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Posted: 4/20/2022 10:46:19 AM EDT
So I went in to a fairly new gun store here in the Watertown area recently...was looking to trade one of my glocks towards something else.  Turned out this shop will only do consignments...seemed weird but I went with it and ended up taking slightly less than I would have otherwise.  But while I was there, I asked to see and handle a few of their pistols in stock.  Counter guy INSISTED that he HAD to physically hold my permit while I looked at pistols claiming it was a "new ATF rule".  That one I know is BS but maybe something with NYS?  

I went back yesterday to pick up an LR308 Aero lower I had shipped to them from Gunbroker.  I only used them because they were already on file with GB and closest to me.  When I got there, I told the woman behind the counter what I was there for and started getting my drivers license out.  Before she had even seen any form of ID from me, she says "I NEED to see something with your full middle name on it, its a new ATF rule."  I said, I'm sorry?  I've never heard that before, when did that start?  She claimed it's been a thing for at least 2 years .  I told her that I'd bought many guns in that time frame never once had to show anything more than a DL (and PP) and neither have my full middle name on it.  She refused to let me start the 4473 until I had something.  She suggested a hunting license, library card, or school ID (I'm almost 40).  I finally remember that I had my SS card on me with my middle name.  Then I asked her what would happen to someone without a middle name?  She wouldn't answer that.  I don't think I'll be back there.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 11:50:08 AM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By CopyPasta:
...she says "I NEED to see something with your full middle name on it, its a new ATF rule."  I said, I'm sorry?  I've never heard that before, when did that start?  She claimed it's been a thing for at least 2 years .  I told her that I'd bought many guns in that time frame never once had to show anything more than a DL (and PP) and neither have my full middle name on it.  She refused to let me start the 4473 until I had something.  She suggested a hunting license, library card, or school ID (I'm almost 40).  I finally remember that I had my SS card on me with my middle name.  Then I asked her what would happen to someone without a middle name?  She wouldn't answer that.
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Weird. The full middle name thing is a requirement for a "Real ID" and "Enhanced ID" but who knows about the ATF. Would not surprise me the want some kind of real verified identification now rather than the kind of license they give to anyone with a pulse.

I got my "Real ID" drivers license (has a star in the upper right corner) in 2019 when I renewed. My previous non "Real ID" license had only my middle initial. I did a document dump at the clerk's window as part of the verification process and they put my full middle name on my license record. Funny thing was while I was doing that, the person at the next window was also going through the process but they did not have a middle name. That was causing some issue with the system as it is basically set up under the assumption everyone has a middle name. Funny thing is my maternal grandparents came over from Germany in the 1920's and they did not have middle names. Would have given them some issues now too.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 12:11:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
Weird. The full middle name thing is a requirement for a "Real ID" and "Enhanced ID" but who knows about the ATF. Would not surprise me the want some kind of real verified identification now rather than the kind of license they give to anyone with a pulse.

I got my "Real ID" drivers license (has a star in the upper right corner) in 2019 when I renewed. My previous non "Real ID" license had only my middle initial. I did a document dump at the clerk's window as part of the verification process and they put my full middle name on my license record. Funny thing was while I was doing that, the person at the next window was also going through the process but they did not have a middle name. That was causing some issue with the system as it is basically set up under the assumption everyone has a middle name. Funny thing is my maternal grandparents came over from Germany in the 1920's and they did not have middle names. Would have given them some issues now too.
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Exactly, which makes me think more that she was talking out her ass or the owner is super paranoid.  I also asked before I filled out the 4473 about my first name.  Obviously persec but my first name is very unique and hyphenated.  Only official document I have that has let me use my first name as given on my birth certificate was my passport.  State DL and DOCS ID both remove the hyphen and don't use a space.  My SS card has no hyphen but a space in my first name.  When I had a FL non resident CCW they removed the hyphen and put a forward slash .  I said to her, "since we're being super critical on this, how do you want me to write my first name down?" and all I got back from her was that blank stare that comes from mental processing that won't finish any time soon.

I get being careful with your business but it's shit like this and the other guy near me that stops people at his door and basically verbally pats them down, checks temps and throws a mask at them before letting them in that turns people off from coming to their stores.  I don't think he actually does any real business anymore but he keeps his "Open" sign on.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 12:58:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CopyPasta:
...or the owner is super paranoid.
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I would go with this. Since FJB unleashed the ATF on a vendetta against FFL's, they are yanking licenses for the most minor paperwork issues now. Stories on Ammoland, FPC and GOA about minor paperwork snafu's now putting FFL's out of business. I recall when Clinton eliminated a huge number of FFL's in the 1990's (with the blessing of many dealers who hated the competition). Now it looks like they hope to get rid of most of the remaining ones too.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 3:44:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: forensicgun] [#4]
Lots of shops are doing consignments only right now. It saves them from having to tie up money on inventory at a time when the market is tough. As for the pistol permit rule, the ATF has no rule Im aware of related to FFls and how they need to hold NYS pistol permits. Some shops have policies like that to cut down on folks asking for weapons that they cant legally possess. Its the same as a shop asking to see LEO creds before showing you a LEO only firearm.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 3:52:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By forensicgun:
Lots of shops are doing consignments only right now. It saves them from having to tie up money on inventory at a time when the market is tough. As for the pistol permit rule, the ATF has no rule Im aware of related to FFls and how they need to hold NYS pistol permits. Some shops have policies like that to cut down on folks asking for weapons that they cant legally possess. Its the same as a shop asking to see LEO creds before showing you a LEO only firearm.
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I get that, I have no problem showing my PP or my badge, letting them inspect the PP if they really need to.  But to be told he had to have physical possession of it while I handled a pistol was ludicrous.

The consignment part makes sense, it was just new to me and unexpected.  I'm no business owner but I thought I'd always heard that used guns made more money for a shop than new.  Is that not true?
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 5:40:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tc556guy] [#6]
The ID rule has been in effect since November 2020.
Most states licenses display the full legal name of the bearer. I guess that NY allowing initials is not the norm for the rest of the country. ATF doesn't consider initials sufficient to ID the buyer.

The ID presented must display the full legal name spelled out, no initials, and must have the residential address, no po boxes. Supplemental id such as a birth certificate or passport can be used in conjunction with the license.

They're starting to whack FFLs on inspections for this issue, so if you've been going through FFLs who haven't been requiring the full legal name, they'll find out on their next inspection. An FFL in the next county over caught a fine during their last compliance inspection.
You can get an enhanced license through DMV that has your full legal name spelled out
Your county may issue you a pistol permit with your full legal name.
Even a sheriff's ID with your full legal name counts as government issued photo id
Or bring along a birth certificate or passport.
An actual birth certificate, not those little cards from the hospital with your baby footprints in ink. I had one guy bring that, he thought it was his birth certificate
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 9:29:50 PM EDT
[#7]
I would be curious to the name of the "Shop" as there seems to be several new FFL's operating in the Ft. Drum area and pretty much what I've heard is there are jackasses who like to use their own policy or lack of proper knowledge as "Law" when it just isn't so, along with multiple stories of bad business deals/screwings.  There IS a Gunsmith/Gun Shop in the area that's been in business well over 35 years, and he can be a curmudgeon when people try filling him with bullshit, but he's damn good, and they've made a good living with a solid Business.

Handguns: In NY one cannot handle a Handgun without having a Licenses, and Licenses from other States don't mean jack-shit in NY.
Most all Dealers ask to see the Licenses, just so they don't get jammed up with NYSP shenanigans or wasting time with someone ineligible. Referring back to "policy being called Law" they might want to hang onto it, but in reality someone that's gone through the abject bullshit to get a NYS Licenses isn't likely to take off with it or do something illegal.
Dealers: Not every FFL (Federal Licenses) has a New York State Dealers Licenses, the NYS Licenses is required to legally acquire and dispose of Handguns in NY, that Licenses has to be renewed in its entirety every five years (complete packet) and the applicant has to have a FFL (C&R won't do) so it's such a PITA that Dealers are uber careful.

If you're on Drum, AAFES has a FFL and accepts transfers as does FMWR.
There's a guy in the Thousand Islands area that's a true asshole that claims everyone's AR-15/MSR is "illegal" and won't let you in his Shop with it unless HE built it (and of course the ones he sells are legal) think he finally closed up.
There's a Shop near Ft. Drum that talks big, but hasn't got anything.
Supposedly there's a new FFL/Shop in Calcium....I've no experience with, but friends have told me they won't go back.
Ammo manufacturer (reloader) in Philadelphia area that by report stuck it a few asses with 5.56 and the customer supplying the components. Not my dealings, so its hearsay.
Heard something about a new FFL near downtown Watertown....nothing back from the Cafe-Racers.
There's a guy in Burrville that opened a small Outdoors Store with Bait & tackle, dozen or so guns and whatever ammunition he could get from suppliers...good kid, seems fair with prices AND you can actually get fresh Live Bait (only place in the area I know of)
Farther down I-81 there are two Stores in Mannsville: One a mile off 81 and the other about two miles from the exit, first one is pretty well stocked and good on prices (given what things are going for now) and the other guy is playing catch up out of his barn.
Believe it or not, there are a LOT of FFL's in the North Country and a lot of them that are no longer operational or that will accept transfers so do speak to them first before having guns sent there.

FIRST question NICS asks when processing a Check is Does the information on the Government Issued Identification match the 4473?
The question of Middle Name IS answered in the instructions, some people really have a single Letter, some "NMN" for no middle name, and the way it appears on your Govt. issued document IS the way it needs to be written. (and DO try to write legible as the Clerk has to read and transcribe it by voice or computer entry, excepting the DIY counter Tablets)
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 10:03:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fp1201:
I would be curious to the name of the "Shop" as there seems to be several new FFL's operating in the Ft. Drum area and pretty much what I've heard is there are jackasses who like to use their own policy or lack of proper knowledge as "Law" when it just isn't so, along with multiple stories of bad business deals/screwings.  There IS a Gunsmith/Gun Shop in the area that's been in business well over 35 years, and he can be a curmudgeon when people try filling him with bullshit, but he's damn good, and they've made a good living with a solid Business.

Handguns: In NY one cannot handle a Handgun without having a Licenses, and Licenses from other States don't mean jack-shit in NY.
Most all Dealers ask to see the Licenses, just so they don't get jammed up with NYSP shenanigans or wasting time with someone ineligible. Referring back to "policy being called Law" they might want to hang onto it, but in reality someone that's gone through the abject bullshit to get a NYS Licenses isn't likely to take off with it or do something illegal.
Dealers: Not every FFL (Federal Licenses) has a New York State Dealers Licenses, the NYS Licenses is required to legally acquire and dispose of Handguns in NY, that Licenses has to be renewed in its entirety every five years (complete packet) and the applicant has to have a FFL (C&R won't do) so it's such a PITA that Dealers are uber careful.

If you're on Drum, AAFES has a FFL and accepts transfers as does FMWR.
There's a guy in the Thousand Islands area that's a true asshole that claims everyone's AR-15/MSR is "illegal" and won't let you in his Shop with it unless HE built it (and of course the ones he sells are legal) think he finally closed up.
There's a Shop near Ft. Drum that talks big, but hasn't got anything.
Supposedly there's a new FFL/Shop in Calcium....I've no experience with, but friends have told me they won't go back.
Ammo manufacturer (reloader) in Philadelphia area that by report stuck it a few asses with 5.56 and the customer supplying the components. Not my dealings, so its hearsay.
Heard something about a new FFL near downtown Watertown....nothing back from the Cafe-Racers.
There's a guy in Burrville that opened a small Outdoors Store with Bait & tackle, dozen or so guns and whatever ammunition he could get from suppliers...good kid, seems fair with prices AND you can actually get fresh Live Bait (only place in the area I know of)
Farther down I-81 there are two Stores in Mannsville: One a mile off 81 and the other about two miles from the exit, first one is pretty well stocked and good on prices (given what things are going for now) and the other guy is playing catch up out of his barn.
Believe it or not, there are a LOT of FFL's in the North Country and a lot of them that are no longer operational or that will accept transfers so do speak to them first before having guns sent there.

FIRST question NICS asks when processing a Check is Does the information on the Government Issued Identification match the 4473?
The question of Middle Name IS answered in the instructions, some people really have a single Letter, some "NMN" for no middle name, and the way it appears on your Govt. issued document IS the way it needs to be written. (and DO try to write legible as the Clerk has to read and transcribe it by voice or computer entry, excepting the DIY counter Tablets)
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We've met, G.  I've utilized the new name change feature here.  You came to my place in EM and helped me with my first AR years back.  I know the shop you associate with well, D&M can be a bit abrasive at times lol but its usually when their times being wasted.  The guy from TI and I are very well acquainted due to his BS and trash talking local LE.  He still has his Open sign on, but as you said, I don't think he does anything anymore.  I had high hopes when he opened since he's a 2 minute drive from me.

The shop I'm referring to is the one in Calcium.  Nice place, good selection of MSR stuff but this stuff will make me not go back.  Another incident with them I didn't mention was the same day as I put the Glock on consignment.  I was having trouble getting my latest build (350 legend) sighted in.  They advertised that they had started doing scope mounting and bore sighting, so I took it with me and was going to have them check my scope and remount if needed and boresight it.  Well, the 3 people working there when I came in about had a litter of kittens when they saw my rifle with the collapsible stock and damn near screamed at me in unison to "Get that non compliant gun out of this store NOW!" and continued to go on and on while I calmly tried to tell them I was LE and if they'd give me a second to set the rifle down I'd show them my ID.  

It's nice to see more dealers and shops popping up in the area but I'm not impressed so far.  I've been to the first one off 81 in Mannsville, but not the other yet.  They were nice people and had a nice shop.  I've talked to the guy in Philly and he talked a big game, claimed to have all the hot calibers when the shortage was really bad last year but I never made it out that way.  I really like the guy in Gouverneur, laid back, good stock and good prices.  Sucks he's almost an hour away from me.
Link Posted: 4/20/2022 11:07:59 PM EDT
[#9]
I kinda wondered....
Shop in Gouverneur is said to be a good one, and looking at his FB page I'd agree.

As far as legality, and as you know we've discussed it ad nauseam and it comes down to the gray area where there's no case to point to, the Bullet-Button/fixed magazine thing has been going on in NY for nine years and unless you make yourself the subject of investigation you're not likely to have any problems with a MSR fitted with one....the logic of a fixed magazine has held scrutiny.

The same outfit in Calcium told said friend that his stripper lower could no be made into a Handgun, when all that's really needed is to be P-12'd in and out, then comply with the 51oz rule OR fix a Magazine in place.
Either way, I've tired of trying to help other Businesses or even preaching the gospel, if they think what's being done is illegal then walk away.
Link Posted: 4/25/2022 6:46:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Dear Lord guys... It has gotten that bad hasn't it?

Glad I got out of dodge when I did
Link Posted: 4/26/2022 8:08:02 AM EDT
[#11]
I had intended to buy a rifle on sale at Runnings last December and they informed me of the middle initial/name requirement before handing me the rifle to look at.  Very telling when they start with it.  I have purchased many pistols/rifles in the last 2 years (yes I know it might be an issue) without the problem. I took my business elsewhere.

In my many years of living in the north country the vast majority of gun stores have the “soup nazi” arrogance about them.  It is rare that to find someone behind the counter that actually wants to help you find what you want.  I had good luck with the Gander Mountain when it existed.  Lots of friendly people willing to help when your number got called.  

When I purchased a Glock 34MOS a few years back the model was new to the brand.  Not just announced new but widely available new in big stores and online.  I went to a popular local store and asked about ordering one.  I was told there is no such thing and showed a 8 year old catalog to prove it.  I asked it actually did exist can I order it?  The lady said she would call Glock and I should stop back in.  Can you call me?  Nope!  I ordered it online and had it transferred through another dealer in Lafargeville  area.  I was successfull but had to listen to preaching about why Glocks suck and what a waste of time it is to put a red dot on a pistol.  

I could go on forever.  My best guess is there are a bunch of assholes going around pissing off gun dealers before I go in.  Maybe it’s a function of the BS laws.  There are so many law enforcement officers in the area some dealers only sell to them or at least prefer them.  

 I travel for work and very often frequent gun stores in free states to look at the fun stuff.  I never ran in to the attitude anywhere else.
Link Posted: 4/26/2022 8:31:21 AM EDT
[#12]
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Originally Posted By Aubertine:
I had intended to buy a rifle on sale at Runnings last December and they informed me of the middle initial/name requirement before handing me the rifle to look at.  Very telling when they start with it.  I have purchased many pistols/rifles in the last 2 years (yes I know it might be an issue) without the problem. I took my business elsewhere.
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So you're faulting the store for trying to adhere to the rules?
The fact that other stores were not adhering to the rules and you skated through on transfers there doesn't make this Runnings place the bad guy.
You can upgrade your drivers license to the enhanced license or bring a combination of documents in for the transfer that meet the requirements
Link Posted: 4/26/2022 10:33:38 AM EDT
[#13]
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Originally Posted By tc556guy:

So you're faulting the store for trying to adhere to the rules?
The fact that other stores were not adhering to the rules and you skated through on transfers there doesn't make this Runnings place the bad guy.
You can upgrade your drivers license to the enhanced license or bring a combination of documents in for the transfer that meet the requirements
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What rule requires the ID show a full middle name?
Link Posted: 4/26/2022 10:43:01 AM EDT
[#14]
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Originally Posted By Aubertine:

What rule requires the ID show a full middle name?
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The 4471 line 9 requires the buyers full legal name unless an initial only or NMN is indicated. The ID must match the information on line 9; when the background check is called in they even ask if the ID exactly matches whats on the 4473.
When I first started hearing about this change a couple of years ago, I called my current inspector and he verified that that was the interpretation they'd be going with moving forward.
And one of the gun stores in the next county got dinged on this issue during their last inspection so yeah, as an FFL its something I'm enforcing on my transfers.
Link Posted: 4/26/2022 12:37:14 PM EDT
[#15]
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Originally Posted By tc556guy:


The 4471 line 9 requires the buyers full legal name unless an initial only or NMN is indicated. The ID must match the information on line 9; when the background check is called in they even ask if the ID exactly matches whats on the 4473.
When I first started hearing about this change a couple of years ago, I called my current inspector and he verified that that was the interpretation they'd be going with moving forward.
And one of the gun stores in the next county got dinged on this issue during their last inspection so yeah, as an FFL its something I'm enforcing on my transfers.
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The part that confuses me, is that they want a second ID to prove your middle name, ok I get that.  But then they want your full middle name on the 4473.  But my main form of ID, my DL, doesn't have my middle name, therefore doesn't match.  Wouldn't that violate this new rule of theirs?  The shop in my OP only wrote down NYS DL for ID provided.  No sarcasm intended.
Link Posted: 4/26/2022 1:20:07 PM EDT
[#16]
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Originally Posted By CopyPasta:
But my main form of ID, my DL, doesn't have my middle name, therefore doesn't match.  Wouldn't that violate this new rule of theirs?  The shop in my OP only wrote down NYS DL for ID provided.
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It sounds like you have a Standard New York State drivers license. The Real ID or Enhanced require your full legal name.

As I mentioned above, when I renewed in 2019 I opted for the Real ID. My previous license, which was issued before these new licenses were created, simply had my middle initial. Real ID required my full middle name as it appears on my birth certificate. Since Real ID is the standard the feds require now for accessing federal buildings and boarding a plane, I can understand BATFE mandating it too.
Link Posted: 4/26/2022 1:38:34 PM EDT
[#17]
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Originally Posted By CopyPasta:
The part that confuses me, is that they want a second ID to prove your middle name, ok I get that.  But then they want your full middle name on the 4473.  But my main form of ID, my DL, doesn't have my middle name, therefore doesn't match.  Wouldn't that violate this new rule of theirs?  The shop in my OP only wrote down NYS DL for ID provided.  No sarcasm intended.
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That's why you bring supplemental id such as a birth certificate or passport that has the information that's missing from the driver's license
Link Posted: 4/27/2022 5:04:18 PM EDT
[#18]
The incrementalism and demand for more through investigations, positive identification, and improvements in the NICS system have to be factors here.

Good help is damn hard to find, and sometimes the person behind the counter lacks the life experience necessary to do their job and not come off as a total asshole, then again given some of the People you encounter while working in a Gun Store make it a miracle they don't get shot.

FWIW: Those who know me know I don't exactly have a common name, but every time I fill out a 4473 I'm put on delay/further review....I have a UPIN issued by the FBI, FFL, Class A CDL, Pilots Licenses, FAA registration, FCC Registration, CCW in three different States, and until recently a CAC card granting access to Government installations around the World, so WTF!

Back to the 4473: when I first started filling them out, you could bring a copy of any Utility Bill, Bank Statement, or even the Dealer could verify that he knew you and it was good to go! It's come a long way in 40 years, and before we're dead it'll be a hell of a lot more intrusive.  
Link Posted: 4/28/2022 10:35:17 AM EDT
[#19]
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Originally Posted By fp1201:
Back to the 4473: when I first started filling them out, you could bring a copy of any Utility Bill, Bank Statement, or even the Dealer could verify that he knew you and it was good to go! It's come a long way in 40 years, and before we're dead it'll be a hell of a lot more intrusive.  
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I remember when my non-picture drivers license was good to go. Of course I also had to fill out a 4473 every time I bought ammo
Link Posted: 4/28/2022 1:24:19 PM EDT
[#20]
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Originally Posted By fp1201:

FWIW: Those who know me know I don't exactly have a common name, but every time I fill out a 4473 I'm put on delay/further review....I have a UPIN issued by the FBI, FFL, Class A CDL, Pilots Licenses, FAA registration, FCC Registration, CCW in three different States, and until recently a CAC card granting access to Government installations around the World, so WTF!
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I can't speak for any other FFLs, but over the years it seems like the people who most consistently get delayed are LEOs
I've never read a knowledgeable answer that would explain this , but my personal theory is that with the various background checks  they go through to get hired, they're "in the system" that gets checked during the NICS check. it doesn't explain WHY they're in the system, just that they're there. So they get a delay

I figure with all of the certs you ran through in your list, you're in the same boat. The system sees you there but not why you're there, so you catch a delay.
If you're still catching a delay despite the UPIN I find that problematic. The whole reason the UPIN exists is so that they know *you* are you and they shouldn't have to delay you to confirm your ID. After all, you paid some cash and gave them your prints to get that UPIN number assigned to you.
Link Posted: 5/1/2022 10:05:15 AM EDT
[#21]
So just an update.  My wife said I was being a douche () about this whole thing.  So I was recently assembling the ar10 that I got the lower from this place for and made an "oopsie" with the pivot pin install.  I chalk it up to an out of spec LPK and my overuse of hammer whacking.  Anyways, I was annoyed and wanted to finish the job that day, so I called this shop and a few others, and to my surprise, they had a new Aero M5 308 lower in stock now.  Lady recognized my voice and said they decided to stock a couple after I had mine transferred in.

So I scooted over, they had just moved to a new place in an actual storefront in a plaza and they now have an entire wall of aero parts, so I picked up an Aero 308 LPK to go with my new lower.  Talked with the owner and counter lady.  Very nice people.  I'm willing to chalk my first experiences with them up to growing pains.  
Link Posted: 5/7/2022 11:08:26 PM EDT
[#22]
I have an enhanced NYS driver's license that lists my full name as last name, first name, middle initial. I bought a rifle from a LGS less than two month's ago and no one was concerned that my DL didn't state my full legal middle name.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
It sounds like you have a Standard New York State drivers license. The Real ID or Enhanced require your full legal name.

As I mentioned above, when I renewed in 2019 I opted for the Real ID. My previous license, which was issued before these new licenses were created, simply had my middle initial. Real ID required my full middle name as it appears on my birth certificate. Since Real ID is the standard the feds require now for accessing federal buildings and boarding a plane, I can understand BATFE mandating it too.
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Link Posted: 5/8/2022 10:39:46 AM EDT
[#23]
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Originally Posted By Aubertine:
I had intended to buy a rifle on sale at Runnings last December and they informed me of the middle initial/name requirement before handing me the rifle to look at.  Very telling when they start with it.  I have purchased many pistols/rifles in the last 2 years (yes I know it might be an issue) without the problem. I took my business elsewhere.

In my many years of living in the north country the vast majority of gun stores have the “soup nazi” arrogance about them.  It is rare that to find someone behind the counter that actually wants to help you find what you want.  I had good luck with the Gander Mountain when it existed.  Lots of friendly people willing to help when your number got called.  

When I purchased a Glock 34MOS a few years back the model was new to the brand.  Not just announced new but widely available new in big stores and online.  I went to a popular local store and asked about ordering one.  I was told there is no such thing and showed a 8 year old catalog to prove it.  I asked it actually did exist can I order it?  The lady said she would call Glock and I should stop back in.  Can you call me?  Nope!  I ordered it online and had it transferred through another dealer in Lafargeville  area.  I was successfull but had to listen to preaching about why Glocks suck and what a waste of time it is to put a red dot on a pistol.  

I could go on forever.  My best guess is there are a bunch of assholes going around pissing off gun dealers before I go in.  Maybe it’s a function of the BS laws.  There are so many law enforcement officers in the area some dealers only sell to them or at least prefer them.  

 I travel for work and very often frequent gun stores in free states to look at the fun stuff.  I never ran in to the attitude anywhere else.
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I never had that problem at runnings.
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