same thing. There's lots more than bows allowed during the Alt season, and people can bang away with revolvers and pistols all day, plus bow hunters have the entire archery season. The Alt season is only a small part of that.  Not to mention other seasons that are open at that time.
Ok, but does a TC Encore pistol with a 26" .300 Win Mag barrel and a 5-25x56 optic on a tripod fit better in the alternative method season, or rifle season?

If your argument is that there should be the same methods of take for every deer season, fine, but if you agree that there should be an alternative methods season, why would you allow what would be one part away from being an SBR into the alternative method season?

I have no problems with AR Pistols or other people hunting with them, but they are a lot more like a rifle than they are like an alternative method.
I don't care about any of that. It's legal, and gives more people the various opportunities that they want. I have no desire to decide on ways to help the gov't limit what people can do, just because it isn't the method that *I* would use. I don't understand the desire to control others, when it doesn't harm anyone.

Picture this;
Someone goes out to their blind during the next Alt season, and they're hunting with an 1800s flintlock pistol.

The property/field next his place has people shooting Crows, Coyotes, Quail, etc.

I'm six counties away, and get in my blind with my AR pistol. How are they diminished by that?
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 3:42:56 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KnowScot:
If you want an alternative season to exist at all, then why are you for firearms that have capabilities that are basically the same as a rifle? Why have two seasons?
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Why not? Why limit opportunities?  
If you want to hunt with the most primitive weapon, do it, but don't try to make me follow your choices.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 4:01:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/13/2020 4:14:32 PM EST by KnowScot]
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Originally Posted By 67Firebird:

Why not? Why limit opportunities?  
If you want to hunt with the most primitive weapon, do it, but don't try to make me follow your choices.
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I don't really understand what kind of alternative season you'd want. You'd like to use the same firearm you use in rifle season, but with a slightly different plastic bit on the end?

What is the purpose of the alternative season at that point? Why not just have more rifle season?

I'm not trying to make you hunt with a stick, I'm trying to understand what you think an alternative season should be.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 4:27:31 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 67Firebird:

I have no desire to decide on ways to help the gov't limit what people can do, just because it isn't the method that *I* would use. I don't understand the desire to control others, when it doesn't harm anyone.
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So why would you be for an alternative season? All it is is a way to limit what people can use as a method of take for that season. Are you ok with allowing shotguns for alternative season? Rifles?

What makes it alternative?
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 4:28:14 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KnowScot:
I don't really understand what kind of alternative season you'd want. The kind we have is pretty good.

What is the purpose of the alternative season at that point? Having more chances to shoot deer.

Why not just have more rifle season? Okay.

I'm not trying to make you hunt with a stick, I'm trying to understand what you think an alternative season should be.  You started a brief list of things that you don't think belong, but when I see those things I think *opportunities* rather than *that shouldn't be included.*
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Nobody, including the deer herd, is harmed by having more choices of weapons.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 4:36:43 PM EST
Ok, so I really don't get it. You are saying you DO want to be limited in method of take for alternative season, but you want that limitation to be a pistol brace?

I'm still not clear why you are not saying "there should be more rifle season and no alternative season"
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