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Posted: 4/5/2021 11:27:39 AM EDT
It was only a matter of time B4 we would have to deal with it . The population boom in the valley is showing no sign of slowing ,and now we may have a water problem.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/05/arizona-water-one-percenters  
Link Posted: 4/5/2021 12:14:08 PM EDT
I remember when I lived in Phoenix and driving through the older neighborhoods with irrigated yards.  I could very clearly feel the temperature drop.

Now can we start being selective as to who we allow to move in to our State?  It is not political, it is for the water...
Link Posted: 4/5/2021 2:58:37 PM EDT
That story is so full of BS!
0
Link Posted: 4/5/2021 8:19:59 PM EDT
Water has ALWAYS been a problem West of the Mississippi.  If you look at the history of any state as far back as you can go there have been water fights.
Link Posted: 4/6/2021 12:52:28 AM EDT
Weren't we already having an issue with water levels caused by all the copper and other mining operations?
Link Posted: 4/6/2021 1:51:04 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ashiha:
Weren't we already having an issue with water levels caused by all the copper and other mining operations?
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Nope
Link Posted: 4/6/2021 2:01:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By jdrautoworks:


Nope
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Yes, yes we were/ are. The process for extracting copper from ore uses a shit ton of water.
Link Posted: 4/6/2021 6:36:40 PM EDT
Can we start by putting caps on all the golf courses?
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 11:29:09 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By BeardownAZ:


Yes, yes we were/ are. The process for extracting copper from ore uses a shit ton of water.
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That I don't disagree with and Morenci uses the most amount of off site water in the state.  How ever I'd like to see how much water usage all golf courses use versus all mines, I would be a dollar we would see some very interesting results.  The SXEW process is mostly reclaimed/recycled and is the biggest user second is dust control, again a lot of water used but my remark was to effect of mining.  Look at all the studies done at Rosemont and Resolution, last I saw those permits were something like 95%+ reclaimed water, the biggest grip is redirection of waterways not usage.

However I'm no expert just been around a site or two and don't think our water issue has much of anything to do with mining operations.
Link Posted: 4/8/2021 6:11:06 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BeardownAZ:


Yes, yes we were/ are. The process for extracting copper from ore uses a shit ton of water.
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Originally Posted By BeardownAZ:
Originally Posted By jdrautoworks:


Nope


Yes, yes we were/ are. The process for extracting copper from ore uses a shit ton of water.



Where does that water come from and where does it go after they use it?

Water is constantly being recycle.

Water doesn’t leave the earth.

We will never run out of water.
Link Posted: 4/9/2021 3:34:19 AM EDT
I worked with a geologist back in 1998 or so and he said that Phoenix will be the largest ghost town ever because of the lack of water.
Link Posted: 4/10/2021 2:11:55 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 3uzzard:
I worked with a geologist back in 1998 or so and he said that Phoenix will be the largest ghost town ever because of the lack of water.
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Fine by me.  
Link Posted: 4/11/2021 9:46:10 PM EDT
this i would like to see happen. i;m surrounded by golf courses and they get watered 2x daily plus all the ponds they have, not really necessary.
Link Posted: 4/12/2021 6:18:46 AM EDT
Golf courses are an amazing consumer of water, and most of it is fresh water because golf course owners don't want to use gray water to water their grass. USGA says the average water use for golf course irrigation in the U.S. was estimated to be 2,312,701 acre-feet per year.

Morenci copper mine uses approximately 13,0000 acre-feet per year for copper production. Something like 5.4 gallons per pound of copper.

http://www.patagoniaalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Water-Consumption-at-Copper-Mines-in-Arizona.pdf

The Princess golf resort in Scottsdale is about 450 acres, and consumes 4 acre-feet per acre per day (average for SW US golf courses), or 1800 per day or 657,000 acre-feet per year.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Water%20Resource%20Center/how-much-water-does-golf-use.pdf

(1 acre-foot = 325,851 U.S. gallons)
Link Posted: 4/12/2021 3:31:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By mjrowley:



Where does that water come from and where does it go after they use it?

Water is constantly being recycle.

Water doesn’t leave the earth.

We will never run out of water.
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At least not until we lose our atmosphere.

But his point is more that we use it faster than we get it back in the aquifers.
Link Posted: 4/14/2021 10:20:30 AM EDT
We needn't panic , but it is clearly something to consider addressing and being proactive B4 it becomes a major problem.
Link Posted: 4/14/2021 1:28:08 PM EDT
A: We've been arguing about water usage since the 1970s. It's still not fixed, and look at how big the Valley has become.

B: We ship water from the Colorado River to the Phoenix area. Lose the pumps, and we lose a huge chunk of water. Without huge infrastructure and electric power, we can't sustain 4 million people in the summer heat.

C: I don't play golf, so I'm perfectly fine with shutting them all down & turning them into rifle ranges.

Link Posted: 4/14/2021 5:14:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/14/2021 5:16:09 PM EDT by mr_h]
on a side note, farther south in the state.....when i was at U of A in the early 90's there was a geologist that claimed he discovered a vast aquifer in the southeast corner of AZ that extended into NM and into mexico. he claimed it was the size of one of the smaller Great Lakes.

the rumor was....he was told to not go public with that info but he did anyway.

about a month or 2 later i think it was, he was flying his private plane into mexico and it "crashed" due to pilot error or mechanical. alot of talk around campus was that he was killed for going public and that story is no where to be found now.

if anyone else remembers this, post up. thats the best my memory could bring back.
Link Posted: 4/14/2021 6:22:00 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mak_380:
A: We've been arguing about water usage since the 1970s. It's still not fixed, and look at how big the Valley has become.

B: We ship water from the Colorado River to the Phoenix area. Lose the pumps, and we lose a huge chunk of water. Without huge infrastructure and electric power, we can't sustain 4 million people in the summer heat.

C: I don't play golf, so I'm perfectly fine with shutting them all down & turning them into rifle ranges.

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I agree , less golf courses ,more shooting ranges . Ben Avery has become a drag even B4 the china virus .
Link Posted: 4/18/2021 10:55:39 AM EDT
What and who to believe ? Either way we need to figure it out. https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/US-West-prepares-for-possible-1st-water-shortage-16108670.php  
Link Posted: 5/1/2021 9:09:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/1/2021 1:59:25 PM EDT
To all you golf haters - F O.  You can take my 9 iron from my cold dead hands.  
Link Posted: 5/2/2021 2:28:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By jimmybcool:
To all you golf haters - F O.  You can take my 9 iron from my cold dead hands.  
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More like your "dead, dehydrated husk". 😁
Link Posted: 5/2/2021 9:02:57 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By jimmybcool:
To all you golf haters - F O.  You can take my 9 iron from my cold dead hands.  
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Yep...I will live and die by my gap wedge.  (9am tee time)
Link Posted: 5/2/2021 10:23:02 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mak_380:

More like your "dead, dehydrated husk". 😁
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Cow Pasture Pool players make great Soylent Green.
Link Posted: 5/3/2021 12:19:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By yipykyah_mf:
Cow Pasture Pool players make great Soylent Green.
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I pick up more used golf clubs that way....
Link Posted: 5/3/2021 5:25:08 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By jdrautoworks:


That I don't disagree with and Morenci uses the most amount of off site water in the state.  How ever I'd like to see how much water usage all golf courses use versus all mines, I would be a dollar we would see some very interesting results.  The SXEW process is mostly reclaimed/recycled and is the biggest user second is dust control, again a lot of water used but my remark was to effect of mining.  Look at all the studies done at Rosemont and Resolution, last I saw those permits were something like 95%+ reclaimed water, the biggest grip is redirection of waterways not usage.

However I'm no expert just been around a site or two and don't think our water issue has much of anything to do with mining operations.
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Lived there and live in another now mining town close by. City water employees will tell you a different story of how when the new mine opened up the difference and lengths they must go now to get water for the town. They've told some wells are now completely dry. How are they reclaiming water??
Link Posted: 5/3/2021 5:35:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By mjrowley:



Where does that water come from and where does it go after they use it?

Water is constantly being recycle.

Water doesn’t leave the earth.

We will never run out of water.
View Quote


Pumped by huge wells and mixed with an assortment of chemicals to include sulfuric acid, kerosene and others. Sprayed on dumps, then collected underground and pumped to tank houses. Cant reuse that water for much of anything else
Link Posted: 5/3/2021 9:51:53 PM EDT
We are in our first official tier one water shortage. AZ is getting a smaller allotment of water this year and a contingency plan is being implemented. Lack of snow pack in the rockies hurt lake mead.
Link Posted: 5/4/2021 10:53:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MP5_guy:


The Princess golf resort in Scottsdale is about 450 acres, and consumes 4 acre-feet per acre per day (average for SW US golf courses), or 1800 per day or 657,000 acre-feet per year.

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Water%20Resource%20Center/how-much-water-does-golf-use.pdf

(1 acre-foot = 325,851 U.S. gallons)
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@MP5_guy
You misquoted that number. If that was correct then they flood the golf course too the depth of 4ft of water every day. The actual number from your reference is 4 acre-feet per acre per year.
Link Posted: 5/5/2021 2:11:05 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By BeardownAZ:


Lived there and live in another now mining town close by. City water employees will tell you a different story of how when the new mine opened up the difference and lengths they must go now to get water for the town. They've told some wells are now completely dry. How are they reclaiming water??
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I could be wrong but there is not water in Safford (the mine) that is coming from wells, however a ton comes from Morenci that does have a ton of pump houses and some interesting water exchanges across the state.

Again no expert on but I've yet to see any city/town/county drill their own wells, I don't doubt the water table has dropped but I'm guessing it's more to do with lack of rain/snow than mining since the entire state is having the same issue.

There are plenty of mine plans that are public that include water surveys, SXEW and ROM processed are in those plans and there biggest loss is evaporation that is covered by internal water sources on site.  Yes one could argue if the mine was not there then the water would not be used.  Again however working with a lot of geologists and mine engineers over the years I find that unlikely.  Mines are primarily on a fault line, hence why the natural water is there and rarely would naturally leave that site.

As far as reclaiming the water again look into the SXEW/ROM process as well as concentrator operations, all of that water is reused and kept on site (recycled and only evaporation loss).  Side question what other chemicals are added to the water other than sulfuric acid?  The most recent proof of water on site regulations is the damn failure at Safford back around 2010 if I recall correctly.  

I will say years ago this industry most likely did not do the environment any favors but now they run cleaner that most any other industry.  Hell even saw a study once that said a popular dinning establishment that rhymes with Denny's creates more environmental pollution that all mines in the US and creates more waste than the automotive industry.  I'll have to dig that one up because it blew my mind, also outside of water what is really amazing is a 3,000ish horse power diesel engine in a 1.3 million pound machine can produce less emissions than a 1971 small block chevy...

Our water issues is not from mining, may be a factor but very small at best...  Biggest issue is 3ish million people living in a desert that is in a drought, only has two live sources of water that are dependent on snow pack hundreds of miles away and everyone want's a green lawn and a park with a splash pad and water slide...

It amazes me to this day with all the homes being built they put a lawn in (some communities mandate it) and landscape with non-native vegetation. I get it, its the USA and damnit if I want a lawn I get one and so on...  I'll admit I'm one that does myself...  It'll be a interesting future when you can give away a home in the valley(s) in the not so distant future.
Link Posted: 5/5/2021 3:25:30 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Rich_V:


@MP5_guy
You misquoted that number. If that was correct then they flood the golf course too the depth of 4ft of water every day. The actual number from your reference is 4 acre-feet per acre per year.
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You're right, I just re-read that. I shouldn't post when tired. :)
Link Posted: 5/5/2021 11:21:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2021 11:22:35 AM EDT by LS1POWERED]
Was talking to a guy who works for CAP, he said in 2 years all those farms in the west valley are being shut down because their water usage is unsustainable, more subdivisions to replace them.. no idea on water usage of  a farm vs houses but I hate to see our food production leave, prob to Mexico to never return.

He also said the large city’s around Phoenix will introduce some water restrictions next year if our reserves are not replenished.
Link Posted: 5/5/2021 11:54:39 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By LS1POWERED:
Was talking to a guy who works for CAP, he said in 2 years all those farms in the west valley are being shut down because their water usage is unsustainable, more subdivisions to replace them.. no idea on water usage of  a farm vs houses but I hate to see our food production leave, prob to Mexico to never return.

He also said the large city’s around Phoenix will introduce some water restrictions next year if our reserves are not replenished.
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I wonder if cities will start incentivizing the draining of backyard pools?
Link Posted: 5/5/2021 5:43:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By azjeeper:

I wonder if cities will start incentivizing the draining of backyard pools?
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Pay e enough and I'll fill mine in.  All I use it for is after golf fall into it to drop body temp and float for 20 minutes.  Then yardwork.  Then back in to float.  I spend more time keeping it clean and chemicals balanced than in it.  I could make do with the hose.  
Link Posted: 5/5/2021 7:27:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By jimmybcool:


Pay e enough and I'll fill mine in.  All I use it for is after golf fall into it to drop body temp and float for 20 minutes.  Then yardwork.  Then back in to float.  I spend more time keeping it clean and chemicals balanced than in it.  I could make do with the hose.  
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Originally Posted By jimmybcool:
Originally Posted By azjeeper:

I wonder if cities will start incentivizing the draining of backyard pools?


Pay e enough and I'll fill mine in.  All I use it for is after golf fall into it to drop body temp and float for 20 minutes.  Then yardwork.  Then back in to float.  I spend more time keeping it clean and chemicals balanced than in it.  I could make do with the hose.  

Same!
Link Posted: 5/6/2021 6:11:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2021 6:14:14 PM EDT by PatriotAr15]
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Originally Posted By azjeeper:

I wonder if cities will start incentivizing the draining of backyard pools?
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Do pools even use that much water???
The only water loss, is caused by evaporation... which also happens at the reservoir anyway.

I think if they *REALLY* want to reduce water usage, they should start incentivizing people to switch from green landscapes to xeriscaping. Perhaps give people with green lawns, some vouchers to pay landscapers to bring in more desert friendly plants, tress and fake grass?
It seems to me that lawn-care is probably one of the biggest things we spend water on.
Link Posted: 5/6/2021 6:55:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By PatriotAr15:
Do pools even use that much water???
The only water loss, is caused by evaporation... which also happens at the reservoir anyway.
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Pools don't actually lose that much water to evaporation, especially compared to what a lawn loses.
Link Posted: 5/6/2021 9:02:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2021 9:07:52 PM EDT by PatriotAr15]
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Originally Posted By lew:


Pools don't actually lose that much water to evaporation, especially compared to what a lawn loses.
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My water bill barely changed when I had my pool restored to a usable condition (it was left empty, and the pool pump was missing when I bought the house).

Honestly, If the government decided Im not allowed to have a pool... I'm just going to leave AZ. AZ isn't worth living in, if you can't have a pool. I use my pool, and enjoy it greatly. Best thing about AZ is how long our pool season is. I honestly wish America had a state in a tropical region, with year-round pool weather... that wasn't run by far left assholes (i.e. not Hawaii)

I love swimming and lounging in the pool.
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