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Posted: 11/16/2020 8:08:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2020 8:11:03 AM EST by zainyD]
I have family in NY and am trying to assist them in putting together an AR. The following information is what my research as yielded so far:

1. In order to have a detachable magazine a rifle must be 'featureless' and may not have a collapsible stock, pistol grip, or muzzle device. Mags are limited to 10rds.
2. If the rifle has a fixed magazine, it may have all the typical AR features (adjustable stock, pistol grip, muzzle device, etc).

My question is geared toward an 'Other', i.e. an AR which is over 26" in overall length, but does not have a stock (either braced or bare buffer tube). My understanding is that an 'Other' may have all the standard AR features including a detachable magazine. Is this correct?

Also, under federal law as long as the 'Other' has an OAL of 26" a forward mounted vertical or angled grip is permissible. Is a vertical or angled grip permissible on an 'Other' in NYS?
Link Posted: 11/16/2020 11:03:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2020 11:07:21 AM EST by DaveM4P99]
Yes build an other. Currently the best workaround. Until they ban that too.

Also an other HAS to have a VFG (or afg?)...an other is not a rifle due to the brace...and not a pistol due to the VFG making it designed to be fired with 2 hands...and not an AOW if it's over 26" oal as it's not concealable.

So it needs a VFG.
Link Posted: 11/16/2020 11:31:48 AM EST
Gun shops are selling "other" AR firearms and I have not yet heard of an arrest and/or conviction.  I personally would not want to take a chance on the legality of the grey area in Federal Law being recognized by New York Courts.  There are members of the New York Hometown whose opinion differs from mine but I am more risk adverse by virtue of having a professional license at stake.  You roll the dice and take your chances any time you end up in the New York Criminal Injustice system.
Link Posted: 11/16/2020 1:23:35 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bushman_269:
Gun shops are selling "other" AR firearms and I have not yet heard of an arrest and/or conviction.  I personally would not want to take a chance on the legality of the grey area in Federal Law being recognized by New York Courts.  There are members of the New York Hometown whose opinion differs from mine but I am more risk adverse by virtue of having a professional license at stake.  You roll the dice and take your chances any time you end up in the New York Criminal Injustice system.
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The risk increases geometrically the closer you get to NYC. Greatest risk in the metro NYC area is Rockland, Westchester, Nassau and Suffolk counties with Westchester and Nassau in the top two.
Link Posted: 11/16/2020 2:53:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/16/2020 2:53:19 PM EST by DaveM4P99]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
The risk increases geometrically the closer you get to NYC. Greatest risk in the metro NYC area is Rockland, Westchester, Nassau and Suffolk counties with Westchester and Nassau in the top two.
View Quote


All the gun stores in Westchester and Rockland sell others. The county range in Westchester doesn't give a shit either. Nor do they care about ar pistols.

That's my experience at least.
Link Posted: 11/16/2020 4:01:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/16/2020 10:02:52 PM EST
Be careful if they're in a city metro area.  Some of them have their own city codes for firearms.  For example, Rochester has 5-round mag limits (for centerfire ammo in semiauto rifles) and you cannot have a flash hider even if the mag is fixed.
Link Posted: 11/19/2020 6:09:05 PM EST
Thank you for the information and advice!

Family is in semi-rural Southern Tier area, upstate.
Link Posted: 11/20/2020 8:46:08 PM EST
http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article265.htm#p265.00


3. "Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having
 one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a  rifle
 having  one  or  more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d)
 any  weapon  made  from  a  shotgun  or  rifle  whether  by  alteration,
 modification,  or  otherwise  if  such  weapon  as altered, modified, or
 otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches;  or  (e)
 an assault weapon. For the purpose of this subdivision the length of the
 barrel  on  a  shotgun  or  rifle  shall  be determined by measuring the
 distance between the muzzle  and  the  face  of  the  bolt,  breech,  or
 breechlock  when  closed  and  when  the shotgun or rifle is cocked; the
 overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the  distance
 between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to
 the  center  line  of  the  bore.  Firearm  does  not include an antique
 firearm.

11. "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and
 intended  to  be  fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and
 made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in  a  fixed  metallic
 cartridge  to  fire  only  a single projectile through a rifled bore for
 each single pull of the trigger.

21. "Semiautomatic" means any  repeating  rifle,  shotgun  or  pistol,
 regardless  of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the
 energy of a firing cartridge or shell to  extract  the  fired  cartridge
 case  or  spent  shell  and chamber the next round, and which requires a
 separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.
   22. "Assault weapon" means
   (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept  a  detachable
 magazine and has at least one of the following characteristics:
   (i) a folding or telescoping stock;
   (ii)  a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
 the weapon;
   (iii) a thumbhole stock;
   (iv) a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be  held  by  the
 non-trigger hand;
   (v) a bayonet mount;
   (vi) a flash suppressor, muzzle break, muzzle compensator, or threaded
 barrel  designed  to  accommodate  a  flash suppressor, muzzle break, or
 muzzle compensator;
   (vii) a grenade launcher; or
   (b) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least  one  of  the  following
 characteristics:
   (i) a folding or telescoping stock;
   (ii) a thumbhole stock;
   (iii)  a  second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the
 non-trigger hand;
   (iv) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of seven rounds;
   (v) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; or
   (c) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a  detachable
 magazine and has at least one of the following characteristics:
   (i) a folding or telescoping stock;
   (ii) a thumbhole stock;
   (iii)  a  second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the
 non-trigger hand;
   (iv) capacity to accept an ammunition magazine that  attaches  to  the
 pistol outside of the pistol grip;
   (v)  a  threaded  barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash
 suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
   (vi) a  shroud  that  is  attached  to,  or  partially  or  completely
 encircles,  the  barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm
 with the non-trigger hand without being burned;
   (vii) a manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is
 unloaded; or
   (viii) a semiautomatic version  of  an  automatic  rifle,  shotgun  or
 firearm;
   (d) a revolving cylinder shotgun;
   (e)  a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic shotgun or a semiautomatic
 pistol or weapon  defined  in  subparagraph  (v)  of  paragraph  (e)  of
 subdivision  twenty-two  of  section  265.00 of this chapter as added by
 chapter one  hundred  eighty-nine  of  the  laws  of  two  thousand  and
 otherwise lawfully possessed pursuant to such chapter of the laws of two
 thousand prior to September fourteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four;
   (f)  a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic shotgun or a semiautomatic
 pistol  or  weapon  defined  in  paragraph  (a),  (b)  or  (c)  of  this
 subdivision,  possessed prior to the date of enactment of the chapter of
 the laws of two thousand thirteen which added this paragraph;
   (g) provided, however, that such term does not include:
   (i) any rifle, shotgun or pistol that  (A)  is  manually  operated  by
 bolt,  pump,  lever  or  slide action; (B) has been rendered permanently
 inoperable; or (C) is  an  antique  firearm  as  defined  in  18  U.S.C.
 921(a)(16);
   (ii)  a  semiautomatic  rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine
 that holds more than five rounds of ammunition;



View Quote
Link Posted: 11/20/2020 8:48:32 PM EST
So your whole arguement is the brace is not a stock and therefore not meant to be fired from the shoulder.

All the DA is going to do is show 2-3 YT videos of people using pistol braces from the shoulder and rest their case.

NYS PL does not have to jive with the ATFs ruling on pistol braces.
Link Posted: 11/20/2020 9:11:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/20/2020 9:18:10 PM EST by zainyD]
Thank you for posting the NYS penal law. I will review it.

What about an 'other' with no brace? Seems like if you have a bare pistol buffer tube or something like a Thorsden cover/cheekrest (non-adjustable) you'd be good to go as long as you are over 26" and have a forward grip for two handed shooting.
Link Posted: 11/20/2020 9:45:05 PM EST
I reviewed the NYS penal law. An "other" does not meet the definition of a "firearm" as it is not a rifle and it's not under 26". Furthermore, it also does not meet the legal definition of an assault weapon.
Link Posted: 11/21/2020 8:10:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By zainyD:
Thank you for posting the NYS penal law. I will review it.

What about an 'other' with no brace? Seems like if you have a bare pistol buffer tube or something like a Thorsden cover/cheekrest (non-adjustable) you'd be good to go as long as you are over 26" and have a forward grip for two handed shooting.
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Either would probably be the safer configuration...but that is only my opinion.
Link Posted: 11/24/2020 1:11:32 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By zainyD:
Thank you for the information and advice!

Family is in semi-rural Southern Tier area, upstate.
View Quote
cops are probably busier with meth than firearms, then.
Link Posted: 11/24/2020 1:16:13 PM EST
The other option would be to build one with...

1. Non-threaded barrel, >=16"
2. Gas block with no bayo lug
3. Spur grip and Patrick Henry trigger guard instead of a pistol grip, or a Thordsen stock
4. Fixed stock, either an A2 style, or put a pin (or a screw, I suppose) in a telescopic one to prevent the adjustment lever from being operated

As far as magazines.  I like the Magpul Pmag links, that join two 10 round (or any size, really) mags by the baseplate.  Together, they're about the same size as a 30rd, and you can double your capacity with a mag flip.  There's also a version for 10rd steel and aluminum mags, but it's not as good.  I have both.
Link Posted: 11/24/2020 2:31:54 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Doppleganger871:
3. Spur grip and Patrick Henry trigger guard instead of a pistol grip, or a Thordsen stock
View Quote
I have a Spur. Pain to work with but it beats nothing at all.
Link Posted: 11/24/2020 3:53:12 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Aardvark:
I have a Spur. Pain to work with but it beats nothing at all.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Aardvark:
Originally Posted By Doppleganger871:
3. Spur grip and Patrick Henry trigger guard instead of a pistol grip, or a Thordsen stock
I have a Spur. Pain to work with but it beats nothing at all.
Add the trigger guard for your middle booger hook.
Link Posted: 11/24/2020 4:31:39 PM EST
Thank you for the additional suggestions.

Sounds like the Pmag couplers might be a good option. I'll look into them.
Link Posted: 11/25/2020 8:28:22 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Doppleganger871:
Add the trigger guard for your middle booger hook.
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Originally Posted By Doppleganger871:
Originally Posted By Aardvark:
Originally Posted By Doppleganger871:
3. Spur grip and Patrick Henry trigger guard instead of a pistol grip, or a Thordsen stock
I have a Spur. Pain to work with but it beats nothing at all.
Add the trigger guard for your middle booger hook.

The spur is a pita to shoot with. Can't find any usable links to the Patrick Henry trigger guard. Any LGS's in the Rochester area carry them?
Link Posted: 11/30/2020 9:19:17 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Doppleganger871:
The other option would be to build one with...

1. Non-threaded barrel, >=16"
2. Gas block with no bayo lug
3. Spur grip and Patrick Henry trigger guard instead of a pistol grip, or a Thordsen stock
4. Fixed stock, either an A2 style, or put a pin (or a screw, I suppose) in a telescopic one to prevent the adjustment lever from being operated

As far as magazines.  I like the Magpul Pmag links, that join two 10 round (or any size, really) mags by the baseplate.  Together, they're about the same size as a 30rd, and you can double your capacity with a mag flip.  There's also a version for 10rd steel and aluminum mags, but it's not as good.  I have both.
View Quote





What are these 10rnd pmag base plate links you speak of?
Link Posted: 11/30/2020 9:46:00 PM EST
Hey lawyers how bout no brace and that penal law part about 26” etc engraved on the tube?  

Would the latter also not eliminate that Immunity rubbish should a LEO decide to stick it to the owner for political purposes?
Link Posted: 12/3/2020 3:37:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/3/2020 4:33:01 PM EST by hydrotx]
You can get the Patrick Henry and and an extended guard, which I prefer at nytriggerguards

A couple of photos for comparison.



Link Posted: 12/4/2020 7:58:59 AM EST
Build it today, they outlaw it tomorrow. FUAC!
Link Posted: 12/8/2020 12:49:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/8/2020 12:50:58 PM EST by MarineCorporal]
Regarding Others...They come with risk regardless of what people here say or the few gun stores that sell them. (Many gun stores also refuse to sell them.)

Some of the gun stores that I have frequented say that although legal federally, out in the field it can be construed as an unregistered pistol that is semiautomatic, can accept a detachable magazine with many banned features, and a forward grip. Penal law 265 specifically describes a pistol with a forward grip as an AW.

But it’s not a pistol you say because of the length and the forward grip! That’s correct federally. However Penal Law 265 specifically describes a firearm with all those features to be a pistol on the state level.

Bottom line, it can be construed as a pistol and if it is in the field, then you will have to defend against it in court. A NY podcast that I listened to that has one of the podcasters employed as a police officer has said the same thing on the podcast.

Current non enforcement to law abiding citizens doesn’t determine legality. But if something else is involved, that can very well be enforced upon.

Just a heads up in case you think that this is as foolproof as a fixed mag AR or as a featureless AR. It isn’t 100 percent foolproof. Risk is involved for those that want to limit risk. Just pointing that out.
Link Posted: 1/22/2021 1:47:11 PM EST
New Year's bump to this thread. Thank you to all who have contributed.

Any way you look at it, building an AR in NY sounds like a nightmare.

What's happened in California and New York can easily happen anywhere in the country, especially now with the anti-gun Biden administration and a Democrat controlled legislature.
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 7:57:58 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Buckshot429:





What are these 10rnd pmag base plate links you speak of?
View Quote

Here toy go.  I bought 6 of 'em, iirc.
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